[DEFEATED] Liberate Westphalia

[Killer Kitty]

I'm pretty sure the undead dominion of the desiccated clearly understands that TSP wouldn't touch them even with a hazmat suit on.

Oh? Does that mean TSP recognise the Dominion of Lazarus as the official government of Lazarus and no longer support the faction attempting to coup the government, whom in the past TSP gave both legitimacy and military assistance to?

In any case, I'm glad Westphalia stays passworded. It will remain a good example for those thinking about destroying forums in the future.

[Cormactopia Prime]

In any case, I'm glad Westphalia stays passworded. It will remain a good example for those thinking about destroying forums in the future.

The example being that they can retire and abandon the natives of their region, and other regions will target those natives -- who had nothing to do with the act of forum destruction and weren't even playing NationStates at the time, as has been documented -- as an absurd way to satisfy their quest for vengeance by taking out their years long grievances on people who had nothing to do with it?

The actual forum destroyer still has faced no consequences for his actions from this. A region he abandoned and clearly cared nothing about anymore was targeted, and the only people who have been punished here are the natives of Westphalia who aren't forum destroyers. Congratulations.

[Evil Wolf]

The example being that they can retire and abandon the natives of their region, and other regions will target those natives -- who had nothing to do with the act of forum destruction and weren't even playing NationStates at the time, as has been documented -- as an absurd way to satisfy their quest for vengeance by taking out their years long grievances on people who had nothing to do with it

I will note that this is almost the exact word-for-word argument that The Proletariat Coalition paraded out to avoid the (justified) destruction of their region. "Oh, some of us weren't around when RLA destroyed all those forums. Oh, RLA dissolved so we can't be held responsible for being a former member. Oh, none of those forum destroyers are in the region any more and even though we housed, encouraged, promoted, and never disavowed them, their actions aren't our fault."

I didn't buy the argument then, and I don't buy it now.

[Escade]

I'm pretty sure the undead dominion of the desiccated clearly understands that TSP wouldn't touch them even with a hazmat suit on.

Oh? Does that mean TSP recognise the Dominion of Lazarus as the official government of Lazarus and no longer support the faction attempting to coup the government, whom in the past TSP gave both legitimacy and military assistance to?

So after purging Lazarus of all of its beautiful and interesting people, you and company are now left twiddling your thumbs and trying to call attention to yourself through any means possible including hijacking conversations that have nothing to do with you. Anyone who takes you seriously is doing themselves and their people a disservice.

[Killer Kitty]

So after purging Lazarus of all of its beautiful and interesting people, you and company are now left twiddling your thumbs and trying to call attention to yourself through any means possible including hijacking conversations that have nothing to do with you.

You're mistaken. We only ejected all the homely and boring people.

[RiderSyl]

So after purging Lazarus of all of its beautiful and interesting people, you and company are now left twiddling your thumbs and trying to call attention to yourself through any means possible including hijacking conversations that have nothing to do with you.

You're mistaken. We only ejected all the homely and boring people.

Why is Lamb still there then?

[Ikania]

no longer support the faction attempting to coup the government

No sir, I don't think they've ever supported you, but it's a nice thought.

[Killer Kitty]

Why is Lamb still there then?

I have heard Lamb accused of many thing, but I don't think anyone has ever accused him of being boring.

No sir, I don't think they've ever supported you, but it's a nice thought.

An admirable attempt to rewrite both the narrative and history, Ike, but you're no Unibot and your best efforts fall short.

[Cormactopia Prime]

The example being that they can retire and abandon the natives of their region, and other regions will target those natives -- who had nothing to do with the act of forum destruction and weren't even playing NationStates at the time, as has been documented -- as an absurd way to satisfy their quest for vengeance by taking out their years long grievances on people who had nothing to do with it

I will note that this is almost the exact word-for-word argument that The Proletariat Coalition paraded out to avoid the (justified) destruction of their region. "Oh, some of us weren't around when RLA destroyed all those forums. Oh, RLA dissolved so we can't be held responsible for being a former member. Oh, none of those forum destroyers are in the region any more and even though we housed, encouraged, promoted, and never disavowed them, their actions aren't our fault."

I didn't buy the argument then, and I don't buy it now.

Were the natives of Westphalia even informed of the past forum destruction and given a chance to disavow it? Or do you just expect them to know about something that happened long before any of them were ever playing? Westphalia wasn't a gameplay region. It's more than reasonable to assume none of its natives even knew their Founder was a forum destroyer until this happened. It's a completely different situation from The Proletariat Coalition.

