[DEFEATED] Liberate Westphalia

[Lord Dominator]

Raiding is the process of taking over a founderless region by seizing the world assembly delegate position. Raiders like me work in a raider organization to get the necessary endorsements to seize the position from natives of the region.

An excessively long guide explaining the ins outs ups and downs of R/D can be found here

Why do you do it though? Just for funzies?

For the most part, yes

[Encyclopedia Foundation]

Raiding is the process of taking over a founderless region by seizing the world assembly delegate position. Raiders like me work in a raider organization to get the necessary endorsements to seize the position from natives of the region.

An excessively long guide explaining the ins outs ups and downs of R/D can be found here

Why do you do it though? Just for funzies?

I like to do both raiding and defending for the fun of it, but you can also do it for political power in a region or building an empire or whatever you can make work really.

[Unibot III]

Yes, I'm sure a third submitted proposal, and fourth written would do wonders...

Especially one written by unibot, since we know that most liberations are written by him anyways.

Honestly I even think the authors could swing this thing right now if they were good. The big boys have already played their hands and the house is only on top by 2000.

The math adds up. This isn't a losing case. If they don't pass this resolution, they could pass it with an immediate follow-up that's better written and better lobbied without TNP.

I'm saying this because I've done it before, any WA Author - retired or not - worth his salt knows this is still in play and a follow-up would be advisable.

[The Arian nation]

Can someone tell me why are there soo many people against the liberation of Westphalia?

[Vuori Kunin-Grrs]

Can someone tell me why are there soo many people against the liberation of Westphalia?

The defenders refuse to help as they feel the natives deserve nothing, many natives have lost hope in ever reclaiming Westphalia, and multiple powerful Delegates are more aligned with raiders.

Especially one written by unibot, since we know that most liberations are written by him anyways.

Honestly I even think the authors could swing this thing right now if they were good. The big boys have already played their hands and the house is only on top by 2000.

The math adds up. This isn't a losing case. If they don't pass this resolution, they could pass it with an immediate follow-up that's better written and better lobbied without TNP.

I'm saying this because I've done it before, any WA Author - retired or not - worth his salt knows this is still in play and a follow-up would be advisable.

If those who have authored this resolution did not send out campaign telegrams, I would sponsor an API campaign under this nation.

[Louisistan]

Can someone tell me why are there soo many people against the liberation of Westphalia?

The defenders refuse to help as they feel the natives deserve nothing, many natives have lost hope in ever reclaiming Westphalia, and multiple powerful Delegates are more aligned with raiders.

Please don't say "the defenders refuse to help" when a defender has submitted this proposal.

[Vuori Kunin-Grrs]

The defenders refuse to help as they feel the natives deserve nothing, many natives have lost hope in ever reclaiming Westphalia, and multiple powerful Delegates are more aligned with raiders.

Please don't say "the defenders refuse to help" when a defender has submitted this proposal.

Apologizes - I was referring mainly to the TGW bloc of defenders.

[Navabharat]

[floatleft[BIn this we should want a diplomatic conversation between different regions and diamond like tough and glitter unity between the nations of our region [/Blocktext][/floatleft]

RECOGNISING Westphalia as a region of historical and cultural significance to many nations of the world,

CONCERNED by the forceful invasion and occupation of Westphalia by hostile forces,

OBSERVING that the invading forces are led by The Black Hawks, an organisation twice condemned by this Council through SC #52 and SC #217,

TAKING NOTICE that the occupation is supported by Lone Wolves United, yet another organisation condemned by this Council through SC #74,

WORRIED for the future of Westphalia given the record of destruction of the aforementioned organisations,

NOTING that the region of Westphalia did not pose a threat to the invading forces prior to this incursion,

GRAVELY CONCERNED that Border Control measures have already been put in place over Westphalia by the occupying forces,

APPALLED at the forced removal of the native nations from their home and at the forceful termination of all diplomatic relations,

HORRIFIED that no native nations remain in the occupied region,

ASSERTING its commitment to regional sovereignty,

the Security Council hereby

LIBERATES Westphalia

Given that the entire native population has been removed, this will be submitted soon.

