[DEFEATED] Commend Auralia

[Armaros]

Bold claim. Mind backing it up?

You seem to ignore the rulebreaking entirely.

OOC: What claim would you like backed up? If it's Auralia's fulfilment for a commendation, see the proposal. If it's something else, this isn't the place for it. Slights against me aren't relevant here either.

Your claim regarding people who took “OOC actions against players” being respected in the NS community. Those are rather bold claims, which you would do well to back up.

[Farburg]

I'm literally just going to commend them for banning abortion.

[Losthaven]

*Shakes off dust*

This is a hard vote for Losthaven. A predecessor of our nation was founded nearly the same time as Auralia, and during our most active time in the GA Auralia was a strong voice, if not always a rational or agreeable one. When we fell to decline, they continued to do great things all over the world. While at this late date we know them mostly through their general reputation, as we have lost track of their specific deeds, it is apparent that they have remained a force of great moment in this world we love.

Nonetheless, their past action in attempting to self-commend cannot be reconciled with those other good deeds. Whether you consider that a violation of law and rules, or mainly a violation of the norms that should constrain all nations, it is readily apparent that the vast majority agree that their behavior in this regard was dishonorable. While a nation is of course redeemable, it also readily apparent that the violation Auralia perpetrated has been burned into its history. The violation deserves appropriate response, both to deter others from similar misdeeds and to bestow on Auralia the proper regard, due to any sovereign, that they own responsibility for their actions both good and ill.

Having once violated a sacred trust in an effort to wrongly acquire a commendation, Auralia ought to forever be denied that prize.

With a heavy heart, Losthaven votes NO.

[Jocospor]

OOC: What claim would you like backed up? If it's Auralia's fulfilment for a commendation, see the proposal. If it's something else, this isn't the place for it. Slights against me aren't relevant here either.

Your claim regarding people who took “OOC actions against players” being respected in the NS community. Those are rather bold claims, which you would do well to back up.

OOC: They're not bold claims at all, and stop trying to call my bluff. Everyone is well aware that high ranking players within the WA and also NSGP have engaged in and condoned actions like blackmail, doxxing, skiptracing and even actual bribery.

My point of raising this was a) because it had already been raised, and I wished to echo it; and b) to put Auralia's "self-commend crimes" in perspective.

[United Massachusetts]

Your claim regarding people who took “OOC actions against players” being respected in the NS community. Those are rather bold claims, which you would do well to back up.

OOC: They're not bold claims at all, and stop trying to call my bluff. Everyone is well aware that high ranking players within the WA and also NSGP have engaged in and condoned actions like blackmail, doxxing, skiptracing and even actual bribery.

My point of raising this was a) because it had already been raised, and I wished to echo it; and b) to put Auralia's "self-commend crimes" in perspective.

Accusations of illegal activity by other players aren't allowed on this site, I don't think.

(It's also not related to the topic, so I suggest we drop it going forward.)

[United Massachusetts]

Having once violated a sacred trust in an effort to wrongly acquire a commendation, Auralia ought to forever be denied that prize.

With a heavy heart, Losthaven votes NO.

Eternal grudges for a stupid decision for which the player has since repented?

[Losthaven]

Having once violated a sacred trust in an effort to wrongly acquire a commendation, Auralia ought to forever be denied that prize.

With a heavy heart, Losthaven votes NO.

Eternal grudges for a stupid decision for which the player has since repented?

Is that what I said? I thought I said, in the part you didn't quote, that Auralia has done fine things, and that this was a hard vote for me.

There are multiple theories of justice. I've argued that two counsel against awarding Auralia a commendation: the deterrence value in disincentivizing others who want a commendation from trying the same tactic he tried, and ontological value in allowing a person to bear personal responsibility for their wrongs by denying them that which they sought to obtain through fraudulent means.

See, what you've done here is a "straw man" argument, a classic fallacy. You didn't respond to what I actually wrote. Instead you clipped part of it out of context, re-characterized my position as a "grudge," and then knocked over your unfair re-characterization of my position by arguing that it's stupid to hold grudges against someone who has repented.

Textbook fallacious reasoning.

[Tim Stark]

Additionally, let's not forget at Auralia's attempt at a UCR-based coup of the Game-Created Region Lazarus, him desiring to instill a theocratic region in one of the GCRs. Ain't keen on commending someone like that, man.

Also, "coup a GCR"? Lazarus was in anarchy, and no successor government had been announced. Also drivel.

Except it wasn't in anarchy, many of us behind the scenes clearly knew it wasn't in anarchy, and I pretty damn clearly indicated to the Catholic Inquisition For Making Lazarus An Even Worse Place that the anarchy wasn't what it seemed to be.

