[DEFEATED] Liberate Westphalia

[The Noble Thatcherites]

OOC: Quote from a "Vote for a GA proposal" campaign telegram from The North Pacific (the region im in):

Westphalia is a major and very old defender region who, among other things, founded FORGE - one of the biggest defender alliances in NationStates. However, they have broken our recruitment policy in the past by trying to recruit nations from The North Pacific. Furthermore, the Ministry would note that a password has not been imposed on the region, and appears unlikely to be imposed in the future as the influence levels of the natives in the region have considerable regional influence making a refound extremely difficult. Thus, making this liberation unnecessary.
For these reasons, the Ministry of World Assembly Affairs recommends voting against the resolution.

I will post this to every resolution from now on that is tagged "[AT VOTE]" so that people can have a clearer decision on whether to vote "For" or "Against".

Well, this is a bunch of bullarchy. Not to dis on TNP, but they have one fact very wrong in that message. Westphalia did not found FORGE, it joined forge less than four months before the organization shut down. FORGE was created by LCRUA and two other regions, Solid Kingdom and one other I forget. It was the brainchild of Krypton Nova, and not a single person from Westphalia ever had a hand in its creation.

Edit: I can't spell after just waking up XD

Can confirm. Thanks for handling this one, Len.

P.S. The third fouder was the Superiorem Merionem Region.

[WikiPlay]

Strange enough I wasn’t informed about the fact that the founder of Westphalia is (or better) was a proud raider, unibot_III

A question for the well informed region The Black Hawks.

A) Why is westphalia a typical defender region, according to the WFE of Westphalia?

Give me exact 3 defender missions:
1. ...
2. ...
3. ...

B) Are you supporting to raid other raider organizations now and in the future and why?

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Huh.. wait a second. If you are able to register on the regional offsite of Westphalia then all registered nations can see the opposite: the founder (Mike) was a defender and did many efforts to establish the defender group that was called The Westphalian Guard.

Furthermore, the founder of Westphalia had ties with the active invader region The Kingdom of Denmark. You may ask it to the regional founder.

May I ask you which nation that I may contact to check whether your claim is true unibot_III

On a related note, this hit is extremely satisfying, as it represents raiders taking out the last of Rolamec's regions. For those who don't remember, Rolamec used to be a raider- but he grew a conscience one day, nuked the forums of the raider region he used to run (New Earth), and spent 6 months using his other regions (Westphalia, Islandia) trying to spread the fake claim that members of Unknown were responsible, at a time when Unknown had far too many other things on our plate to do much about it. Your involvement may have been a very long time ago, Westphalians, but it has not been forgotten. Complexo Cruor! Keep knocking them down, Souls.

---

You do realize that half of every native and their cousin jump right to an SC lib for awareness and better-safe-than-sorry password and refound protection the moment it’s clear that a defensive liberation is not occurring, right?

You do realize they do that typically because we advise them to do that? Half of them are ghost-written by me.

This isn't a typical WA Liberation. It seems like sabotage to me. And more suspiciously, the last time this happened in the SC, it was over the founder of Westphalia's raid (Land of the Liberals.)

So you're taking responsibility for 50% of "native" liberations? That's a sure way to cast doubt on the validity of future native liberations, frankly probably more so than the fairly disprovable question of "are they a raider"

Also, "last time it happened" my ass. I just said up there that once upon a time, but certainly still well past SC#15, I did something similar with Islam under Sicarius. The Invaders did it regularly in their height, and lost ties with a couple GCR's over it, and for those it was almost always proven beyond a doubt who the player even was. If you're gonna go around saying a native isn't a native, you ought to do them the courtesy of at least trying to prove it.

---

Strange enough I wasn’t informed about the fact that the founder of Westphalia is (or better) was a proud raider, unibot_III

A question for the well informed region The Black Hawks.

A) Why is westphalia a typical defender region, according to the WFE of Westphalia?

Give me exact 3 defender missions:
1. ...
2. ...
3. ...

B) Are you supporting to raid other raider organizations now and in the future and why?

As others, said, SWORD replaced it with functionally similar membership.

(Image)

Westphalia was proud in their proclamation of SWORD membership, and recruitment for it.

SWORD has been fairly active in defenses. By their own account: https://swordns.icyboards.net/showthread.php?tid=16

As a member of SWORD (and indeed, FORGE before it), Westphalia is a region with strong and publicly proclaimed defender ties. Hence, the challenge both here and in the WFE, for SWORD to protect their own.

