[PASSED] Liberate KAISERREICH

[Lord Dominator]

Quite apart from being an argument that doesn't even really work when you are six (The others did a mean thing, why are you punishing me?) This pointless whataboutery regarding communism falls flat on its face when you examine it.

No one is denying that Stalinist USSR committed atrocities. The difference here is that communism and other left wing ideologies do not have mass murder as an ideological pillar. You don't need gulags and purges to do communism in the same way as you don't need apartheid or genocide to do capitalism. The fact that these atrocities occur is a failure in implementation.

For fascism, mass murder and subjugation is the ideology working as intended.

Technically Fascism, from what I understand, seeks to separate different categories of people from one another, and have each ethnicity live within their own individual lands without intermingling or interbreeding. Their end-game is racial purity, not necessarily the extinction of all other races. Mass murder in of itself isn't a necessary tenet, but the few leaders who executed it in Europe ended up using it, but they didn't define or invent Fascism, and not all modern-day Fascists support genocide.

Kaiserreich joked about genocide, but they are not a Fascist region.

I, as self-appointed main defender have never sought to claim that the region itself is fascist and/or Nazi, merely that it knowingly and willfully harbors such elements.

[Novowarsawianka]

Quite apart from being an argument that doesn't even really work when you are six (The others did a mean thing, why are you punishing me?) This pointless whataboutery regarding communism falls flat on its face when you examine it.

No one is denying that Stalinist USSR committed atrocities. The difference here is that communism and other left wing ideologies do not have mass murder as an ideological pillar. You don't need gulags and purges to do communism in the same way as you don't need apartheid or genocide to do capitalism. The fact that these atrocities occur is a failure in implementation.

For fascism, mass murder and subjugation is the ideology working as intended.

Technically Fascism, from what I understand, seeks to separate different categories of people from one another, and have each ethnicity live within their own individual lands without intermingling or interbreeding. Their end-game is racial purity, not necessarily the extinction of all other races. Mass murder in of itself isn't a necessary tenet, but the few leaders who executed it in Europe ended up using it, but they didn't define or invent Fascism, and not all modern-day Fascists support genocide.

Kaiserreich joked about genocide, but they are not a Fascist region.

As someone who has actually read up on fascism and even mingled with the fascist community on here, no. Proper fascism places national identity above all others. Mussolini claimed that races do not exist as anything more than a social concept. For a fascist, the person of a different race which integrates is worth more than a native "traitor".
But, there are ethnonationalist fascists, and clerofascists and all different breeds of them.

Nazism is the most well known offshoot of ethnonationalist fascism.

[Stonok]

Technically Fascism, from what I understand, seeks to separate different categories of people from one another, and have each ethnicity live within their own individual lands without intermingling or interbreeding. Their end-game is racial purity, not necessarily the extinction of all other races. Mass murder in of itself isn't a necessary tenet, but the few leaders who executed it in Europe ended up using it, but they didn't define or invent Fascism, and not all modern-day Fascists support genocide.

Kaiserreich joked about genocide, but they are not a Fascist region.

As someone who has actually read up on fascism and even mingled with the fascist community on here, no. Proper fascism places national identity above all others. Mussolini claimed that races do not exist as anything more than a social concept. For a fascist, the person of a different race which integrates is worth more than a native "traitor".
But, there are ethnonationalist fascists, and clerofascists and all different breeds of them.

Nazism is the most well known offshoot of ethnonationalist fascism.

My information came from mingling with the ethnonationalist fascist community. I kind of assumed all Fascists were ethnonationalists.

[The 19th Century]

Every UCR dies eventually, players get bored and move on.

The difference is though that people generally choose to leave, which helps with the regions downfall.

If Kaiserreich dies, that will also be because people -- or at least their founder -- chose to leave.

[The 19th Century]

*blusters into page 41 of a Security Council thread*

HEY EVERYONE, HAS ANYONE CONSIDERED THESE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN BROUGHT UP AND REFUTED OVER AND OVER ACROSS THE PAST FORTY PAGES OF THIS THREAD??? WHAT ABOUT THE FEELINGS OF THESE POOR, SAD NAZIS??????