Anyways, GP nonsense aside, I'm happy to discuss Auralia's commendation when he becomes happy to discuss his nation's compliance with all General Assembly resolutions. If we're commending somebody for primarily GA-involved matters, I don't believe it would be all too becoming of the Security Council to pass a commendation for somebody who willfully flouts this august body's resolutions.

[Borovan entered the region as he]

OOC: They're not bold claims at all, and stop trying to call my bluff. Everyone is well aware that high ranking players within the WA and also NSGP have engaged in and condoned actions like blackmail, doxxing, skiptracing and even actual bribery.

My point of raising this was a) because it had already been raised, and I wished to echo it; and b) to put Auralia's "self-commend crimes" in perspective.

Accusations of illegal activity by other players aren't allowed on this site, I don't think.

(It's also not related to the topic, so I suggest we drop it going forward.)

I think it's towards a player or players specific. Jocospor wasn't pointing and singling out someone
/not a mod
Edit: region is included in the rules also so I dunno if it applies to a group

[Tinhampton]

YEA for a more-than-deserving nominee.

---

...let's not forget at Auralia's attempt at a UCR-based coup of the Game-Created Region Lazarus, him desiring to instill a theocratic region in one of the GCRs. Ain't keen on commending someone like that, man.

Considering that Lazarus declared itself an anarchy and encouraged such behavior, seems okay to me.

It was also not that serious of an attempt.

So you're saying that "Lazarus is in anarchy... okay let me seize control of it and establish a Christian government" is perfectly fine?

And this is, for the record, at vote.

I was also gunning for the Lazarene WA Delegacy* back when it was an unofficial warzone in April '18 - for no other reason other than to impose my vaguely-defined agenda of "stability," and apart from my involvement in the then-Union of Liberal Nations - but also had sympathy for the Christian Lazarus cause (after all, Osiris and Balder do have themes that match with the inspirations behind their names) and was not a fan of the abrupt ConCon... well, I think we'll have to leave this conversation for Commend Tinhampton, shall we?

*There are two factual inaccuracies in my pastiche of Vitai Lampada. Can you spot them?

[Praeceps]

OOC: If Auralia's attempt to self-commend is the only thing holding back everyone from voting for, give him the bloody badge. The player tried to do something that wasn't popular (a long time ago) - okay, sure. But look what the player has done during their time in NationStates.

Hate to agree with Jocospor but ... I agree with Jocospor. One thing 4 years ago that was unpopular (and against site rules) shouldn't drown out the immense GA work as well as a myriad of tools that are open source and available for the entire community to use.

I'm sure there are plenty of people which are voting against the resolution due to the self-commend and WA multiing, however, there have been plenty of other reasons given for voting against including but not limited to:

1. non-compliance with GA resolutions (blending his OOC beliefs with IC)
2. inconsistent policy with the Catholic Church on the death penalty
3. an initial reaction to being caught attempting to self-commend and WA multi by saying he didn't do anything wrong (and some also believe the subsequent apology was politically motivated)
4. lying about being Railana at first before admitting it
5. potentially attempting to mislead the WA by submitting a proposal under another nation which gave the appearance of a group of individuals and looked official
6. poor word selection in the proposal

I've seen people list a combination of some of the above, in addition to the self-commendation and WA multiing. I will make no judgements (in this post at least) as to whether these arguments are good reasons for voting against. Most people I have noticed have some sort of combination for reasons to vote against.

[Prydania]

From an OOC standpoint Auralia broke the rules and got caught. Tough breaks.

From an IC standpoint Auralia regularly disregards WA resolutions under his non-compliance doctrine. The WA should not be commending someone who holds its own resolutions in contempt.

I've had the pleasure of meeting UM through the Core, and I can say that differences aside? He's a good dude and sincere in his beliefs. I have a lot of respect for him personally. And I hope that he knows me from conversations we've had that I have that respect.

That being said...I cannot support this commendation. Auralia isn't a force for good in this game. I would support a badge for UM (though ideally I'd suggest waiting for a few years) in a heartbeat. Auralia though? No.

[Lord Dominator]

(blending his OOC beliefs with IC)

No more so than anyone else building their IC nation based on their OOC brliefs.

[Praeceps]

(blending his OOC beliefs with IC)

No more so than anyone else building their IC nation based on their OOC brliefs.

You're welcome to read any of the longer posts making this argument and reply to them instead of part of a line from a post intended to illustrate other reasons people are voting for... That post was hardly intended to persuade anyone of the validity of any of the arguments listed.

[Armaros]

YEA for a more-than-deserving nominee.

---

...let's not forget at Auralia's attempt at a UCR-based coup of the Game-Created Region Lazarus, him desiring to instill a theocratic region in one of the GCRs. Ain't keen on commending someone like that, man.

