[PASSED] Liberate KAISERREICH

[Freezic Vast]

Good TLDR, is the longest SC thread I've seen in a while. Looks like it will pass by a good margin then we'll get a lot of repeal attempts.

We already have a draft ready for when this passes. Doubt that it'll go anywhere tho.

[Lord Dominator]

Good TLDR, is the longest SC thread I've seen in a while. Looks like it will pass by a good margin then we'll get a lot of repeal attempts.

We already have a draft ready for when this passes. Doubt that it'll go anywhere tho.

It won't

[Freezic Vast]

We already have a draft ready for when this passes. Doubt that it'll go anywhere tho.

It won't

Gee, thank you for re-affirming what I already know.

[Kavagrad]

No, just the SC confirming that they're a bunch of vigilantes and not governed by any sort of law.

Welcome to international relationships 101! Between states (in NS regions) It's a horizontal relationship. Meaning it is an anarchist structure and in anarchy there is no law.

Damn realists.

[Xoriet]

We're on 51 pages? Anything significant happen in the last 40?

No, just the SC confirming that they're a bunch of vigilantes and not governed by any sort of law.

Spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary

The day when Kaiserreich falls is going to be a day of peace and goodwill. Their grammatical mauling of the German and English languages will end (at least here), their community will be essentially exiled to another attempt at a region where they will continue their condoning of abhorrent "humor" and ideology until "force" brings that to an end, and their new region will be next on our list because people like them don't change.

[Freezic Vast]

No, just the SC confirming that they're a bunch of vigilantes and not governed by any sort of law.

Spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary

The day when Kaiserreich falls is going to be a day of peace and goodwill. Their grammatical mauling of the German and English languages will end, their community will be sent to another region where they will continue their condoning of abhorrent "humor" and ideology, and their new region will be next on our list because people like them don't change.

The point of their so called "humor" is not meant to be taken seriously.

Their region will only fall when their founder leaves, which will not be happening anytime soon.

[Xoriet]

The point of their so called "humor" is not meant to be taken seriously.

Their region will only fall when their founder leaves, which will not be happening anytime soon.

I assume you never read the logs, with dialogue that was clearly an expression of real views.

Incidentally, regions with actual self-respect don't tolerate "humor" that is expressed through hateful and harmful ideological stances.

[Freezic Vast]

The point of their so called "humor" is not meant to be taken seriously.

Their region will only fall when their founder leaves, which will not be happening anytime soon.

I assume you never read the logs, with dialogue that was clearly an expression of real views.

Incidentally, regions with actual self-respect don't tolerate "humor" that is expressed through hateful and harmful ideological stances.

I have read them, and I don't see it, all I see is a bunch of kids trying to be edgy memers.

I've heard more hateful ideals from another region that was far worse than what people on KR have said, this is just nothing.

[Xoriet]

I have read them, and I don't see it, all I see is a bunch of kids trying to be edgy memers.

I've heard more hateful ideals from another region that was far worse than what people on KR have said, this is just nothing.

I feel like at this point I should just make a list of every region that repeats that sentiment because it annoys me beyond belief and wait for their founder to CTE, too. Yours is clearly active - last logged in 26 minutes ago.

In the words of a friend of mine: No UCR lasts forever.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

I assume you never read the logs, with dialogue that was clearly an expression of real views.

Incidentally, regions with actual self-respect don't tolerate "humor" that is expressed through hateful and harmful ideological stances.

I have read them, and I don't see it, all I see is a bunch of kids trying to be edgy memers.

I've heard more hateful ideals from another region that was far worse than what people on KR have said, this is just nothing.

KR isn't the worst group of people here, but "not the worst" =/= "not bad". Nazi Europa is MUCH worse than KR, but one thing at a time.

[Guy]

The point of their so called "humor" is not meant to be taken seriously.

Their region will only fall when their founder leaves, which will not be happening anytime soon.

