[DEFEATED] Liberate Westphalia

[Killer Kitty]

The problem is those GCRs are currently under the impression that TNP/TWP will make their life difficult politically if they don't support Westphalia being blown to kingdom come; to influence them, TSP/TRR will have to demonstrate to them that life will be just as difficult taking any side at all on Westphalia.

Bring it on, Unibot.

[Arcellia]

You don't need TEP and NPO to vote for "Liberate Westphalia" - you just need them to appreciate, loud and clear, choosing either side is going to mess up their foreign policy agenda over a single backwater region.

You know, normally you're a little more tactful about your tendency toward subversive activities.

If you want to encourage TSP and TRR to threaten TEP, I hope you appreciate the immediate loss of respect by the natives of TEP toward either region. Encouraging the defender and defender-leaning GCRs to pressure the GCRs that haven't taken a side in R/D is a terrible idea.

[Pergamon]

You don't need TEP and NPO to vote for "Liberate Westphalia" - you just need them to appreciate, loud and clear, choosing either side is going to mess up their foreign policy agenda over a single backwater region.

Because threatening the Pacific or crossing us in any way has worked so well for so many individuals.
The Pacific does as it pleases.

[Queen Yuno]

You don't need TEP and NPO to vote for "Liberate Westphalia" - you just need them to appreciate, loud and clear, choosing either side is going to mess up their foreign policy agenda over a single backwater region.

Your subversive attempts will not spread beyond yourself, especially when you're attempting to force it onto regions. The East Pacific is a sovereign community, with respect between our alliances, and we would never abstain our WA voting rights over a "gameplay ideology"- much less a *threatened* one that you so desire- our TEP citizens have the permanent right to determine our own choices- every WA endorsement on my nation earns them that right, and our GCR allies respect this independent decision making. We would rather stick up for our GCR allies and treatied friends who would unquestionably protect/support TEP than to overlook your outrageous and dubious "advice" to GCR regions about sabotaging foreign relations over WA votes regarding regions who are treaty allies to no one. TEP: Requests/suggestions are accepted but threats are not. This is only one reason you are TEP Public Enemy #1. But it's funny how in one post you've revealed not only your deceptive talk, but also your open boasts about region subversion of the Pacifics and Sinkers right out here in public hoping your seditious ideas stick, but no one's as foolish enough to take after your vilification.

[Roavin]

If I may butt in briefly as Prime Minister of the South Pacific:

TEP: Requests/suggestions are accepted but threats are not.

And it is in that spirit that we approach TEP or NPO, not just regarding WA matters but any matters. Anything else is disrespectful.

[Frattastan II]

And I second what Roavin said, of course. Friends do not threaten each other.
After all, if another region did the same to us, we wouldn't like it one bit.

[Escade]

It's kind of ironic actually, my ideology in this game has largely been determined by clear negative reactions to threats, intimidation, and force of any kind. The way it feels to be made to be afraid is not fun at all.

TSP has not and will not threaten, intimidate, or try to force any of its allies to do anything. Ever. Why?

Allies are about people who you like and enjoy playing with with. You can discuss and give them your thoughts but real friends don't bully each other.

Our goals as a region is to develop a positive and vibrant and active community. That's it. Allies for me are people who we enjoy hanging out with and talking to and like would love to help as long as it's in line with our thoughts and doesn't harm us.

[Unibot III]

You don't need TEP and NPO to vote for "Liberate Westphalia" - you just need them to appreciate, loud and clear, choosing either side is going to mess up their foreign policy agenda over a single backwater region.

Your subversive attempts will not spread beyond yourself, especially when you're attempting to force it onto regions. The East Pacific is a sovereign community, with respect between our alliances, and we would never abstain our WA voting rights over a "gameplay ideology"- much less a *threatened* one that you so desire- our TEP citizens have the permanent right to determine our own choices- every WA endorsement on my nation earns them that right, and our GCR allies respect this independent decision making. We would rather stick up for our GCR allies and treatied friends who would unquestionably protect/support TEP than to overlook your outrageous and dubious "advice" to GCR regions about sabotaging foreign relations over WA votes regarding regions who are treaty allies to no one. TEP: Requests/suggestions are accepted but threats are not. This is only one reason you are TEP Public Enemy #1. But it's funny how in one post you've revealed not only your deceptive talk, but also your open boasts about region subversion of the Pacifics and Sinkers right out here in public hoping your seditious ideas stick, but no one's as foolish enough to take after your vilification.