HEY EVERYONE, DON'T FORGET, EVERYONE IN A REGION WHICH WE ACCUSE OF NAZISM OR COLLABORATION IS LITERALLY A SKINHEAD THAT BEATS MINORITIES DEATH IN THEIR FREE TIME. IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME YOU'RE ALSO A NAZI APOLOGIST!!!!!!

Nobody except you said that.

[Jar Wattinree]

Speaking about "clerofascists", I've read the Doctrine of Fascism, and though it tries terribly hard to claim to be an ally of the Church it instead claims authority only religion can claim, i.e. it pretends to be an ally while setting itself up as a religion.

[Caracasus]

Quite apart from being an argument that doesn't even really work when you are six (The others did a mean thing, why are you punishing me?) This pointless whataboutery regarding communism falls flat on its face when you examine it.

No one is denying that Stalinist USSR committed atrocities. The difference here is that communism and other left wing ideologies do not have mass murder as an ideological pillar. You don't need gulags and purges to do communism in the same way as you don't need apartheid or genocide to do capitalism. The fact that these atrocities occur is a failure in implementation.

For fascism, mass murder and subjugation is the ideology working as intended.

Technically Fascism, from what I understand, seeks to separate different categories of people from one another, and have each ethnicity live within their own individual lands without intermingling or interbreeding. Their end-game is racial purity, not necessarily the extinction of all other races. Mass murder in of itself isn't a necessary tenet, but the few leaders who executed it in Europe ended up using it, but they didn't define or invent Fascism, and not all modern-day Fascists support genocide.

Kaiserreich joked about genocide, but they are not a Fascist region.

Fascism places one 'race' above others, relying on long discredited scientific theory to back up their judgements regarding huge chunks of humanity being lesser than others.

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out what comes after, even if you somehow ignore the calls for genocide present in Nazism right from the start.

[Novowarsawianka]

Technically Fascism, from what I understand, seeks to separate different categories of people from one another, and have each ethnicity live within their own individual lands without intermingling or interbreeding. Their end-game is racial purity, not necessarily the extinction of all other races. Mass murder in of itself isn't a necessary tenet, but the few leaders who executed it in Europe ended up using it, but they didn't define or invent Fascism, and not all modern-day Fascists support genocide.

Kaiserreich joked about genocide, but they are not a Fascist region.

Fascism places one 'race' above others, relying on long discredited scientific theory to back up their judgements regarding huge chunks of humanity being lesser than others.

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out what comes after, even if you somehow ignore the calls for genocide present in Nazism right from the start.

Nonsense. Fascism places one nation above all, and anyone willing to submit to the nation is seen as welcome. You confuse Nazism with Fascism, Nazism cares only about race. Early on nazis and fascists were not friends. Austrofascists persecuted nazis just as much as communists. Mussolini even laughed at Hitler's nonsense and mocked him, of course, Mussolini is an opportunist so he later gave in (just as he gave in on matters of the crown and church).

Fascism became a whole spectrum of ideas, not just a single ideology. Just like there are different brands of socialism.

[Lord Dominator]

gently nudges the conversation over to General, where it probably belongs
Just an observation on conversation direction, and how it's starting to go off track from the purpose of the thread

[Caracasus]

Fascism places one 'race' above others, relying on long discredited scientific theory to back up their judgements regarding huge chunks of humanity being lesser than others.

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out what comes after, even if you somehow ignore the calls for genocide present in Nazism right from the start.

Nonsense. Fascism places one nation above all, and anyone willing to submit to the nation is seen as welcome. You confuse Nazism with Fascism, Nazism cares only about race. Early on nazis and fascists were not friends. Austrofascists persecuted nazis just as much as communists. Mussolini even laughed at Hitler's nonsense and mocked him, of course, Mussolini is an opportunist so he later gave in (just as he gave in on matters of the crown and church).

Fascism became a whole spectrum of ideas, not just a single ideology. Just like there are different brands of socialism.

And mussolini's implementation of fascism and the attempt to empire build in Africa were very much justified along racial lines. It may not have been as prominent as the racism found in Nazi ideology, but you would have to make one hell of an effort not to see it.

1920 - Mussolini:

When dealing with such a race as Slavic - inferior and barbarian - we must not pursue the carrot, but the stick policy.... We should not be afraid of new victims.... The Italian border should run across the Brenner Pass, Monte Nevoso and the Dinaric Alps.... I would say we can easily sacrifice 500,000 barbaric Slavs for 50,000 Italians....