[Monetillia]

I don't see why, after seeing someone scolded for comparing raiders to Nazis, you decided to compare them to rapists.

We have already addressed this. If you can't accept the comparison and find raiding to be an appropriate response to raiding, you simply aren't as enlightened as we are about needless violence.

Why do you do it though? Just for funzies?

{ooc} It is my perspective that raiding happens because trolly people want to take advantage of a lack of Out Of Character (ooc) protections like password protected entry on a region. They think that a lack of protections means raiding is acceptable when, in reality, the founder just might be new to the game and not know any better or be naive enough to think it won't happen to their region. Then, someone retaliates because they think raiding is the only response to raiding. Then, someone retaliates against the retaliation because...

Do you see where this is going?

It's f*cking pointless. {/ooc}

Raiding happens because one nation thinks they have the right to occupy the sovereign territories of several others when, in fact, they are simply behaving like entitled barbarians. Raiding is entirely inappropriate behavior, and any good regional founder would have the sense, after seeing an issue like this come across his desk, to ensure that his border patrols are sufficient to keep raiders at bay.

[Northern Poland]

Can someone tell me why are there soo many people against the liberation of Westphalia?

The defenders refuse to help as they feel the natives deserve nothing, many natives have lost hope in ever reclaiming Westphalia, and multiple powerful Delegates are more aligned with raiders.
-snippity snip-

When your a WA delegate of a Tiny region wirth only 7 nations

[Erinor]

Please don't say "the defenders refuse to help" when a defender has submitted this proposal.

Apologizes - I was referring mainly to the TGW bloc of defenders.

I think it would be great if more of those defenders were to show compassion at this point in time, rather than the 'serves them right' attitude that seems to be prevalent.

If you want natives to listen to you and trust you, then you must maintain a compassionate outlook all the time, not just when they're willing to acknowledge your effectiveness at the particular skillset they need and do what you tell them. Showing compassion in the face of hostility, ambivalence or even stupidity isn't easy, I grant that, but I believe it's the hallmark of those who genuinely care about the rights of communities to exist without harassment and griefing.

[Free City of Rigia]

I will tell you what happened from my point of view when I was the Delegate in the months leading up to the invasion.

When I took power, Westphalia was in shambles. Our government had collapsed 2 months earlier with the impeachment of Rahambia and the last CTE of Petain. Our population was shrinking, and there was very little activity overall. Not to mention that nearly all of the government ministers were either gone or inactive, no use to us. I began elections and that got people onto the RMB. At the time, the last thing we were all thinking about was an invasion. A PM and government was elected, and we had Yuanduanga be our delegate to SWORD. The idea is that he would be our way to communicate to them. So meanwhile, we're trying to reboot the region, trying to set up an RP when I get telegrammed by a good Samaritan about the whole Christmas thing. I told those in government to take a look, and they decided to just investigate those that were suspicious in terms of activity before they arrived and what they'd said on the RMB. During this time, I heard nothing from our delegate, and I just forgot about him. SWORD did send me a telegram telling me to set a password and start thinking of refounding. Now, at the time, I refused to do anything unless the majority of the government gave the go-ahead. So I told them what SWORD expected of us. A good chunk thought that it might be wise to temporarily set up a password, at least until the threat had passed. A majority though thought that setting up a password would also mean the end of the region. We were founderless, low in population, and no RP. We were trying to make the region look at least a bit more appealing to join to new players. So we didn't set up a password. Refounding on the otherhand, it was a resounding and emphatic NO. No one would even dare think of trying to refound. So we did our best to police the region all through December and about midway through January. After that, we naively thought that the danger had passed. But we also started to consider possibly retiring Westphalia and delegating it to being a history book essentially.
At the end of January, it was time for new elections, and we didn't really have a leader other than me, the person who's supposed to make sure the elections go alright. Then one night, about 10 minutes after I logged off for the evening, The Raiders came. When morning came, I saw what had happened, and those in government prior to the elections decided it was time to form a government in exile. SWORD invited me to their discord channel, and was told to bring as many natives to it as I could. Only one other person came, and he was in the government. What I saw on that channel was 3 other people trying to come up with a plan that never came, that required nations they didn't have, and all lead by a leader they couldn't decide on. it took about 10 minutes for my counterpart to realize that it was a lost cause at that point in time. Those in the government, and myself, lost all of any confidence that we had in SWORD. Everyone in government and most of the natives left for RHINIA, while I stayed behind so those who didn't get the memo knew that they weren't abandoned, and that there was a region set up for them. I also tried to have those left behind endorse me, with the help of Wikiplay. But I think that did more harm than good. I imagine that the Raiders knew I would be the rally point for endorsements, and probably banned those seen endorsing me every once in a while. I was eventually banned towards the end, after the password was set up. And now I'm in RHINIA.