I just don't have the patience to pretend anymore. TEP made its sovereign decision based on a perception of backlash it would receive from TNP/TWP - you told a number of people just that.

You and your administration made a simple calculation on the part of TEP that backlash from TNP/TWP was worse for TEP than the backlash that could be reasonably expected from TSP/TRR. If you didn't want people to get this impression, you shouldn't have tried to use other GCRs' position to justify your own.

Defenders don't have the leverage they used to with unaffiliated GCRs. Unaffiliated GCRs fear political retaliation from Gladio et. al., they don't fear defenders. It's not "dubious" advice whatsoever, you need diplomatic and political leverage to shepherd sensitive legislation through the geopolitics of the World Assembly.

You don't need TEP and NPO to vote for "Liberate Westphalia" - you just need them to appreciate, loud and clear, choosing either side is going to mess up their foreign policy agenda over a single backwater region.

Because threatening the Pacific or crossing us in any way has worked so well for so many individuals.
The Pacific does as it pleases.

The Pacific was offered a deal for its position on Westphalia - and invaders were able to outbid defenders due to possessing more leverage.

You know, normally you're a little more tactful about your tendency toward subversive activities.

If you want to encourage TSP and TRR to threaten TEP, I hope you appreciate the immediate loss of respect by the natives of TEP toward either region. Encouraging the defender and defender-leaning GCRs to pressure the GCRs that haven't taken a side in R/D is a terrible idea.

I'm old enough to remember what real subversion looks like (i.e., Brave Little Toaster- directed by TEP officials.) TEP and NPO have continued to try to take WA cooperation off the table for relations with Defender GCRs. It'd be a mistake for defenders to not use Westphalia as a stepping stone to discussing WA cooperation. Defenders will have to make it loud and clear that WA cooperation has to be a element of cooperation, otherwise these kinds of resolutions are just going to pose new diplomatic obstacles.

[RiderSyl]

You don't know a damn thing about Yuno and her administration. You certainly don't know about current defenders, to be portraying them as scared of "political retaliation" from anywhere. Have you seen how unabashed TGW are? You're building your own world based on things you don't know and telling us all what we should do. It's stupid.

Also if "Brave Little Toaster" is your most frightening example of TEP subversion then nobody has to worry

[Unibot III]

You don't know a damn thing about Yuno and her administration. You certainly don't know about current defenders, to be portraying them as scared of "political retaliation" from anywhere. Have you seen how unabashed TGW are? You're building your own world based on things you don't know and telling us all what we should do. It's stupid.

I have seen how unabashed they are, but not in this context. TGW likes to distinguish itself from UDL where ever it can. In the case of the Gameplay forum, that means playing it smarmy rather than straight. In the case of GCR politics, that means playing softball even when your opponents are playing hardball. I can't tell you who I am in contact with and who I am not, but I know I'm informed enough to tell you why TEP voted the way it did and why it's a problem that's indicative of defenders' political problems. They're not sticking out for themselves in the diplomatic arena and as a result, they're not getting a handle on the WA cooperation file. Where is the WALL alternative, for instance?

Also if "Brave Little Toaster" is your most frightening example of TEP subversion then nobody has to worry

That was a serious case of voter importation targeting defender incumbents.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

We made a deal with the pacific? When? Where? What did we give them? Becuase as far as I knew, they were a toss-up vote for us that we only hoped would go against due to their general views on raised regions being responsible for their insecurity.

[The Atlae Isles]

Your subversive attempts will not spread beyond yourself, especially when you're attempting to force it onto regions. The East Pacific is a sovereign community, with respect between our alliances, and we would never abstain our WA voting rights over a "gameplay ideology"- much less a *threatened* one that you so desire- our TEP citizens have the permanent right to determine our own choices- every WA endorsement on my nation earns them that right, and our GCR allies respect this independent decision making. We would rather stick up for our GCR allies and treatied friends who would unquestionably protect/support TEP than to overlook your outrageous and dubious "advice" to GCR regions about sabotaging foreign relations over WA votes regarding regions who are treaty allies to no one. TEP: Requests/suggestions are accepted but threats are not. This is only one reason you are TEP Public Enemy #1. But it's funny how in one post you've revealed not only your deceptive talk, but also your open boasts about region subversion of the Pacifics and Sinkers right out here in public hoping your seditious ideas stick, but no one's as foolish enough to take after your vilification.