But yes. Lord dominator is correct. KR harbours or actively supports the ethnonationalist strain of fascism.

[Forestavia]

snip

*blusters into page 41 of a Security Council thread*

HEY EVERYONE, HAS ANYONE CONSIDERED THESE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN BROUGHT UP AND REFUTED OVER AND OVER ACROSS THE PAST FORTY PAGES OF THIS THREAD??? WHAT ABOUT THE FEELINGS OF THESE POOR, SAD NAZIS??????

Hey, I'm going to be making just as strong an argument against the resolution "liberating" The Red Fleet from itself. So at least give me points for consistency.

And secondly, the people in KAISERREICH are not Nazis. This body is punishing an entire region for the alleged actions of a few.

And thirdly, it isn't the business of the Security Council to interfere in the internal affairs of a sovereign region, liberating a region from itself.

I think a lot of people in this chamber feel really good about themselves, like their doing "the right thing" or something. This body should pass a CONDEMNATION if it feels the need to condemn a region. Liberating a region from itself is not the way. It will tear our world apart and the lives of the innocent will be left struggling to swim in its wake.

I will crawl out of my hole and argue against every single one of these warzone creations if I have to because that is exactly what these types of "liberations" are.

I have never seen or had any communications with KAISERREICH over the years that would indicate that they actually promote Naziism in the real world. Of course I'm not that close with them to begin with. But we should remember that they have been targeted in the past in a political way. This should cause everyone to stop and think about the suspicious nature of this resolution. I think there might be political motives behind it.

This weaponized use of the World Assembly is not good for our world and it isn't good for the cause of peace.

[Lord Dominator]

*blusters into page 41 of a Security Council thread*

HEY EVERYONE, HAS ANYONE CONSIDERED THESE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN BROUGHT UP AND REFUTED OVER AND OVER ACROSS THE PAST FORTY PAGES OF THIS THREAD??? WHAT ABOUT THE FEELINGS OF THESE POOR, SAD NAZIS??????

Hey, I'm going to be making just as strong an argument against the resolution "liberating" The Red Fleet from itself. So at least give me points for consistency.

And secondly, the people in KAISERREICH are not Nazis. This body is punishing an entire region for the alleged actions of a few.

And thirdly, it isn't the business of the Security Council to interfere in the internal affairs of a sovereign region, liberating a region from itself.

I think a lot of people in this chamber feel really good about themselves, like their doing "the right thing" or something. This body should pass a CONDEMNATION if it feels the need to condemn a region. Liberating a region from itself is not the way. It will tear our world apart and the lives of the innocent will be left struggling to swim in its wake.

I will crawl out of my hole and argue against every single one of these warzone creations if I have to because that is exactly what these types of "liberations" are.

I have never seen or had any communications with KAISERREICH over the years that would indicate that they actually promote Naziism in the real world. Of course I'm not that close with them to begin with. But we should remember that they have been targeted in the past in a political way. This should cause everyone to stop and think about the suspicious nature of this resolution. I think there might be political motives behind it.

This weaponized use of the World Assembly is not good for our world and it isn't good for the cause of peace.

1) Consistency is good
2)The argument I've gone with is that they knowingly harbor such elements, not that the region itself is
3) This is perhaps the best reason to oppose, kudos to you for that
4) We would, except Condemnations are generally seen as badges of honor nowadays
5) Feel free to do so
6) Of course it's political, it's about the ideologies that the region harbor that most voters seem to want gone from the site. To avoid retyping, here are some collected thoughts regarding RW stuff:
viewtopic.php?p=33660363#p33660363

[Forestavia]

<snip>.

Unfortunately, KAISERREICH has been given numerous chances to stamp out these neo-Nazis in their midst. Even something as simple as locking those public Discord channels behind masks could have helped them avoid this mess in the first place. But KAISERREICH has done nothing to sort out these internal affairs, at least nothing that the Security Council can see.

Also, you've mistaken the Liberation. This resolution will take away the World Assembly Delegate and Regional Officers' ability to impose a password on the region. The Founder's powers of passwording remains unaffected. This Liberation is a warning to KAISERREICH, that if its Founder leaves or CTEs, his region's fall will be his own fault. So far, he has not left, so the resolution is toothless.