Mistakes were made, mostly on my part, and the parts of government. I could have done so much to prevent this from happening, I had executive power. But I didn't because that would go against what a majority of people wanted. And even though I was chosen to lead Westphalia, I couldn't. I can govern, but I cannot lead. SWORD warned me once or twice of what measures needed to be taken. It shouldn't have taken a warning in the first place. They tried, and we ignored, and we paid the price.

As for what Petain did to the Raiders four years ago, I cannot agree with. You shouldn't destroy a forum and cover it up. You shouldn't destroy a forum in the first place here. I could apologize for what he did, but I was not there, and it would mean nothing. I've only been here two years, and I know nothing personally of what happened.

As for trying again, I know what voter fatigue is. And that's why I think this is one of the last times we'll be able to try this again, because people have short attention spans, and will probably forget about Westphalia after a month. I want this to succeed, with all my heart, but not to revive the region and move back there. We just want to ensure that future players in the regions and communities affected by this region can look at it and either hate it or adore it. Westphalia is gone, and she'll never have another government, another RP, another funny joke, or a poll. For those of us who gave a part to the region and thus received a part of the region from here, We just want to put her to rest and say our goodbyes properly. That's all we want now.

[Monetillia]

For those of us who gave a part to the region and thus received a part of the region from here, We just want to put her to rest and say our goodbyes properly. That's all we want now.

We're so sorry this happened to you. If indeed you do speak for whatever people were there, and this is their will, Monetillia and Manus Fortis wish all of you the best in your new regions. May you find a peace and prosperity Westphalia could not offer you.

In the meantime, it is our opinion that this sort of thing is precisely why we wholesale condemn raiding as a practice. Here, we have a bunch of displaced nations who did nothing wrong to anyone. Their only 'crime' was to pick residency in a region with a notorious reputation, and they ended up paying for the transgressions of those who since have moved on and are long gone. No research was done by the raiders to verify that those they brought harm actually 'deserved' the harm that was visited upon them. After reading this, we're more convinced than ever that this raid had absolutely nothing to do with justice. If it had, the raiders would have targeted their assault more precisely and researched their invasion effort more carefully. Certainly, they'd have looked into the region beyond its name.

If we cannot or should not save Westphalia from this senselessness, the least this body can do is condemn the actions of those who have perpetrated it. Monetillia moves that the WASC condemns the actions of those who have raided Westphalia.

[Lord Dominator]

I don't see why, after seeing someone scolded for comparing raiders to Nazis, you decided to compare them to rapists.

We have already addressed this. If you can't accept the comparison and find raiding to be an appropriate response to raiding, you simply aren't as enlightened as we are about needless violence.

Why do you do it though? Just for funzies?

{ooc} It is my perspective that raiding happens because trolly people want to take advantage of a lack of Out Of Character (ooc) protections like password protected entry on a region. They think that a lack of protections means raiding is acceptable when, in reality, the founder just might be new to the game and not know any better or be naive enough to think it won't happen to their region. Then, someone retaliates because they think raiding is the only response to raiding. Then, someone retaliates against the retaliation because...