I just don't have the patience to pretend anymore. TEP made its sovereign decision based on a perception of backlash it would receive from TNP/TWP - you told a number of people just that.

You and your administration made a simple calculation on the part of TEP that backlash from TNP/TWP was worse for TEP than the backlash that could be reasonably expected from TSP/TRR. If you didn't want people to get this impression, you shouldn't have tried to use other GCRs' position to justify your own.

Defenders don't have the leverage they used to with unaffiliated GCRs. Unaffiliated GCRs fear political retaliation from Gladio et. al., they don't fear defenders. It's not "dubious" advice whatsoever, you need diplomatic and political leverage to shepherd sensitive legislation through the geopolitics of the World Assembly.

Showing support for a military ally's participation is "based on a perception of backlash?" Who knew?

[Cormactopia Prime]

Showing support for a military ally's participation is "based on a perception of backlash?" Who knew?

But you do understand how that works to confine The East Pacific to voting according to one alignment's ideology, right? All The Black Hawks have to do is get one of TEP's allies to throw somebody into their occupation -- shouldn't be too hard given Osiris is run by a former Black Hawk -- and that means instant support for the occupation by TEP. At that point TEP isn't neutral anymore. No matter your reasons, if you're constantly voting for one side over the other, you're on that side. If you want a truly neutral region, you can't let your allies' actions define your decisions. That's passivity, not neutrality.

Right now it may not seem like a big deal. It's just Westphalia, right? But if this was just a test case to see how TEP would respond, now they've seen, and they will use this tactic to guarantee TEP's support in the future for things that may matter more. You're forcing yourselves into their corner by playing this game of "our allies were involved in the occupation." Yes, and some of your allies would have been involved in a liberation as well, if a liberation would have been possible. Some of your allies voted for the liberation resolution. But you sided with your other allies. That sends a message.

[RiderSyl]

I've learned that a lot of GCR drama is the result of bored cynical players seeing what they want to see, spreading that perspective as absolute truth, and convincing enough people to create a self-fulfilling prophecy. The best name I can come up with for it is "drama-mongering".

I'm explaining that so it makes more sense when I say this

<snip>

Stop drama-mongering, Cormac

[Killer Kitty]

TSP has not and will not threaten, intimidate, or try to force any of its allies to do anything. Ever.

Except for Lazarus, where TSP keeps trying to force us to become their ally.

[Roavin]

I've learned that a lot of GCR drama is the result of bored cynical players seeing what they want to see, spreading that perspective as absolute truth, and convincing enough people to create a self-fulfilling prophecy. The best name I can come up with for it is "drama-mongering".

eeey, stop breaking the fourth wall

TSP has not and will not threaten, intimidate, or try to force any of its allies to do anything. Ever.

Except for Lazarus, where TSP keeps trying to force us to become their ally.

wat

[Cormactopia Prime]

I've learned that a lot of GCR drama is the result of bored cynical players seeing what they want to see, spreading that perspective as absolute truth, and convincing enough people to create a self-fulfilling prophecy. The best name I can come up with for it is "drama-mongering".

I'm explaining that so it makes more sense when I say this

<snip>

Stop drama-mongering, Cormac

To be honest, I like The East Pacific and was just trying to provide them with some advice, because I think they're on a collision course if they're not careful due to the contradictory alliances they've adopted. This whole Security Council voting situation is a sign of things to come, I think.

It's not all about drama all the time with me. If I wanted to dramatize, my rhetoric would have been harsher.

[Arcellia]

I'm old enough to remember what real subversion looks like (i.e., Brave Little Toaster- directed by TEP officials.) TEP and NPO have continued to try to take WA cooperation off the table for relations with Defender GCRs. It'd be a mistake for defenders to not use Westphalia as a stepping stone to discussing WA cooperation. Defenders will have to make it loud and clear that WA cooperation has to be a element of cooperation, otherwise these kinds of resolutions are just going to pose new diplomatic obstacles.

Oh you can just be quiet. I'm old enough to remember you successfully subverting TEP to defenderism, taking advantage of new players and the IRL situations of slightly older but also inexperienced players, which almost broke the region in half. In fact, I was there, and I was one of those noobs who had no idea what you were like in the political sense. You wanted to blackmail Todd out of the admin team because you believed he took a bribe of adminship in Osiris to accept the OFO. You talked to people about removing Bach as Delegate and Babiana as General. That amounts to trying to remove an Arbiter, the Delegate, and the General - all democratically elected positions.