But we've been repeating these arguments ad infinitum for a while now.

Well, I didn't realize that. Hm. Well, then I guess as long as their founder is responsible their region won't have anything to worry about.

Well then, in light of this new information....

Doesn't this just illustrate the pointlessness of this whole thing? Everyone says that a condemnation is a badge of honor. Well then, what is a Liberation but an even fancier, more elite badge of honor? In this particular situation, that is all this is. If the Founder still has the capability of instituting a password, then this Liberation does absolutely nothing and is nothing but a fancy badge of honor.

The arguments that we've heard so far have suggested that KAISERREICH behaved badly. Should we then reward them with the most elite badge of honor that one can receive on NationStates?

[Tim-Opolis]

I've got a question for all the people acting all outraged in this thread, and pleading for people to vote against,what do you actually hope to accomplish?

This is going to pass. The GCRs will block any repeal attempts just like they have facilitated the passage of this current proposal. Why waste your time?

When Kaiserreich's founder inevitably CTEs one day, whether by natural causes or by the hammer of Moderation, the region will be torched. It won't even take that long, honestly. I doubt I'm the only person out there with a high-influence sleeper in the region.

Y'all aren't gonna convince us that the region isn't fascist, and the vast majority of you outraged folks don't know even close to enough about R/D to be able to stop us when the founder does CTE. If you don't want to be targeted, don't spout fascist ideology, don't harbor fascists in your regions, and do not associate with fascists.

You whine that this is Tyranny by Majority. You're damn right it is. If you don't like it, find a different game. Your outrage isn't gonna change shit.

[Lord Dominator]

I've got a question for all the people acting all outraged in this thread, and pleading for people to vote against,what do you actually hope to accomplish?

This is going to pass. The GCRs will block any repeal attempts just like they have facilitated the passage of this current proposal. Why waste your time?

When Kaiserreich's founder inevitably CTEs one day, whether by natural causes or by the hammer of Moderation, the region will be torched. It won't even take that long, honestly. I doubt I'm the only person out there with a high-influence sleeper in the region.

Y'all aren't gonna convince us that the region isn't fascist, and the vast majority of you outraged folks don't know even close to enough about R/D to be able to stop us when the founder does CTE. If you don't want to be targeted, don't spout fascist ideology, don't harbor fascists in your regions, and do not associate with fascists.

You whine that this is Tyranny by Majority. You're damn right it is. If you don't like it, find a different game. Your outrage isn't gonna change shit.

Gah, the one point I forgot to make in this long, long thread. If only it wouldn't be ignored by the next page & uniformed person who comes...

[Novowarsawianka]

Nonsense. Fascism places one nation above all, and anyone willing to submit to the nation is seen as welcome. You confuse Nazism with Fascism, Nazism cares only about race. Early on nazis and fascists were not friends. Austrofascists persecuted nazis just as much as communists. Mussolini even laughed at Hitler's nonsense and mocked him, of course, Mussolini is an opportunist so he later gave in (just as he gave in on matters of the crown and church).

Fascism became a whole spectrum of ideas, not just a single ideology. Just like there are different brands of socialism.

And mussolini's implementation of fascism and the attempt to empire build in Africa were very much justified along racial lines. It may not have been as prominent as the racism found in Nazi ideology, but you would have to make one hell of an effort not to see it.

1920 - Mussolini:

When dealing with such a race as Slavic - inferior and barbarian - we must not pursue the carrot, but the stick policy.... We should not be afraid of new victims.... The Italian border should run across the Brenner Pass, Monte Nevoso and the Dinaric Alps.... I would say we can easily sacrifice 500,000 barbaric Slavs for 50,000 Italians....

But yes. Lord dominator is correct. KR harbours or actively supports the ethnonationalist strain of fascism.

His imperialism was "justified" on his want for a New Roman Empire.

Mussolini also said:
"Race? It is a feeling, not a reality.... National pride has not need for the delirium of race"

Slavs are not a people, but a linguistic group, or a cultural one in a very broad sense. Italy tried to Italianize the population, by force if need be, forcing them to have Italian names, speak Italian and so on. Of course anyone who disobeyed was sent to a death camp, but same happened in the USSR to those who did not submit to their rule.