Keep in mind that, by all accounts, not a single native has been playing long enough to have been here for the act of forum destruction.

[Ikania]

An admirable attempt to rewrite both the narrative and history, Ike, but you're no Unibot and your best efforts fall short.

I don't need to rewrite history, the truth is plain as day to see despite your distortion. Is this all you do now? Go into gameplay threads and bring up Lazarus where Lazarus isn't relevant?

Regardless, one bad egg seems to make for a very useful casus belli in destruction of regions. It's the same case as when the early Grey Wardens destroyed Madrigal with that kind of absurd justification. Cormac has come out of his seasonal cocoon and is now saying agreeable things (damn him), but he's right. Actively trying to use such ridiculous reasoning as pinning the crimes of the founder on an active and peaceful regional community doesn't only make your raid unjustified, it makes you look like you're dishonest liars. It's not hard to be straightforward; big, founderless region open for the taking. Thus, raid. Then the only thing they can accuse you of is bullying, and the cycle continues. But there's no logic to blaming the natives themselves for this kind of thing. This isn't any kind of punishment doled out for forum destruction, not bringing anyone to justice. It's just a raid.

Oh, and this gem.

You're mistaken. We only ejected all the homely and boring people.

This fails to account for why Lazarus is currently at its most homely and boring.

[Killer Kitty]

Is this all you do now? Go into gameplay threads and bring up Lazarus where Lazarus isn't relevant?

*Confused* This...isn't Gameplay.

[This fails to account for why Lazarus is currently at its most homely and boring.

Are you trying to image shame my sinker region?

Actively trying to use such ridiculous reasoning as pinning the crimes of the founder on an active and peaceful regional community

I'm sorry, how is that a "ridiculous reasoning" if the founder was a forum destroyer and the region never disavowed him? Again, I'm having TPC/RLA flashbacks.

[Ikania]

It's a thread pertinent to gameplay. Don't play semantics.

The essential question is, was the community even given the chance to disavow him? Were they even aware? Cormac's questions haven't been answered. I don't really expect one either, the expectations placed upon the natives are ridiculous to begin with.

[Killer Kitty]

It's a thread pertinent to gameplay. Don't play semantics.

If you say so...

The essential question is, was the community even given the chance to disavow him?

Sure, it's those few years of time they had between their founder destroying a forum and them being raided. Anything thereafter is an insincere forced apology designed solely to avoid destruction. If they weren't sorry for years, I find it hard to imagine that this raid suddenly opened their eyes to the error of their ways. To insist otherwise is nieve at best and agenda driven revisionism at worst.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Worth reminding that TBH had no idea of all this history prior to the raid. We hit it because it was a SWORD member, was large, and of course was founderless. We gave it to Unknown because they really wanted it, and we've never been too obsessive with trophies (they're rather a pain to upkeep, honestly). I bring this up because this proposal, like comments before it, blur who is acting for what reasons (in this case namely to drop mention of commendations, even LWU's). TBH has no control over the region anymore - we hold no executive positions, and left them with enough influence to change the PW. While we destroyed it, any future attempts to liberate it should, in the interests of accuracy, focus on Unknown...as much as we appreciate the free publicity!

[Ikania]

Worth reminding that TBH had no idea of all this history prior to the raid. We hit it because it was a SWORD member, was large, and of course was founderless. We gave it to Unknown because they really wanted it, and we've never been too obsessive with trophies (they're rather a pain to upkeep, honestly). I bring this up because this proposal, like comments before it, blur who is acting for what reasons (in this case namely to drop mention of commendations, even LWU's). TBH has no control over the region anymore - we hold no executive positions, and left them with enough influence to change the PW. While we destroyed it, any future attempts to liberate it should, in the interests of accuracy, focus on Unknown...as much as we appreciate the free publicity!

^ I like this better.

[Cormactopia Prime]

The essential question is, was the community even given the chance to disavow him?

Sure, it's those few years of time they had between their founder destroying a forum and them being raided. Anything thereafter is an insincere forced apology designed solely to avoid destruction. If they weren't sorry for years, I find it hard to imagine that this raid suddenly opened their eyes to the error of their ways. To insist otherwise is nieve at best and agenda driven revisionism at worst.