You take advantage of people to push your agenda. You even told me that people are replaceable yourself.

I have definitely heard all about you in TNP and if you think to complain about a lack of defending there, it's your fault for souring them to defenders.

Incidentally, you know perfectly well that OBT never came to fruition; that it lasted all of a few days of talk and vanished into the nether until Cormac brought it up again. You only bring that up to score political points with TSP. Well, in case you haven't noticed, you weren't banned for politics.

As a reminder, It was Belschaft's idea, and those interested initially included Tsu and HEM. And oh, wait, why did OBT come to be at all? Because people in TSP believed that you were subverting TSP in classic Unibot style.

Oh, and before I forget, when have you ever pretended to like TEP after your arrest warrant - for sedition and being a public nuisance - was posted? I'm under no illusions that you've ever pretended to like us.

[Malphe]

*Inconspicuously eating popcorn in the corner*

[Lord Dominator]

*Inconspicuously eating popcorn in the corner*

Same

[Fauxia]

*Inconspicuously eating popcorn in the corner*

Your flag works pretty well with that...

[Glen-Rhodes]

Incidentally, you know perfectly well that OBT never came to fruition; that it lasted all of a few days of talk and vanished into the nether until Cormac brought it up again. You only bring that up to score political points with TSP. Well, in case you haven't noticed, you weren't banned for politics.

I mean, Unibot never did get rid of Todd, or Babiana, or Bach. So if you're just going to dismiss out of hand the seriousness of Todd and other high-level TEPers creating a forum to organize a silent coup in TSP, just because they didn't end up going through with it, then you ought to reevaluate your position on calling Unibot a subversive for publicly expressing his desire to see officials in TEP thrown out of office. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

As a reminder, It was Belschaft's idea, and those interested initially included Tsu and HEM. And oh, wait, why did OBT come to be at all? Because people in TSP believed that you were subverting TSP in classic Unibot style.

Actually, it had almost everything to do with me. :-*

Anyways

Defenders need to get their stuff together. It was ridiculous in the first place that high-level defenders were lobbying against the original when it was at vote. It's a sign of political ineptitude that a stack wasn't organized for this time around. I know that the defender establishment is just blaming the author for not organizing a stack himself. That's a cop-out.

[Malphe]

*Inconspicuously eating popcorn in the corner*

Your flag works pretty well with that...

Ooh, it does, doesnt it? Didn't even notice how well it fits.
Do I get to claim it was intentional?

[Arcellia]

I mean, Unibot never did get rid of Todd, or Babiana, or Bach. So if you're just going to dismiss out of hand the seriousness of Todd and other high-level TEPers creating a forum to organize a silent coup in TSP, just because they didn't end up going through with it, then you ought to reevaluate your position on calling Unibot a subversive for publicly expressing his desire to see officials in TEP thrown out of office. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I mean, TEP officials never did get around to getting rid of Unibot or importing voters, either. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I never denied that the TEP members who participated in these talks were in the wrong. In fact, I believe that as Delegate one of my first actions was to formally apologize to the South Pacific for their part in it. For another fact, one of my mistakes as Delegate was alienating some of the participants because I was so upset with them for what they did.

What I will not accept is the continued insinuation on Unibot's part that TEP was wholly responsible for this. Everything done was the actions of a few, who, if unfortunately placed, did not act on behalf of our region. TEP was not responsible and Unibot is the last person who has a right to tell me or anyone else that subversive behavior was restricted to TEP in that situation. Unless you want to say HEM, who is the founder of the treaty ally of TSP, Europeia, and at the time the heir to LKE, was subverting the region on behalf of both regions, that logic is not accurate.

The only reason Unibot didn't have his way was because he was formally charged in TEP and he ran away because conviction of sedition would violate his UDL pledge. Unibot seems to not attend his trials when sedition is a charge.

Sorry for having to bring it up, Glen. But for the record, Unibot started it and he knows perfectly well that OBT triggers me like nothing else.

[Escade]

Except for Lazarus, where TSP keeps trying to force us to become their ally.

wat

Exactly, Roavin. I'm so confuzzled.


I'm pretty sure the undead dominion of the desiccated clearly understands that TSP wouldn't touch them even with a hazmat suit on.

Ewww.