I assume you never read the logs, with dialogue that was clearly an expression of real views.

Incidentally, regions with actual self-respect don't tolerate "humor" that is expressed through hateful and harmful ideological stances.

As I'm sure you're aware, I have no sympathy for Nazis. Nor do I have any sympathy for anyone who thinks it's "funny" to engage in far-right discourse "as a joke". I just banned someone like that from the TRR Discord.

There are two threshold questions for me here before I can support this proposal.

The first is, even if we assume that an invasion of Kreich will be a positive thing, whether this proposal is likely to do more good than harm. What we know is that there are likely to be people attracted to any space where far-right discourse is tolerated. Moreover, the one thing that people who actually promote such discourse want is exposure. That's why, IRL, they pull media stunts. By putting up this proposal, we have exposed literally thousands of peoples, if not more, to a space that tolerates such discourse. And the majority of those are likely to be young, impressionable, and somewhat politically conscious. The exact type that the far-right prys on. And for what good? To maybe (but quite likely never) be able to invade their region.

The second is whether an invasion of Kreich will even do any good. Of this, too, I have significant doubts. This goes back to the CAIN arguments, and even significantly earlier than that. I've engaged in them ad-infinitum, but will do so again. By engaging in an in-game function -- war, the invasion game -- against them, we legitimise their presence in the game. We know that many "mainstream" NSers use war as an activity catalyst (and personally my worry is that many "anti-Nazi" forces only invade them for their own activity, but I won't mention names.) We know that the invasion game is just that - an online game. Why are we playing online games with Nazis and their enablers? Doesn't this issue deserve a bit more of a serious treatment than that? And, looking at the history of attempts to 'get rid' of the far-right through the invasion game, it's been specatacularly unsuccessful.

There is one solution to far-right presence in NS: Apply pressure on site admin to remove it. Invading their regions is exactly what side admin sees as a validation of their presence - given that side admin benefits from our activity here (including this 52-page thread, and the general existence of the invasion game).

[Freezic Vast]

I have read them, and I don't see it, all I see is a bunch of kids trying to be edgy memers.

I've heard more hateful ideals from another region that was far worse than what people on KR have said, this is just nothing.

I feel like at this point I should just make a list of every region that repeats that sentiment because it annoys me beyond belief and wait for their founder to CTE, too. Yours is clearly active - last logged in 26 minutes ago.

In the words of a friend of mine: No UCR lasts forever.

And neither do certain resolutions, like this. It may pass now, but in the future this resolution will be repealed.

[Xoriet]

I feel like at this point I should just make a list of every region that repeats that sentiment because it annoys me beyond belief and wait for their founder to CTE, too. Yours is clearly active - last logged in 26 minutes ago.

In the words of a friend of mine: No UCR lasts forever.

And neither do certain resolutions, like this. It may pass now, but in the future this resolution will be repealed.

*glances at the overwhelming support margin*

Yeap, keep telling yourself that. Unless Kaiserreich manages to prove to everyone satisfactorily that they aren't what this says, they're stuck.

[Freezic Vast]

And neither do certain resolutions, like this. It may pass now, but in the future this resolution will be repealed.

*glances at the overwhelming support margin*

Yeap, keep telling yourself that. Unless Kaiserreich manages to prove to everyone satisfactorily that they aren't what this says, they're stuck.

How big was the margin to pass Liberate Nazi Europa back in 2013? And then that was repealed 11 months later? Yes, times have changed and the WA has gotten bigger, but if you can repeal a resolution against Nazi Europa, then I have faith that this resolution can be repealed. When, time will tell.

[Alkasia]

How big was the margin to pass Liberate Nazi Europa back in 2013? And then that was repealed 11 months later? Yes, times have changed and the WA has gotten bigger, but if you can repeal a resolution against Nazi Europa, then I have faith that this resolution can be repealed. When, time will tell.

