[DEFEATED] Liberate Westphalia

[RiderSyl]

Oh no- how dare that bastard Avakael manipulate the issue by ensuring that justice happens for two acts of offsite property destruction instead of just one, in order to cut through the partisan politics of NationStates!

Call it "cutting through the partisan politics" all you want. Outright stating you'll abuse a position of authority (or leverage), and outright stating you'll abuse the widespread assurance that someone in such a position would at least be reasonable about offsite property destruction, to force others into serving the obsessive sense of justice you have, shows that you don't care about fairness or nobility. You only care to get others on board with your vigilante bullcrap, whether they want to or not, and no matter the cost.

What a worthless arrogant scumbag! He must have absolutely no experience or credibility in the topic whatsoever!

Preposterous! Make him Persona Non Grata again, that'll show him.

Good job on countering arguments I never made

Can you imagine if there was benefit to ensuring there was something that more resembled universal justice on forum destruction?

I did imagine it when I read your initial post on it
There wasn't a great deal of benefit to doing it with your "new policy"

[Klaus Devestatorie]

Oh no- how dare that bastard Avakael manipulate the issue by ensuring that justice happens for two acts of offsite property destruction instead of just one, in order to cut through the partisan politics of NationStates!

Call it "cutting through the partisan politics" all you want. Outright stating you'll abuse a position of authority (or leverage), and outright stating you'll abuse the widespread assurance that someone in such a position would at least be reasonable about offsite property destruction, to force others into serving the obsessive sense of justice you have, shows that you don't care about fairness or nobility. You only care to get others on board with your vigilante bullcrap, whether they want to or not, and no matter the cost.

Then you don't get it, and I'm not going to waste my time talking to you about it.

[Triangle And Square]

About 6, and while you may operate differently, I don't let grudges expire. Especially not on forum destruction; especially not on anything that happened in the second half of 2011 as fuck that entire period of time especially. Westphalia was directly involved; they will never be safe, because I will not consider justice to be done until I'm personally the founder of the place.

I think you need a break from NS, this is obviously becoming more than a text based game for you.

1) That's why we have a liberation so that we can bring them back following the region's capture by invaders, but apparently, due to negative reasons, this proposal is largely unsupported.

You appear to be a bit confused on what an SC liberation is. It only removes the password function from a region, not clear the ban list or instal the previous delegate.

I mean remove the PW from the region and bring the natives of the region back.

[Lenlyvit]

Let it go, Klaus. Most of the people in Westphalia seem altogether completely clueless about Gameplay. You aren't getting any kind of vengeance from pissing on them.

We all have things we'd like to get revenge for, but we don't all get the opportunity to. Sometimes we just have to move on.

No, you can go pound sand. In fact, even if it was Kshrlmnt or Savaer asking, I'd tell them to pound sand, never mind you. After The Commonwealth (the first region I was part of) collapsed because of repeated total deletions of the forum and promises of many more to come if it didn't disband, I made my entire NS career about trying to end this crap. I made many enemies back then, some of whom still despise me today, because of a total zero tolerance approach, but at least there were other people who actually shared my views. I helped regions I liked, and regions I hated, and chased out people I hated and people I liked. I even helped Rolamec and Westphalia once, after New Earth was destroyed. I'm glad I was eventually reasonably successful at dealing with anyone who was truly dangerous, because if I went back to that kind of active daily work again today, I'd be treated like Nephmir and laughed out of the room. Gameplay is a ridiculous mess of hypocrites, drooling morons who think that "COPS" is some kind of holy rosary they can kiss to make their problems evaporate into mist, and people who just flat out don't give a damn.

The truth is that COPS has been dead and cold since 2012 (and arguably long before that), and the only justice any person or region can achieve for this kind of thing is the justice they can get themselves, with their own influence and power, and if you don't have any, you don't get it. Guess what, buddy boy; Westphalia was a willing part of the propaganda machine that tried to recapture New Earth and protect Rolamec, and Rolamec is only 3 months cold. For the first time in living memory, I might (TBH plans permitting) be about to get some justice for something personal. It's a raid, and there's all the complications that can surround a raid, but I'll judge the result according to the things that matter to me, and not what matters to the hypocrites and morons and people who don't care.

No matter the result of this raid, I have a new policy from now on- if someone that isn't an in context ally comes to me and asks for me to even lift a finger on offsite property destruction, even just to drop a banhammer, they're going to have to prove to me that they care objectively about the issue, and not just about their own problem. To do that, they'll have to help me solve one of mine, and because I'm a deeply distrustful person, I'll want my problem solved first, no matter how long it takes or how long ago it was. If Westphalia is saved, and any region involved in that (even to vote in favour of a liberation that passes) comes to ask, I'm going to tell them that they already had the chance to do the right thing. If I can't get justice, then I'll at least get fairness, and this feels quite fair to me.

