[PASSED] Liberate KAISERREICH

[United Massachusetts]

The definition of witches is too broad, then. If the NS community at large truly believes that edgy amateur-Fascists of a barely pubescent age are a threat, then I suppose I can understand why your ad populum holds so well. But there is nothing threatening about them! Especially knowing that the upper echelon of KR doesn't seriously endorse or force this type of thought.

I am willing to admit that rights are indeed not 'inherent' - but in our society, whether face-to-face or on the Web, they are 'important' to the point where I'd be happy if they were inherent. This one's on me.

I understand your position. Let me make that clear. But I just fundamentally disagree. I don't find anything particularly harmless about a library's full of vile anti-semitic jokes that members of KR responded to without (with a few exceptions I will happily note) a hint of apology or retraction. I am not interested in the indoctrination tactics inherent that encourage people to normalize such vile bigotry, or that the response has been an all-around refusal to condone or concede. This is on top of a previously poor reputation as associating with fascist regions, which were recanted and then instantly tarnished by screenshots that most people find inextricably vile.

I, similarly, understand yours. And I agree that a whole lot needs to change in KR, but this is the wrong way to do it. I will acknowledge that KR has plenty of fascist influence, but it is not openly fascist. In fact, most of the leadership isn't. If we are to use this liberation-as-a-weapon tool, which I've already stated is most likely a slippery slope, it ought to only be against openly fascist (or openly Stalinist) regions. As bad as KR may be, it doesn't fit either of these categories.

[The Great-German Empire]

I understand your position. Let me make that clear. But I just fundamentally disagree. I don't find anything particularly harmless about a library's full of vile anti-semitic jokes that members of KR responded to without (with a few exceptions I will happily note) a hint of apology or retraction. I am not interested in the indoctrination tactics inherent that encourage people to normalize such vile bigotry, or that the response has been an all-around refusal to condone or concede. This is on top of a previously poor reputation as associating with fascist regions, which were recanted and then instantly tarnished by screenshots that most people find inextricably vile.

Then all we can do is agree to disagree; that is, you will drum up support for this motion, and I (If I, indeed, can be bothered) will oppose it. I can see where you're coming from as well, and I too completely reject your position.

[Kavagrad]

I think the majority of NS are far too moderate to straight-up try and liberate most right-wing regions (which is clearly your priority here), except those that are fascist. If you think that those views will be seen as comparable to fascism by the majority of NS, then I can only disagree.

Thing is that there are already people trying to assault the right here. Tim has publicly stated that he wanted a CTE for Right to Life, for instance. Again, the argument is appealing to try and liberate the right-wing here--the conservatives are bad (something the majority of NS agrees to), and stopping bad people is good. Ergo, Liberate (insert conservative group here).

I genuinely think that this is a very cynical view. I can only speak for myself, but as someone who is very staunchly anti-fascist, even I would not support a liberation on the regions you mention (except Libertatem, but that's a personal issue, not a political one). The idea that the majority of NS will wholeheartedly support liberation attacks on moderate conservative regions simply doesn't fly with me. Hell, we have socialists in this very thread opposing this proposal.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Thing is that there are already people trying to assault the right here. Tim has publicly stated that he wanted a CTE for Right to Life, for instance. Again, the argument is appealing to try and liberate the right-wing here--the conservatives are bad (something the majority of NS agrees to), and stopping bad people is good. Ergo, Liberate (insert conservative group here).

I genuinely think that this is a very cynical view. I can only speak for myself, but as someone who is very staunchly anti-fascist, even I would not support a liberation on the regions you mention (except Libertatem, but that's a personal issue, not a political one). The idea that the majority of NS will wholeheartedly support liberation attacks on moderate conservative regions simply doesn't fly with me. Hell, we have socialists in this very thread opposing this proposal.

Antifa has raided libertarian and conservative regions in the past.