Are you just going to completely ignore my point about none of the natives probably even knowing about the forum destruction?

[Fratt]

The forum destruction was also not done as part of an intelligence operation against an IC 'enemy' region, or any similar situation that implicated Westphalia as an entity. It was the Founder, on its own, deleting the forum of another region he was Founder of.

Comparing it with invader/defender espionage is nonsense.

[Killer Kitty]

Are you just going to completely ignore my point about none of the natives probably even knowing about the forum destruction?

Absolutely, just as any Defender would ignore any non-raiding natives in a raider region. In fact, so committed are most Defenders to this idea that the majority of Defender regions declare that "raider regions have no natives" thus justifying their own crusades of destruction.

I find this to be no different, the sides have merely flipped and pro-defenders like to complain more about "the rights of natives" when it benefits them. When it doesn't, there are no natives and everyone is equally guilty. I'm on board with this second idea, but not the hypocrisy of using it only when it is of benefit to your personal position.

Defenders want to keep their only lamb alive and unharmed but allow the wolf to eat mutton. The two positions are simply incompatible.

[Drop Your Pants]

Absolutely, just as any Defender would ignore any non-raiding natives in a raider region. In fact, so committed are most Defenders to this idea that the majority of Defender regions declare that "raider regions have no natives" thus justifying their own crusades of destruction

Ok i'll bite, lets see your backup for this wild idea.

Also I love your attempts to ignore arguments by blaming defenders, very good. Very old school LWU.

[Killer Kitty]

Ok i'll bite, lets see your backup for this wild idea.

Hogwarts.

LWU refounded Hogwarts and even fought TVF to claim it, as they were also trying to claim the long dead region for themselves, just as LWU was. Much later, when LWU's Hogwarts founder was DoS'd, defenders declared in their Liberation proposal that they represented the "true" natives of Hogwarts (that no one could find) and that no raider could ever possible be a native of the region.

LWU fought past the Liberation Proposal and even lived to see the fastest Liberation repeal in NS history, but eventually LWU did lose the region and, surprise, surprise, defenders claimed it for themselves and declared their own puppet nations to be the "true natives" they had spoke of prior. There was never any group of returning native come to reclaim their region, just another R/D battleground to be claimed.

I am well versed in these deceptive tactics aimed to tug at heart strings without any basis in fact, DYP.

[Drop Your Pants]

I am well versed in these deceptive tactics aimed to tug at heart strings without any basis in fact, DYP.

I've noticed, you've become very good at it in the past few months. I wasn't involved (or active in NS?) in the Hogwarts show so i'll give you that one.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Are you just going to completely ignore my point about none of the natives probably even knowing about the forum destruction?

Absolutely, just as any Defender would ignore any non-raiding natives in a raider region. In fact, so committed are most Defenders to this idea that the majority of Defender regions declare that "raider regions have no natives" thus justifying their own crusades of destruction.

I find this to be no different, the sides have merely flipped and pro-defenders like to complain more about "the rights of natives" when it benefits them. When it doesn't, there are no natives and everyone is equally guilty. I'm on board with this second idea, but not the hypocrisy of using it only when it is of benefit to your personal position.

Defenders want to keep their only lamb alive and unharmed but allow the wolf to eat mutton. The two positions are simply incompatible.

This wasn't your original argument. Your original argument was that Westphalia deserved to burn because of forum destruction, but now that the absurdity of that has been pointed out, you're shifting your argument to Westphalia deserved to be griefed because of defenders. Or something.

The truth is you don't care about the justification, you just enjoy seeing Westphalia griefed. Why you don't just say that is beyond me. What I won't accept is tarring and feathering an entire group of innocent people with the label "forum destroyer" so you can justify griefing. If you want to grief, do it, but don't pretend that all the natives of Westphalia are guilty of forum destruction committed by their Founder before they ever started playing. It's petty, it cheapens the severity of forum destruction, and it's just plain ridiculous. How anyone could actually buy it as a real justification, I don't know.

[Northern Poland]

oh look a 4th proposal https://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_vi ... 1521319465

[Anapragna]

oh look a 4th proposal https://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_vi ... 1521319465

At this point, the past members of westphalia don’t even support these proposals.

[BlackLight Covenant]

oh look a 4th proposal https://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_vi ... 1521319465

It has been...20 days since I predicted that would happen. To be honest, it surprises me it didn't happen earlier.