Do you see where this is going?

It's f*cking pointless. {/ooc}

Raiding happens because one nation thinks they have the right to occupy the sovereign territories of several others when, in fact, they are simply behaving like entitled barbarians. Raiding is entirely inappropriate behavior, and any good regional founder would have the sense, after seeing an issue like this come across his desk, to ensure that his border patrols are sufficient to keep raiders at bay.

Raiding happens because we find various parts of it fun, no more, no less.

For those of us who gave a part to the region and thus received a part of the region from here, We just want to put her to rest and say our goodbyes properly. That's all we want now.

We're so sorry this happened to you. If indeed you do speak for whatever people were there, and this is their will, Monetillia and Manus Fortis wish all of you the best in your new regions. May you find a peace and prosperity Westphalia could not offer you.

In the meantime, it is our opinion that this sort of thing is precisely why we wholesale condemn raiding as a practice. Here, we have a bunch of displaced nations who did nothing wrong to anyone. Their only 'crime' was to pick residency in a region with a notorious reputation, and they ended up paying for the transgressions of those who since have moved on and are long gone. No research was done by the raiders to verify that those they brought harm actually 'deserved' the harm that was visited upon them. After reading this, we're more convinced than ever that this raid had absolutely nothing to do with justice. If it had, the raiders would have targeted their assault more precisely and researched their invasion effort more carefully. Certainly, they'd have looked into the region beyond its name.

If we cannot or should not save Westphalia from this senselessness, the least this body can do is condemn the actions of those who have perpetrated it. Monetillia moves that the WASC condemns the actions of those who have raided Westphalia.

Raids very rarely are about justice or anything about the region, at least in my experience & knowledge. Or at least how non-political raiders operate.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

Raiding happens because we find various parts of it fun, no more, no less.

Why do you find it fun, though? Is it another gameplay mechanic to you, or is it just schadenfreude?

[Tinhampton]

Now, as much as I agree with the resolution itself, I find Lenlyvit's latest usage of telegrammed rhetoric - now to all delegates, whether they like it or not - to be heavily ridiculous:

To the delegates of the world,

I greet you today, on the second day of the vote to liberate Westphalia. I know for a fact that you received a counter telegram to the one I sent before, so I am writing this counter telegram against that counter telegram. Many of you may know, or not know, that I'm a defender.

I stick up for the native communities across NS against the raider forces, protecting those I can. Gibralterica, the one you received the telegram from, is a raider. He would love nothing more than to see this liberation fail at vote. He wants raiders to succeed, and wants them to keep their trophy regions they take by destroying communities.

He says that the community of Westphalia is at fault and should be blamed for what their founder did, but should they? Before the community was purged from their home I looked at the residency time in the region, and according to that not a single native was around at that point in time. He also neglects to inform you that the major players behind this attack, the region of Unknown, have possibly destroyed regional forums and communities as revealed by a big time defender named Guy, although I'm unsure of its authenticity.

The native community of Westphalia should not be held accountable for what their founder did. They were not around for it, they were not part of it, and they shouldn't be punished for something they didn't do. I implore you, if you are voting against this liberation change your vote to For. Don't be party to destroying an innocent community, allow them to reclaim their region, side with the innocent natives rather than the guilty raiders.

The ones voting against this resolution wouldn't hesitate for a second to invade your regions and destroy your communities if your founders Cease To Exist, so why should you side with them? Protect yourselves, and others, by showing them that they don't rule this world by passing this liberation.

Thank you for your time,
Lenlyvit

[The Atlae Isles]

I don't see why, after seeing someone scolded for comparing raiders to Nazis, you decided to compare them to rapists.

We have already addressed this. If you can't accept the comparison and find raiding to be an appropriate response to raiding, you simply aren't as enlightened as we are about needless violence.

Why do you do it though? Just for funzies?