[The Great-German Empire]

I genuinely think that this is a very cynical view. I can only speak for myself, but as someone who is very staunchly anti-fascist, even I would not support a liberation on the regions you mention (except Libertatem, but that's a personal issue, not a political one). The idea that the majority of NS will wholeheartedly support liberation attacks on moderate conservative regions simply doesn't fly with me. Hell, we have socialists in this very thread opposing this proposal.

All this means is that there are people of all ideologies who are fair and people of all ideologies who are underhanded. We must acknowledge the existence of the former, but the latter is a very large threat because they will not hesitate to bully the former.

[Sarakart]

I understand your position. Let me make that clear. But I just fundamentally disagree. I don't find anything particularly harmless about a library's full of vile anti-semitic jokes that members of KR responded to without (with a few exceptions I will happily note) a hint of apology or retraction. I am not interested in the indoctrination tactics inherent that encourage people to normalize such vile bigotry, or that the response has been an all-around refusal to condone or concede. This is on top of a previously poor reputation as associating with fascist regions, which were recanted and then instantly tarnished by screenshots that most people find inextricably vile.

I, similarly, understand yours. And I agree that a whole lot needs to change in KR, but this is the wrong way to do it. I will acknowledge that KR has plenty of fascist influence, but it is not openly fascist. In fact, most of the leadership isn't. If we are to use this liberation-as-a-weapon tool, which I've already stated is most likely a slippery slope, it ought to only be against openly fascist (or openly Stalinist) regions. As bad as KR may be, it doesn't fit either of these categories.

I think I see the World Assembly as a far more activist organization than you do. It's important to remember that much of the support arises from a perception that KR has failed to waive. It is not enough that it is a raider- there are plenty of raiders. It is not enough that it is Imperial Germany-themed- there are some more outrageous themes, but no one's going to condemn the Roman Empire for pinning Christ to a cross. It is that, with their prior associations and symbology, with their size and influence, and with their current intransigence on the behavior of many of their members in their discord, usually doubling down or saying indeed, the jokes about gassing 6 million Jews are hilarious (some of them even eating punishments for flaming!), they have exhausted the good faith of a significant portion of the Security Council's members. It is not other proposals that concern me here, but KAISERREICH and KAISERREICH alone. Others can be dealt with on their own terms, but there is no need to go down a "list" before reaching KR.

I understand your position. Let me make that clear. But I just fundamentally disagree. I don't find anything particularly harmless about a library's full of vile anti-semitic jokes that members of KR responded to without (with a few exceptions I will happily note) a hint of apology or retraction. I am not interested in the indoctrination tactics inherent that encourage people to normalize such vile bigotry, or that the response has been an all-around refusal to condone or concede. This is on top of a previously poor reputation as associating with fascist regions, which were recanted and then instantly tarnished by screenshots that most people find inextricably vile.

Then all we can do is agree to disagree; that is, you will drum up support for this motion, and I (If I, indeed, can be bothered) will oppose it. I can see where you're coming from as well, and I too completely reject your position.

That's all I would likewise expect.

[United Massachusetts]

Thing is that there are already people trying to assault the right here. Tim has publicly stated that he wanted a CTE for Right to Life, for instance. Again, the argument is appealing to try and liberate the right-wing here--the conservatives are bad (something the majority of NS agrees to), and stopping bad people is good. Ergo, Liberate (insert conservative group here).

I genuinely think that this is a very cynical view. I can only speak for myself, but as someone who is very staunchly anti-fascist, even I would not support a liberation on the regions you mention (except Libertatem, but that's a personal issue, not a political one). The idea that the majority of NS will wholeheartedly support liberation attacks on moderate conservative regions simply doesn't fly with me. Hell, we have socialists in this very thread opposing this proposal.

I don't know. You say so, but frankly, I'm not too sure. And, knowing the leftism of NS today (more people voted for slavery than for anti-abortionism in the WA), nothing surprises me any more.