Sure, later there were racial laws added, marking the beginning of the end for Mussolini. Even then, prominent fascists like Italo Balbo, nicknamed the Crown Prince of Fascism, and the actual father of Fascism, Giovanni Gentile, were against it.

In fact, Mussolini himself was against them, saying:
"I agree with you entirely. I don't believe a bit in the stupid anti-Semitic theory. I am carrying out my policy entirely for political reasons."
But again, Mussolini was very much an opportunist.

The world basically forced Italy to ally with Hitler while in fact Mussolini was one of the first to call for an attack on Germany, being ignored at the time by the world. You know, at the same time when Stalin was sending resources to Hitler and Chamberlain was giving him the keys to Central Europe.

So all things considered, Fascism is not racist, it is still authoritarian and tyrannical, but the ideology itself, unlike Nazism, is not rooted on racist lunacy.

[Forestavia]

I've got a question for all the people acting all outraged in this thread, and pleading for people to vote against,what do you actually hope to accomplish?

This is going to pass. The GCRs will block any repeal attempts just like they have facilitated the passage of this current proposal. Why waste your time?

When Kaiserreich's founder inevitably CTEs one day, whether by natural causes or by the hammer of Moderation, the region will be torched. It won't even take that long, honestly. I doubt I'm the only person out there with a high-influence sleeper in the region.

Y'all aren't gonna convince us that the region isn't fascist, and the vast majority of you outraged folks don't know even close to enough about R/D to be able to stop us when the founder does CTE. If you don't want to be targeted, don't spout fascist ideology, don't harbor fascists in your regions, and do not associate with fascists.

You whine that this is Tyranny by Majority. You're damn right it is. If you don't like it, find a different game. Your outrage isn't gonna change shit.

I'm glad you asked! I am hoping to wake people up to
1. the pointlessness of liberating regions from themselves.
2. the pointlessness of rewarding bad regions with badges of honor including the fanciest badge of all: the Liberation.
3. the terrible trend of using the WA Security Council as a political weapon to use when one disagrees with another's ideology.
4. the blatant attack on regional sovereignty. Regions should manage their own internal affairs.

and especially 5.
I vote against most things that pass through this body. Whether it is a Commendation, Condemnation, or Liberation, sometimes I'll make an exception here and there but it's all kind of pointless. But this, what we are seeing here in this chamber today, is absolutely alarming. This is an abuse of power by a world government body over the little people. It's warzone creation. It's flies in the face of everything the Security Council is supposed to stand for:
"The Security Council recognizes and responds to individual nations and regions, with the aim of ensuring global harmony."

I hope to increase the awareness that what this body is doing is wrong. I know that this is probably going to pass. That isn't the point. There are moments when you have to take a stand.

We need to vote against this resolution. At worst it is an abuse of power and at best it rewards bad behavior. It's pointless and it's a waste of time.

[Caracasus]

I dunno. I think this resolution, whatever its eventual outcome, is an awesome way for the community to make it clear that Kaiserreich's politics are about as welcome as a dose of the clap on a honeymoon.

[Vandario]

I've got a question for all the people acting all outraged in this thread, and pleading for people to vote against,what do you actually hope to accomplish?

This is going to pass. The GCRs will block any repeal attempts just like they have facilitated the passage of this current proposal. Why waste your time?

When Kaiserreich's founder inevitably CTEs one day, whether by natural causes or by the hammer of Moderation, the region will be torched. It won't even take that long, honestly. I doubt I'm the only person out there with a high-influence sleeper in the region.

Y'all aren't gonna convince us that the region isn't fascist, and the vast majority of you outraged folks don't know even close to enough about R/D to be able to stop us when the founder does CTE. If you don't want to be targeted, don't spout fascist ideology, don't harbor fascists in your regions, and do not associate with fascists.

You whine that this is Tyranny by Majority. You're damn right it is. If you don't like it, find a different game. Your outrage isn't gonna change shit.

Truly your arrogance and self righteousness will one day be your hubris. Gods forbid one day you find yourself on the other side of things, and find yourself wanting. Sometimes a man must simply make a stand even if he must stand alone, even if failure or death is the only outcome of it.

[Lord Dominator]

I've got a question for all the people acting all outraged in this thread, and pleading for people to vote against,what do you actually hope to accomplish?