{ooc} It is my perspective that raiding happens because trolly people want to take advantage of a lack of Out Of Character (ooc) protections like password protected entry on a region. They think that a lack of protections means raiding is acceptable when, in reality, the founder just might be new to the game and not know any better or be naive enough to think it won't happen to their region. Then, someone retaliates because they think raiding is the only response to raiding. Then, someone retaliates against the retaliation because...

Do you see where this is going?

It's f*cking pointless. {/ooc}

Raiding happens because one nation thinks they have the right to occupy the sovereign territories of several others when, in fact, they are simply behaving like entitled barbarians. Raiding is entirely inappropriate behavior, and any good regional founder would have the sense, after seeing an issue like this come across his desk, to ensure that his border patrols are sufficient to keep raiders at bay.

Gameplay is already OOC, and by extension, the Security Council.

If the founder doesn’t know how to protect their region, even if they are new, that is their price to pay. The ‘slippery slope’ argument you put doesn’t reflect reality. Raiding is a very complex system regarding the game’s update. It is very unlikely that a raided region will ‘declare war’ on another region to raid each other’s colonies, much less a large organization on the large scale.

The only people who technically “retaliate” are defenders, who try to stop raiders. But they don’t raid that often to make the effect you are trying to portray.

Whether raiding is good or bad is fundamentally opinion, but it is imperative of those who do not want to be raided to protect their region with the right controls. Otherwise, it’s free game to those who do not view it as wrong.

[Killer Kitty]

Does anyone else find it ironic that XKI, a region that has held on to Empire of Power as a trophy for over a decade as revenge for a short lived raid EoP pulled on XKI, is now preaching to everyone that revenge is, like, bad and stuff and whining that Unknown has no right to retaliate against Westphalia for an offense that was far, far more egregious than a simple invasion?

Of course, XKI really doesn't care about the rights or wrongs of "revenge", they themselves fully embrace the concept and practice it whenever possible. Rather they take offense that this act is being committed by the "wrong sode". If this was Defender on Raider for the exact same reasons, you'd hear not a peep of objection from XKI citizens like Lenlyvit and Louisistan.

"Moralist Defenders" indeed.

[Borovan6]

Someone bursts out of the door in the halls of the World Assembly. He walks off drunkenly with his hands in the air and his breath as foul as dirt in the hills of your neighborhood. One of the security guards asks him to put away the sword but he waves him off. The guy wearing a hat and worn out clothes begin to speak.

"G'day mate, " and then he starts to fall but begins to catch himself, "The proposal here, "Liberate Westphalia" is an okay resolution. It lacks the technical language of the other resolutions but its fine. Now onto the discussion of the uh- region, may I suggest why we are liberating this region, when the natives can simply just move to the aforementioned region, RHINIA After all it has a founder and it would be more secure. Just look at the activity. The region just manages to function just as well. I just do not believe it is important enough. I can understand-" he begins to drink out of his rum and throws the empty bottle into trash can, "that the region can still mean much to some of the natives, but there is just not enough rationale to support this resolution. And as such I will be voting against this resolution." The WA member then walks out after voting.

[Kshrlmnt]

All right, let's try to clear up a bit of that hyperbole.

First, as many of us on this forum already know, any large region without a founder is a tempting raid target. Burning a region usually takes a bit more than just it being tempting, though. The major reason in this case, I believe, was its defender affiliation. However, various regions supporting the occupation had additional reasons, such as violations of their recruitment policies. Unknown's reasons have taken the spotlight because TBH graciously gave us the region to maintain at the end of the occupation, but they are hardly the only ones in play. The most quotable of our reasons is Petain's destruction of our ally's forums, but our war with him and the regions he used as his support had multiple provocations and is more than probably anybody wants to know about in full detail.

Quite likely the most important note here is that our desire to keep Westphalia is mostly about the founder and his use of the region against us, which was indeed a while back. It's for this reason that we've already stated we have no ill will towards Rhinia; they've dropped the dead weight of their old founder and are moving on. We wish them the best--in their new region.