[Lenlyvit]

So in a sense, I could just password the region when I know I will be gone for a while, such as for military training purposes etc.

You could, yes. But it would have almost the same affect as the liberation. Your ROs and delegate would never be able to change it without the liberation stripping it away. Your region would no longer collect new nations, and your officers will be too afraid to let any nations in with the fear of said new nations being spies of Antifa or Ruining Nazi Sandcastles or The Red Fleet. Your region, for all intents and purposes, will decline into nothing just as effectively as an invading army clearing it out.

[United Massachusetts]

I, similarly, understand yours. And I agree that a whole lot needs to change in KR, but this is the wrong way to do it. I will acknowledge that KR has plenty of fascist influence, but it is not openly fascist. In fact, most of the leadership isn't. If we are to use this liberation-as-a-weapon tool, which I've already stated is most likely a slippery slope, it ought to only be against openly fascist (or openly Stalinist) regions. As bad as KR may be, it doesn't fit either of these categories.

I think I see the World Assembly as a far more activist organization than you do. It's important to remember that much of the support arises from a perception that KR has failed to waive. It is not enough that it is a raider- there are plenty of raiders. It is not enough that it is Imperial Germany-themed- there are some more outrageous themes, but no one's going to condemn the Roman Empire for pinning Christ to a cross. It is that, with their prior associations and symbology, with their size and influence, and with their current intransigence on the behavior of many of their members in their discord, usually doubling down or saying indeed, the jokes about gassing 6 million Jews are hilarious (some of them even eating punishments for flaming!), they have exhausted the good faith of a significant portion of the Security Council's members. It is not other proposals that concern me here, but KAISERREICH and KAISERREICH alone. Others can be dealt with on their own terms, but there is no need to go down a "list" before reaching KR.

But just there have we reached the issue--Libertatem and Right to Life were considered "Nazi collaborators" for having embassies with KR. It's not hard to imagine this being weaponized to the destruction of the moderate right. We have to be careful is my primary argument; by passing this well-intentioned proposal, we may be opening a can of worms that we can't close.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

I think I see the World Assembly as a far more activist organization than you do. It's important to remember that much of the support arises from a perception that KR has failed to waive. It is not enough that it is a raider- there are plenty of raiders. It is not enough that it is Imperial Germany-themed- there are some more outrageous themes, but no one's going to condemn the Roman Empire for pinning Christ to a cross. It is that, with their prior associations and symbology, with their size and influence, and with their current intransigence on the behavior of many of their members in their discord, usually doubling down or saying indeed, the jokes about gassing 6 million Jews are hilarious (some of them even eating punishments for flaming!), they have exhausted the good faith of a significant portion of the Security Council's members. It is not other proposals that concern me here, but KAISERREICH and KAISERREICH alone. Others can be dealt with on their own terms, but there is no need to go down a "list" before reaching KR.

But just there have we reached the issue--Libertatem and Right to Life were considered "Nazi collaborators" for having embassies with KR. It's not hard to imagine this being weaponized to the destruction of the moderate right. We have to be careful is my primary argument; by passing this well-intentioned proposal, we may be opening a can of worms that we can't close.

I would disagree it's even well-intentioned.

[Belshekistan]

I support this in full

[Sarakart]

I think I see the World Assembly as a far more activist organization than you do. It's important to remember that much of the support arises from a perception that KR has failed to waive. It is not enough that it is a raider- there are plenty of raiders. It is not enough that it is Imperial Germany-themed- there are some more outrageous themes, but no one's going to condemn the Roman Empire for pinning Christ to a cross. It is that, with their prior associations and symbology, with their size and influence, and with their current intransigence on the behavior of many of their members in their discord, usually doubling down or saying indeed, the jokes about gassing 6 million Jews are hilarious (some of them even eating punishments for flaming!), they have exhausted the good faith of a significant portion of the Security Council's members. It is not other proposals that concern me here, but KAISERREICH and KAISERREICH alone. Others can be dealt with on their own terms, but there is no need to go down a "list" before reaching KR.