If you're referring to Liberate: Nazi Europe, I advise you to take a look at the region now and see exactly what that liberation accomplished. And then use some critical thinking as to why it was able to be repealed.

https://www.nationstates.net/region=nazi_europe

[Greater vakolicci haven]

I have read them, and I don't see it, all I see is a bunch of kids trying to be edgy memers.

I've heard more hateful ideals from another region that was far worse than what people on KR have said, this is just nothing.

I feel like at this point I should just make a list of every region that repeats that sentiment because it annoys me beyond belief and wait for their founder to CTE, too. Yours is clearly active - last logged in 26 minutes ago.

In the words of a friend of mine: No UCR lasts forever.

Some UCR's are doing a very good job at lasting forever, you know.
Europeia, unknown XKI, Wysteria, Texas all spring to mind as UCRs that have been around since shortly after I joined this game in 2009.

[Lenlyvit]

I feel like at this point I should just make a list of every region that repeats that sentiment because it annoys me beyond belief and wait for their founder to CTE, too. Yours is clearly active - last logged in 26 minutes ago.

In the words of a friend of mine: No UCR lasts forever.

Some UCR's are doing a very good job at lasting forever, you know.
Europeia, unknown XKI, Wysteria, Texas all spring to mind as UCRs that have been around since shortly after I joined this game in 2009.

Europeia at this point is 10 or 11 years old, Wysteria and Texas are both 16 years old, and 10ki is 15 years old. But there's one significant fact that divides them from KREICH: they aren't Nazi/Fascist. They survive because they are good, strong regions whereas KREICH is none of that. They will live until the end of this game probably, but KREICH will not.

P.S I don't know how old Unknown is

[Kurnugia]

Some UCR's are doing a very good job at lasting forever, you know.
Europeia, unknown XKI, Wysteria, Texas all spring to mind as UCRs that have been around since shortly after I joined this game in 2009.

Europeia at this point is 10 or 11 years old, Wysteria and Texas are both 16 years old, and 10ki is 15 years old. But there's one significant fact that divides them from KREICH: they aren't Nazi/Fascist. They survive because they are good, strong regions whereas KREICH is none of that. They will live until the end of this game probably, but KREICH will not.

P.S I don't know how old Unknown is

I mean just look at how much red text they gathered... I never saw that much in the NS-forums over 3 days.

[Forestavia]

1) Region sovereignty is maintained contrary to what you say, as they still have a founder and a founder is the ultimate sovereignty
2) The WA is not about to go on a rampage 'tearing up the world' since there are very very few regions the collective WA could agree on to use them on. This is one of two regions really.
3) Repealing nearly any of the condemnations currently active is a non-starter, nor would it prevent them from viewing such as badges of honor.
4) There is nothing fake about this, nor will they be 'harassed' as you put it, until they could be anyways if and when the founder goes kaput.

1. Until the day comes when they cease to exist. All user-created regions will experience their founders death at some point. When that day happens their region will default to a warzone and KAISERREICH will be invaded. The natives will not have the option of protecting themselves with a password. Their regional sovereignty is under attack.
2. Just two? Really? The number of regions being targeted in this way is already growing.
3. I don't know what to do about the "badge of honor" thing. It is a dilemma. That dilemma is the reason why we are seeing these fake liberations.
4. When their founder ceases to exist, the nations of KAISERREICH will be unable to protect themselves. Their region will be invaded and their culture will be diluted. That sounds a lot like harassment to me.

[Kurnugia]

1) Region sovereignty is maintained contrary to what you say, as they still have a founder and a founder is the ultimate sovereignty
2) The WA is not about to go on a rampage 'tearing up the world' since there are very very few regions the collective WA could agree on to use them on. This is one of two regions really.
3) Repealing nearly any of the condemnations currently active is a non-starter, nor would it prevent them from viewing such as badges of honor.
4) There is nothing fake about this, nor will they be 'harassed' as you put it, until they could be anyways if and when the founder goes kaput.