Beyond this, I'd like to set Lenlyvit straight on a few facts: In 2010, one of our spies destroyed two forums and we laughed it off. This is a matter of public record; we were even condemned for it. We got several wakeup calls at the end of 2010 and beginning of 2011, though, when that member betrayed us and then the forums of an ally were destroyed. In time we realized what colossal and narcissistic jerks we'd been. We admitted we'd been wrong and apologized in mid-2011--again, a matter of public record on NS forums.

Ever since, we've taken a strong stance on forum destruction. Being raiders, we've used raids as a tool against regions who've harbored forum destroyers--but because of our past, we've always remembered that the young are responsible only for their views on actions before their time and not the actions themselves, and that even the despicable can be redeemed. We've acted upon those beliefs before, and seek to here as well. The Unknown of 2018 is not the Unknown of 2010.

[Yuanduanga]

Snip a doodle snip

One small piece of information that you messed up. I was the delegate to SWORD until I, like your leave, walked out of the job with no confidence.

[Free City of Rigia]

Snip a doodle snip

One small piece of information that you messed up. I was the delegate to SWORD until I, like your leave, walked out of the job with no confidence.

My apologies.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

Does anyone else find it ironic that XKI, a region that has held on to Empire of Power as a trophy for over a decade as revenge for a short lived raid EoP pulled on XKI,^[2] is now preaching to everyone that revenge is, like, bad and stuff^[1] and whining that Unknown has no right to retaliate^[3] against Westphalia for an offense that was far, far more egregious than a simple invasion^[4]?

Of course, XKI really doesn't care about the rights or wrongs of "revenge",^[5] they themselves fully embrace the concept and practice it whenever possible.^[5] Rather they take offense that this act is being committed by the "wrong sode".^[6] If this was Defender on Raider for the exact same reasons, you'd hear not a peep of objection from XKI citizens like Lenlyvit and Louisistan.^[7]

"Moralist Defenders" indeed.

Starting from the top:
[1]: I have spent well over a year in XKI, and no person I have met (in leadership or otherwise) has stated that taking revenge is wrong.
[2]: The invasion was short lived because they were kicked out pretty quickly by various defender organizations. Besides, all invasions are short lived. Preparation might take weeks or months, but the end struggle takes a couple days at most. Either the raiders seize power and kick out the natives, or the natives/defenders kick out the raiders. There's really no gray area.
[3] and [4]: I keep hearing about some offense that Westphalia has committed at some point in the past, but I have absolutely no clue what they supposedly did. Besides that, it seems to have occurred several years ago.
[5]: Well... I suppose you're technically right, in that we find it irrelevant. We try to oppose raiders wherever we can, and honestly, I'm 90% certain that this whole "but Westphalia started it!" thing that's going on is just a pretext for war. Let's all be honest, when the Black Hawks see a large, unprepared, founderless region, they see a target.
[6] and [7]: Again, we are opposed to raiders as a whole. EoP aside (and seriously, that happened over ten years ago), we don't care what group is doing the raiding or why they're doing it. In our eyes, raiders are just griefers exploiting game mechanics to destroy self-determination and the ability to have fun playing, and we haven't found much evidence to the contrary.

snip.

Alright, this explains some stuff, but when did this 'forum destruction', as you put it, happen?

[Lord Dominator]

Raiding happens because we find various parts of it fun, no more, no less.

Why do you find it fun, though? Is it another gameplay mechanic to you, or is it just schadenfreude?

Another gameplay mechanic. Personally, I like the thrill of the chase and the competition with defenders and sometimes other raiders.

[The Westphalian Telegram]

Westphalia was a great community, I agree with liberating it, as it had a very active community
So i vote
FOR

Fun fact, the community is just fine. They made themselves a nice surprise successor region, with ya' know a founder and apparently work is being done in backing up the RMB. No, I don't know the region off the top of my head, but it isn't terribly hard to find.

It’s RHINIA