But just there have we reached the issue--Libertatem and Right to Life were considered "Nazi collaborators" for having embassies with KR. It's not hard to imagine this being weaponized to the destruction of the moderate right. We have to be careful is my primary argument; by passing this well-intentioned proposal, we may be opening a can of worms that we can't close.

I understand the concern, but I believe we can judge those circumstances as they come. If you want to dispute future proposals, your best bet would be to attack the wording of the drafts as they come in, because if you feel there is a false association with fascism, and it's stated in the draft, most SC voters will be unable to discern how true that is and will not read the forum. So if, for example, someone comes up and says Pro Life is Nazi in their draft, you'd have to dispute that there.

[Kavagrad]

I genuinely think that this is a very cynical view. I can only speak for myself, but as someone who is very staunchly anti-fascist, even I would not support a liberation on the regions you mention (except Libertatem, but that's a personal issue, not a political one). The idea that the majority of NS will wholeheartedly support liberation attacks on moderate conservative regions simply doesn't fly with me. Hell, we have socialists in this very thread opposing this proposal.

Antifa has raided libertarian and conservative regions in the past.

Antifa are the majority of NS? News to me.

[Jar Wattinree]

Just because many people back it doesn't mean it's any use, Again, it's just your tired as populum argument.

Populum argument -- it is not because the dislike of Nazism is popular means we are universally against it, it is because Nazism is an inherently evil ideology that makes it unpopular. I don't know how you've conflated it into an argumentum ad populum fallacy.

Indeed, people can lose quite a bit of reputation with just memes. I personally don't consider it the right order of things, but if it is, so what? KR merely refuses to stamp such behavior out, that doesn't count as downright supporting all of it!

How many more times will we need to go through this "but what about this exception?" argument. In KAIERREICH's case, not self-moderating its members' behavior is equal to passive and implicit support. KReich has repeatedly failed to defend itself, with several of its members stepping over the line with regards to site rules. As Sarakart has said, KReich has exhausted our good faith and we are no longer interested in hearing excuses.

I have nothing further to say on your comments, because now it is just special pleading.

[United Massachusetts]

Just because many people back it doesn't mean it's any use, Again, it's just your tired as populum argument.

Populum argument -- it is not because the dislike of Nazism is popular means we are universally against it, it is because Nazism is an inherently evil ideology that makes it unpopular. I don't know how you've conflated it into an argumentum ad populum fallacy.

The issue is that it will invariably lead to argumentum ad populum-styled resolutions.

[West Leas Oros]

Antifa has raided libertarian and conservative regions in the past.

Antifa are the majority of NS? News to me.

Them and their allies. How else could they get a commendation?

[United Massachusetts]

But just there have we reached the issue--Libertatem and Right to Life were considered "Nazi collaborators" for having embassies with KR. It's not hard to imagine this being weaponized to the destruction of the moderate right. We have to be careful is my primary argument; by passing this well-intentioned proposal, we may be opening a can of worms that we can't close.

I understand the concern, but I believe we can judge those circumstances as they come. If you want to dispute future proposals, your best bet would be to attack the wording of the drafts as they come in, because if you feel there is a false association with fascism, and it's stated in the draft, most SC voters will be unable to discern how true that is and will not read the forum. So if, for example, someone comes up and says Pro Life is Nazi in their draft, you'd have to dispute that there.

I'd prefer we not deal with such lunacy to begin with.

[Jar Wattinree]

Populum argument -- it is not because the dislike of Nazism is popular means we are universally against it, it is because Nazism is an inherently evil ideology that makes it unpopular. I don't know how you've conflated it into an argumentum ad populum fallacy.

The issue is that it will invariably lead to argumentum ad populum-styled resolutions.

I hope not either.