1. Until the day comes when they cease to exist. All user-created regions will experience their founders death at some point. When that day happens their region will default to a warzone and KAISERREICH will be invaded. The natives will not have the option of protecting themselves with a password. Their regional sovereignty is under attack.
2. Just two? Really? The number of regions being targeted in this way is already growing.
3. I don't know what to do about the "badge of honor" thing. It is a dilemma. That dilemma is the reason why we are seeing these fake liberations.
4. When their founder ceases to exist, the nations of KAISERREICH will be unable to protect themselves. Their region will be invaded and their culture will be diluted. That sounds a lot like harassment to me.

1) I can't assure you if their founder cte's, they won't end up as a Warzone
2)With that only 2 yes. The others have a very low chance to pass
3)Condemnation is a commendation for raiders. I don't see what is wrong with giving skilled raiders a badge of honour.
4)And that is bad because? We saw what is their culture, their dynamic. Be it on the NS-Forum and/or their discord.

[Divitalia]

This’ll pass in an hour, and then we’ll have all the same arguments in the Nazi Europa thread...

[Forestavia]

1. Until the day comes when they cease to exist. All user-created regions will experience their founders death at some point. When that day happens their region will default to a warzone and KAISERREICH will be invaded. The natives will not have the option of protecting themselves with a password. Their regional sovereignty is under attack.
2. Just two? Really? The number of regions being targeted in this way is already growing.
3. I don't know what to do about the "badge of honor" thing. It is a dilemma. That dilemma is the reason why we are seeing these fake liberations.
4. When their founder ceases to exist, the nations of KAISERREICH will be unable to protect themselves. Their region will be invaded and their culture will be diluted. That sounds a lot like harassment to me.

1) I can't assure you if their founder cte's, they won't end up as a Warzone
2)With that only 2 yes. The others have a very low chance to pass
3)Condemnation is a commendation for raiders. I don't see what is wrong with giving skilled raiders a badge of honour.
4)And that is bad because? We saw what is their culture, their dynamic. Be it on the NS-Forum and/or their discord.

I want to zoom in on 4. I think they've been caught in a couple of instances being trollish and immature on the discord server. Now the question we need to ask ourselves is this:
Do these instances of trollish immaturity on the part of some members of the KAISERREICH region warrant the use of a Security Council liberation? I'm telling you right now, I don't like the direction of these so-called "liberations". This is a can of worms that we simply should not be opening. It has already set a trend of other, similar such "liberations". We are punishing an entire region for the actions of a few. And also consider that the trolls on discord may not even be members of KAISERREICH two months from now. What then? Are we going to punish an entire region for the actions of a few former members of that region?

[Kurnugia]

1) I can't assure you if their founder cte's, they won't end up as a Warzone
2)With that only 2 yes. The others have a very low chance to pass
3)Condemnation is a commendation for raiders. I don't see what is wrong with giving skilled raiders a badge of honour.
4)And that is bad because? We saw what is their culture, their dynamic. Be it on the NS-Forum and/or their discord.

I want to zoom in on 4. I think they've been caught in a couple of instances being trollish and immature on the discord server. Now the question we need to ask ourselves is this:
Do these instances of trollish immaturity on the part of some members of the KAISERREICH region warrant the use of a Security Council liberation? I'm telling you right now, I don't like the direction of these so-called "liberations". This is a can of worms that we simply should not be opening. It has already set a trend of other, similar such "liberations". We are punishing an entire region for the actions of a few. And also consider that the trolls on discord may not even be members of KAISERREICH two months from now. What then? Are we going to punish an entire region for the actions of a few former members of that region?

They were high ranking members of the region. Read at least a bit before you make such claims of "Trolls". As such yes it does.

[The Noble Thatcherites]

Liberate KAISERREICH was passed 14,706 votes to 4,499.

Congrats Lenny!

[Lenlyvit]

Liberate KAISERREICH was passed 14,706 votes to 4,499.

Congrats Lenny!

Thanks