[Unibot III]

Also, "last time it happened" my ass. I just said up there that once upon a time, but certainly still well past SC#15, I did something similar with Islam under Sicarius. The Invaders did it regularly in their height, and lost ties with a couple GCR's over it, and for those it was almost always proven belong a doubt who the player even was. If you're gonna go around saying a native isn't a native, you ought to do them the courtesy of at least trying to prove it.

I couldn't give less of a shit about 'Invaders 2.0'. Land of the Liberals was a major scandal in its day. Douria sabotaging GA#2's repeal was a massive scandal though too - and probably helped push the GA to adopting the GenSec. As for this native, how'll about he post here for starters. He had time to contact hundreds of delegates but not answer some basic questions here? That's pretty suspicious in my mind.

And suddenly you caring about natives is doubly suspicious. Your "Hall Monitor" schtick betrays your credibility.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Also, "last time it happened" my ass. I just said up there that once upon a time, but certainly still well past SC#15, I did something similar with Islam under Sicarius. The Invaders did it regularly in their height, and lost ties with a couple GCR's over it, and for those it was almost always proven belong a doubt who the player even was. If you're gonna go around saying a native isn't a native, you ought to do them the courtesy of at least trying to prove it.

I couldn't give less of a shit about 'Invaders 2.0'. Land of the Liberals was a major scandal in its day. Douria sabotaging GA#2's repeal was a massive scandal though too - and probably helped push the GA to adopting the GenSec. As for this native, how'll about he post here for starters. He had time to contact hundreds of delegates but not answer some basic questions here? That's pretty suspicious in my mind.

And suddenly you caring about natives is doubly suspicious. Your "Hall Monitor" schtick betrays your credibility.

Ah, so none of the others that have happened throughout history matter because you weren't in the middle of them, got it. And that's reason enough to rewrite history as it just not having happened at all since. mhm.

You misplace my caring - I care about providing proof for claims, not about natives. But sure, throw out more accusations rather than some backing information.

[Unibot III]

"I don't know. A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven."
- the fucking man

Generally I've learned over the years when invaders start squawking and making accusations, they're lying through their teeth.

[The Noble Thatcherites]

"I don't know. A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven."
- the fucking man

Generally I've learned over the years when invaders start squawking and making accusations, they're lying through their teeth.

Uni, I know this isn't my place to butt in, but Etlara appears to have been a genuine member of Westphalia for a while now. The proposal was also co-authored by GPR, a leading member of SWORD. As unfounded as this proposal is, I wouldn't be so quick to call it a raider conspiracy.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

"I don't know. A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven."
- the fucking man

Generally I've learned over the years when invaders start squawking and making accusations, they're lying through their teeth.

Hawks always squawk, and you saying you write half of supposedly native libs has given me plenty of ground to make reasonably truthful accusations for many months to come.

[Unibot III]

"I don't know. A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven."
- the fucking man

Generally I've learned over the years when invaders start squawking and making accusations, they're lying through their teeth.

Uni, I know this isn't my place to butt in, but Etlara appears to have been a genuine member of Westphalia for a while now. The proposal was also co-authored by GPR, a leading member of SWORD. As unfounded as this proposal is, I wouldn't be so quick to call it a raider conspiracy.

Listen I agree with you that he seems pretty legitimate to me. The history checks out. He was WA since Sept 2017. He's RP'd with his account.

But where is he? He posts a resolution. Everybody tells him don't submit yet. He gets 160+ delegate approvals. And then just ... disappears?

People don't tend to do this...

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Uni, I know this isn't my place to butt in, but Etlara appears to have been a genuine member of Westphalia for a while now. The proposal was also co-authored by GPR, a leading member of SWORD. As unfounded as this proposal is, I wouldn't be so quick to call it a raider conspiracy.

Listen I agree with you that he seems pretty legitimate to me. The history checks out. He was WA since Sept 2017. He's RP'd with his account.

But where is he? He posts a resolution. Everybody tells him don't submit yet. He gets 160+ delegate approvals. And then just ... disappears?

People don't tend to do this...

I mean, experienced WA authors or raider sleepers don't tend to do that. A native might

[Jakker]

You do realize that half of every native and their cousin jump right to an SC lib for awareness and better-safe-than-sorry password and refound protection the moment it’s clear that a defensive liberation is not occurring, right?