[Kavagrad]

Antifa are the majority of NS? News to me.

Them and their allies. How else could they get a commendation?

Considering this was before the whole "Antifa are the "real" fascists!" idea jumped into high gear, it was probably not as toxic a name to support then.

I don't know of any recent attempts at repealing that commendation that lost at vote. If there have been, do correct me. I still don't think that would imply support for all of their raids by the majority of NS, however.

[West Leas Oros]

Them and their allies. How else could they get a commendation?

Considering this was before the whole "Antifa are the "real" fascists!" idea jumped into high gear, it was probably not as toxic a name to support then.

I don't know of any recent attempts at repealing that commendation that lost at vote. If there have been, do correct me. I still don't think that would imply support for all of their raids by the majority of NS, however.

You'd be surprised about the power of the lesser of two evils fallacy.

[Kavagrad]

Considering this was before the whole "Antifa are the "real" fascists!" idea jumped into high gear, it was probably not as toxic a name to support then.

I don't know of any recent attempts at repealing that commendation that lost at vote. If there have been, do correct me. I still don't think that would imply support for all of their raids by the majority of NS, however.

You'd be surprised about the power of the lesser of two evils fallacy.

I didn't know everyone here had to be "Team Antifa" or "Team Fascist". They aren't the only two ideologies on NS, you know that, right?

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Them and their allies. How else could they get a commendation?

Considering this was before the whole "Antifa are the "real" fascists!" idea jumped into high gear, it was probably not as toxic a name to support then.

I don't know of any recent attempts at repealing that commendation that lost at vote. If there have been, do correct me. I still don't think that would imply support for all of their raids by the majority of NS, however.

MT army's commendation was relatively recent.

[West Leas Oros]

You'd be surprised about the power of the lesser of two evils fallacy.

I didn't know everyone here had to be "Team Antifa" or "Team Fascist". They aren't the only two ideologies on NS, you know that, right?

According to Antifa, you are either with them, or you are a fascist apologetic. It's like the US political system. 3rd parties exist, but none can topple the two big parties. It is also a war of sorts, the two sides are warring with each other. If you dislike team fascist, or support Antifa, you join them. If you dislike Antifa, or support the fascists, you join them. If you dislike both, you usually stay out of the fight. If you like both, you're a madman. I dislike both, but rather than stay out of the fight, I am joining my own side. Unfortunately, third teams usually capitulate easily, leaving the two fighters alone in the ring.

[Fauxia]

I didn't know everyone here had to be "Team Antifa" or "Team Fascist". They aren't the only two ideologies on NS, you know that, right?

According to Antifa, you are either with them, or you are a fascist apologetic. It's like the US political system. 3rd parties exist, but none can topple the two big parties. It is also a war of sorts, the two sides are warring with each other. If you dislike team fascist, or support Antifa, you join them. If you dislike Antifa, or support the fascists, you join them. If you dislike both, you usually stay out of the fight. If you like both, you're a madman. I dislike both, but rather than stay out of the fight, I am joining my own side. Unfortunately, third teams usually capitulate easily, leaving the two fighters alone in the ring.

If you’re talking about NS, that’s just not true at all

[Kavagrad]

I didn't know everyone here had to be "Team Antifa" or "Team Fascist". They aren't the only two ideologies on NS, you know that, right?

According to Antifa, you are either with them, or you are a fascist apologetic. It's like the US political system. 3rd parties exist, but none can topple the two big parties. It is also a war of sorts, the two sides are warring with each other. If you dislike team fascist, or support Antifa, you join them. If you dislike Antifa, or support the fascists, you join them. If you dislike both, you usually stay out of the fight. If you like both, you're a madman. I dislike both, but rather than stay out of the fight, I am joining my own side. Unfortunately, third teams usually capitulate easily, leaving the two fighters alone in the ring.

In which case, do you have evidence of Antifa attacking Leftist regions, simply for not aligning with them?