This is going to pass. The GCRs will block any repeal attempts just like they have facilitated the passage of this current proposal. Why waste your time?

When Kaiserreich's founder inevitably CTEs one day, whether by natural causes or by the hammer of Moderation, the region will be torched. It won't even take that long, honestly. I doubt I'm the only person out there with a high-influence sleeper in the region.

Y'all aren't gonna convince us that the region isn't fascist, and the vast majority of you outraged folks don't know even close to enough about R/D to be able to stop us when the founder does CTE. If you don't want to be targeted, don't spout fascist ideology, don't harbor fascists in your regions, and do not associate with fascists.

You whine that this is Tyranny by Majority. You're damn right it is. If you don't like it, find a different game. Your outrage isn't gonna change shit.

Truly your arrogance and self righteousness will one day be your hubris. Gods forbid one day you find yourself on the other side of things, and find yourself wanting. Sometimes a man must simply make a stand even if he must stand alone, even if failure or death is the only outcome of it.

Dude, this is a game. Nopony is really going to care about this in a couple years.

[Vandario]

Truly your arrogance and self righteousness will one day be your hubris. Gods forbid one day you find yourself on the other side of things, and find yourself wanting. Sometimes a man must simply make a stand even if he must stand alone, even if failure or death is the only outcome of it.

Dude, this is a game. Nopony is really going to care about this in a couple years.

Maybe you won't, but I find this to be a symptom of a bigger problem going on in society outside this political simulation.

[Lord Dominator]

Dude, this is a game. Nopony is really going to care about this in a couple years.

Maybe you won't, but I find this to be a symptom of a bigger problem going on in society outside this political simulation.

Well yes, Neo-Nazi rise could be considered something of a problem, though I doubt that was what you're thinking of there.

[Vandario]

Maybe you won't, but I find this to be a symptom of a bigger problem going on in society outside this political simulation.

Well yes, Neo-Nazi rise could be considered something of a problem, though I doubt that was what you're thinking of there.

Can you not see beyond that? Everyone is scared. We're all scared of where the world is going and react to it differently. Because of that one group of people react to their fear in such a way that another sees them as a threat or part of the problem. So they bicker and fight terrified of each other, and the other side is made justified in their beliefs because they are being attacked. Left, Right is all irrelevant, people are scared of each other and being pushed to extremes they other wise wouldn't because in our terror we lash out at one another. Somebody, something must try to uphold some semblance of order and justice to prevent things from descending into chaos. In doing so they are then attacked out of fear as they now seem like the ones responsible, or part of some problem real or not. The people trying to keep said order also afraid as they are human too, but someone needs to try and keep the peace and not let it all spin out of control. Try as they may it could only make it worse. In the end Fear is what drives us all, we're terrified of each other and react in different ways. This is all just a symptom of the increasing fear these days, and the people make it worse by lashing out at one another.

[Lord Dominator]

Well yes, Neo-Nazi rise could be considered something of a problem, though I doubt that was what you're thinking of there.

Can you not see beyond that? Everyone is scared. We're all scared of where the world is going and react to it differently. Because of that one group of people react to their fear in such a way that another sees them as a threat or part of the problem. So they bicker and fight terrified of each other, and the other side is made justified in their beliefs because they are being attacked. Left, Right is all irrelevant, people are scared of each other and being pushed to extremes they other wise wouldn't because in our terror we lash out at one another. Somebody, something must try to uphold some semblance of order and justice to prevent things from descending into chaos. In doing so they are then attacked out of fear as they now seem like the ones responsible, or part of some problem real or not. The people trying to keep said order also afraid as they are human too, but someone needs to try and keep the peace and not let it all spin out of control. Try as they may it could only make it worse. In the end Fear is what drives us all, we're terrified of each other and react in different ways. This is all just a symptom of the increasing fear these days, and the people make it worse by lashing out at one another.

I'm well aware of the rising tide of fear, some of your comments well mimic a conversation I'm watching on my own region's RMB. Ultimately though, I don't think the problem you outline is the fundamental reason for this proposal here, but I do respect that you have good, logical reasons for voting against as you do.

[Prydania]

My information came from mingling with the ethnonationalist fascist community..

Those aren't people you should be associating with, just an fyi.