You do realize they do that typically because we advise them to do that? Half of them are ghost-written by me.

That sounds as good of a reason as ever not to vote for Liberations.

Uni, I know this isn't my place to butt in, but Etlara appears to have been a genuine member of Westphalia for a while now. The proposal was also co-authored by GPR, a leading member of SWORD. As unfounded as this proposal is, I wouldn't be so quick to call it a raider conspiracy.

Listen I agree with you that he seems pretty legitimate to me. The history checks out. He was WA since Sept 2017. He's RP'd with his account.

But where is he? He posts a resolution. Everybody tells him don't submit yet. He gets 160+ delegate approvals. And then just ... disappears?

People don't tend to do this...

Oh how I miss your paranoia. <3

[RiderSyl]

Your "Hall Monitor" schtick betrays your credibility.

This is one of those quips that makes me stare off into the distance and try to wrap my brain around why Gameplay banter is so awful and cringy

[Lord Dominator]

Also, "last time it happened" my ass. I just said up there that once upon a time, but certainly still well past SC#15, I did something similar with Islam under Sicarius. The Invaders did it regularly in their height, and lost ties with a couple GCR's over it, and for those it was almost always proven belong a doubt who the player even was. If you're gonna go around saying a native isn't a native, you ought to do them the courtesy of at least trying to prove it.

I couldn't give less of a shit about 'Invaders 2.0'. Land of the Liberals was a major scandal in its day. Douria sabotaging GA#2's repeal was a massive scandal though too - and probably helped push the GA to adopting the GenSec. As for this native, how'll about he post here for starters. He had time to contact hundreds of delegates but not answer some basic questions here? That's pretty suspicious in my mind.

And suddenly you caring about natives is doubly suspicious. Your "Hall Monitor" schtick betrays your credibility.

Ya' know, of the GA#2 repeals I found, the one closest to GenSec that wasn't a noon one was a good year and a half before GenSec. That and the explicit reason I remember the mods giving in the idea stage for what became GenSec was being sick of player complaints or something like that...

If you care sof much about whether or not the person is a native or is poisoning lib attemots, why don't you just telegram them?

[Gibraltarica]

Unibot likes to inflate his relevancy--even at the expense of natives and defenders, the very people he pretends to help. I would take his words in this thread with a grain of salt.

[Unibot III]

I couldn't give less of a shit about 'Invaders 2.0'. Land of the Liberals was a major scandal in its day. Douria sabotaging GA#2's repeal was a massive scandal though too - and probably helped push the GA to adopting the GenSec. As for this native, how'll about he post here for starters. He had time to contact hundreds of delegates but not answer some basic questions here? That's pretty suspicious in my mind.

And suddenly you caring about natives is doubly suspicious. Your "Hall Monitor" schtick betrays your credibility.

Ya' know, of the GA#2 repeals I found, the one closest to GenSec that wasn't a noon one was a good year and a half before GenSec. That and the explicit reason I remember the mods giving in the idea stage for what became GenSec was being sick of player complaints or something like that...

If you care sof much about whether or not the person is a native or is poisoning lib attemots, why don't you just telegram them?

The GA#2 snafu rocked the GA to its core and put the wheels in motion for change.

[Imperium Anglorum]

Can we have this thread renamed from Wesphalia to Westphalia?

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Can we have this thread renamed from Wesphalia to Westphalia?

I honest to god have been wondering in the back of my head what kept throwing me off about the thread title for a damn week now, THANK YOU for putting your finger on it!

[Lord Dominator]

Ya' know, of the GA#2 repeals I found, the one closest to GenSec that wasn't a noon one was a good year and a half before GenSec. That and the explicit reason I remember the mods giving in the idea stage for what became GenSec was being sick of player complaints or something like that...

If you care sof much about whether or not the person is a native or is poisoning lib attemots, why don't you just telegram them?

The GA#2 snafu rocked the GA to its core and put the wheels in motion for change.

If you're claiming that was somehow the impetus for GenSec, well shoot neither of us are going to be able to prove what we want to. But for my point, have these (Wrapper one is the original OP of the thread regarding the creation of GenSec):

WA Players have long expressed a desire for greater involvement in determining the direction of the World Assembly; meanwhile, we have been struggling for some time to deal with the volume of requests for legality rulings. The previous approach of attempting to recruit new Moderators has not worked; the increasing complexity and activity of the GA requires a number of people able to offer experience and long-term activity. While the community has a number of people who would be excellent at handling legality rulings, they do not necessarily meet the other requirements for being a Moderator in sufficient numbers.