Just out of curiosity, have you looked at the residency length of the natives of Westphalia? The longest residency is 4.7 years. Now, I'm not positive because its hard to tell, but what you're talking about happened before that right? The second longest residency is 3.6 years, and the next after that is 2.2 years. Although WikiPlay left the region at one point I know he may be from the period you speak of. Therefore, you're literally blaming a community that didn't exist during the period you speak of of doing something they had no part in.

[Fauxia]

No, you can go pound sand. In fact, even if it was Kshrlmnt or Savaer asking, I'd tell them to pound sand, never mind you. After The Commonwealth (the first region I was part of) collapsed because of repeated total deletions of the forum and promises of many more to come if it didn't disband, I made my entire NS career about trying to end this crap. I made many enemies back then, some of whom still despise me today, because of a total zero tolerance approach, but at least there were other people who actually shared my views. I helped regions I liked, and regions I hated, and chased out people I hated and people I liked. I even helped Rolamec and Westphalia once, after New Earth was destroyed. I'm glad I was eventually reasonably successful at dealing with anyone who was truly dangerous, because if I went back to that kind of active daily work again today, I'd be treated like Nephmir and laughed out of the room. Gameplay is a ridiculous mess of hypocrites, drooling morons who think that "COPS" is some kind of holy rosary they can kiss to make their problems evaporate into mist, and people who just flat out don't give a damn.

The truth is that COPS has been dead and cold since 2012 (and arguably long before that), and the only justice any person or region can achieve for this kind of thing is the justice they can get themselves, with their own influence and power, and if you don't have any, you don't get it. Guess what, buddy boy; Westphalia was a willing part of the propaganda machine that tried to recapture New Earth and protect Rolamec, and Rolamec is only 3 months cold. For the first time in living memory, I might (TBH plans permitting) be about to get some justice for something personal. It's a raid, and there's all the complications that can surround a raid, but I'll judge the result according to the things that matter to me, and not what matters to the hypocrites and morons and people who don't care.

No matter the result of this raid, I have a new policy from now on- if someone that isn't an in context ally comes to me and asks for me to even lift a finger on offsite property destruction, even just to drop a banhammer, they're going to have to prove to me that they care objectively about the issue, and not just about their own problem. To do that, they'll have to help me solve one of mine, and because I'm a deeply distrustful person, I'll want my problem solved first, no matter how long it takes or how long ago it was. If Westphalia is saved, and any region involved in that (even to vote in favour of a liberation that passes) comes to ask, I'm going to tell them that they already had the chance to do the right thing. If I can't get justice, then I'll at least get fairness, and this feels quite fair to me.

Just out of curiosity, have you looked at the residency length of the natives of Westphalia? The longest residency is 4.7 years. Now, I'm not positive because its hard to tell, but what you're talking about happened before that right? The second longest residency is 3.6 years, and the next after that is 2.2 years. Although WikiPlay left the region at one point I know he may be from the period you speak of. Therefore, you're literally blaming a community that didn't exist during the period you speak of of doing something they had no part in.

I mean, I think it’s a bit like a grudge against a RL country even if no one is left from the event that spurred it. It’s the “land” so to speak. It’s revenge against Rolamec and his regions, his “territory”, and Westphalia is one of those.

[Triangle And Square]

sorry moderators

"Liberate Westphalia" was defeated 11,859 votes to 5,901.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I'm still a little confused here as to why mainstream defenders were against this, tbh. With this failed, gonna be harder to pass one later if we do stick around with more issue fatigue and general less sympathy, and you open up the window for "no one is left there anyways." What was the big problem with pushing it through now anyways? The thing tossed out was that we might decide to make it difficult to remove us, if we were planning on leaving, I think? We could well do that anyways, with or with out it. There's kinda four situations here, I guess -

1) we were planning on staying around. No lib. We successfully stick around.

2) we were planning on staying around, then...
2a) an early lib passes. We either stick around anyways to thoroughly destroy the region on our way out, or we decide it's no longer worth the time and leave
2b) a late lib passes, we've already thoroughly destroyed the region on our way out

3) We were not planning on sticking around. No lib. We leave when we like.

4) We were not planning on sticking around. An early lib passes. We wouldn't change plans *to* stick around longer because a lib hit. We leave and the lib has to be repealed.

The point of that is, if the danger is "we make removing us totally destroy the region's influence" (which, by the way, take more influence than just cleaning all of them out ourselves then waiting a week or two for it to decay ), well that's not going to get any *more* likely because of a lib at any point. It gets slightly *less* likely, but why would we stick around *longer* because of a lib? Because of that, the "worst case" for defender here is that they pass a lib early, and we just leave...which...isn't that bad? Gotta shoot a repeal through. Easy pass, with natives behind it, as soon as the region is secure enough post-op.

So yeah. Don't really get why a "premature lib" is such a huge deal.