To this end, the Moderation team is considering the creation of a special council, which we'll refer to here as "The Secretariat's Council", which will be involved in the legality ruling process. We have some competing views on the potential selection process and make-up of the Council, as well as on its responsibilities, and are looking for feedback on how this can work best for both staff members and players.

It has been more than a year since the moderators unveiled their plans to reform rules interpretation in the General Assembly. Having failed to satisfy players with their modifications to the ruleset and recognizing that they simply lacked the staff to police the General Assembly forum, moderator staff introduced the General Secretariat — more affectionately known as GenSec — which is composed of a panel of community members and charged with interpreting the ruleset.

The logic behind the reform was that experienced players were more equipped to interpret the General Assembly’s vague, complicated ruleset than a small staff of moderators (astonishingly, just a single one, Kryozerkia, most of the time) whose responsibilities often extended beyond the GA forum. Having not only served on GenSec for the entirety of its existence, but also having been an active participant (and critic) during the pre-GenSec era, I believe that rule interpretation has become more reflective of community expectations and is grounded in a shared understanding of the General Assembly that many moderators simply lacked.

And to remain vaguely ontopic, I hope it's obvious why I don't support this lib

[Mankinds Eden]

I really wish I knew what all you guys are saying, let alone understand......looks like this “game” goes waaaaay deeper than I could’ve ever imagined.

[Princess Luna Gangleader of Boil Heights]

I really wish I knew what all you guys are saying, let alone understand......looks like this “game” goes waaaaay deeper than I could’ve ever imagined.

Half the time I have no clue what they are saying beyond page 3.

[Hollylai]

I really wish I knew what all you guys are saying, let alone understand......looks like this “game” goes waaaaay deeper than I could’ve ever imagined.

I know, right, I just started this game as a school assignment and there's so much friggin depth and history that I have no clue about. I wish us both the best of luck. Btw
idk, I've read all of the posts and I feel like voting for the proposal just for the sake of it. That being said, I do understand the points against and it makes it very easy to go against this proposal. They should've written and timed it with preparation of such arguments in mind.

[Lord Dominator]

Incidentally, a nice little point to consider would be that a few natives have figured out how to survive a raid, and indeed have made sure they're safe in the future.
With that in mind, is it terribly necessary for a liberation when they're actively moving to a successor region?

[The Noble Thatcherites]

Incidentally, a nice little point to consider would be that a few natives have figured out how to survive a raid, and indeed have made sure they're safe in the future.
With that in mind, is it terribly necessary for a liberation when they're actively moving to a successor region?

Thats sort of a backwards way to think about it. Of course they are making do with their situation, but they'd still prefer to have their original region back. It is impossible to ignore the fact that having their entire region essentially taken away from them is destabalizing for the community.

If we use your logic of "well they're doing fine without the original region", then we'd have to question the point of all SC liberation resolutions.

[Lord Dominator]

Incidentally, a nice little point to consider would be that a few natives have figured out how to survive a raid, and indeed have made sure they're safe in the future.
With that in mind, is it terribly necessary for a liberation when they're actively moving to a successor region?

Thats sort of a backwards way to think about it. Of course they are making do with their situation, but they'd still prefer to have their original region back. It is impossible to ignore the fact that having their entire region esentially taken away from them is destabllizing for the community.

If we use your logic of "well they're doing fine without the original region", then we'd have to question the point of all SC liberation resolutions.

The whole thing was a bit tongue in cheek of course, I'm pretty well aware of their desire to have Westphalia back.

Incidentally if we're going down the proverbial rabbit hole, how many raided regions set up a successor region and attract unejected natives of fairly high influence from the occupied region? If that's all of them, well I suppose my argument is not of much use. However, if it is fairly unique, my argument could have more worth than I initially thought it would (ie none).

[WikiPlay]

I really wish I knew what all you guys are saying, let alone understand......looks like this “game” goes waaaaay deeper than I could’ve ever imagined.

Half the time I have no clue what they are saying beyond page 3.

I agree with you for 100%


There is no serious discussion anymore.

I would like to read concrete solutions.
What else can the natives of Westphalia do?

OUTRAGEOUS!!!
They ejected and banned almost every native in Westphalia.

Why do we have a Security Council anyway?