So you're saying that "Lazarus is in anarchy... okay let me seize control of it and establish a Christian government" is perfectly fine?

And this is, for the record, at vote.

I was also gunning for the Lazarene WA Delegacy* back when it was an unofficial warzone in April '18 - for no other reason other than to impose my vaguely-defined agenda of "stability," and apart from my involvement in the then-Union of Liberal Nations - but also had sympathy for the Christian Lazarus cause (after all, Osiris and Balder do have themes that match with the inspirations behind their names) and was not a fan of the abrupt ConCon... well, I think we'll have to leave this conversation for Commend Tinhampton, shall we?

*There are two factual inaccuracies in my pastiche of Vitai Lampada. Can you spot them?

That does not make me think more highly of you or Auralia and is, quite frankly, irrelevant to the proposal.

[Borovan entered the region as he]

A blond girl with glasses and ponytail says "We shall be abstaining from this resolution as we believe it is the correct stance."

[Youssath]

The Youssathian Ambassador sends a reminder to the Security Council in his speech, informing them that this world is not simply bipolar and that individuals should not be forced into voting simply "for" and "against" to voice their opinions. He then continues to inform the Security Council that The Republic of Youssath shall be abstaining from this vote and urges WA member states to do the same given the complexity of this case which has brought about a controversial public opinion on this divided figure.

Dispatch: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1239150

[Kinnies]

Setting aside what Aurelia did with their puppet, the use of WA multis is grounds for ejection. Auralia is lucky to even remain in the Assembly. Furthermore, it is preposterous to ask that we commend a nation that holds a policy of directly defying WA law.

[Wallenburg]

The Youssathian Ambassador sends a reminder to the Security Council in his speech, informing them that this world is not simply bipolar and that individuals should not be forced into voting simply "for" and "against" to voice their opinions. He then continues to inform the Security Council that The Republic of Youssath shall be abstaining from this vote and urges WA member states to do the same given the complexity of this case which has brought about a controversial public opinion on this divided figure.

Dispatch: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1239150

The opinion of another rogue state is of no interest to me regarding a commendation of a rogue state.

[Mahrenbach]

The Mahrenbach Federation is going to abstain from voting on the resolution to commend Auralia. While we clearly recognize the merits of Aurelia and United Massachusetts alike, we feel the current resolution is... incoherent in its substance and background. The ongoing debate has only reinforced our view on this matter.

Naomi Hilmar,
Secretary of foreign affairs

[Lord Dominator]

No more so than anyone else building their IC nation based on their OOC brliefs.

You're welcome to read any of the longer posts making this argument and reply to them instead of part of a line from a post intended to illustrate other reasons people are voting for... That post was hardly intended to persuade anyone of the validity of any of the arguments listed.

Nor was my notation, just noting that your suggestions of IC/OOC conflation on the part of Auralia is an odd one given general rp.

[Praeceps]

You're welcome to read any of the longer posts making this argument and reply to them instead of part of a line from a post intended to illustrate other reasons people are voting for... That post was hardly intended to persuade anyone of the validity of any of the arguments listed.

Nor was my notation, just noting that your suggestions of IC/OOC conflation on the part of Auralia is an odd one given general rp.

That kind of reads like an argument to me...

[Lord Dominator]

Nor was my notation, just noting that your suggestions of IC/OOC conflation on the part of Auralia is an odd one given general rp.

That kind of reads like an argument to me...

Mmm

[Youssath]

The opinion of another rogue state is of no interest to me regarding a commendation of a rogue state.

"And yet my vote is equal to yours, ambassador. Do you see the foolishness in your ways of actually pretending to "enforce" a weak and inefficient bureaucratic supranational organization that does nothing but merely sends sweet letters to non-complaint and "creative compliant" nations?"

"This organization cannot simply make regimes disappear just because some democratic nation from the other isle of the world asked for it."

[Wallenburg]

The opinion of another rogue state is of no interest to me regarding a commendation of a rogue state.

"And yet my vote is equal to yours, ambassador. Do you see the foolishness in your ways of actually pretending to "enforce" a weak and inefficient bureaucratic supranational organization that does nothing but merely sends sweet letters to non-complaint and "creative compliant" nations?"

"This organization cannot simply make regimes disappear just because some democratic nation from the other isle of the world asked for it."

"Ambassador." Deputy Representative Holt sighs, deeply resenting his requirement to attend Security Council votes. "The World Assembly exercises several powers in addition to giving directives to comply with all passed legislation. The World Assembly Compliance Commission actively investigates potential noncompliance and compiles evidence of member violations for the World Assembly. By the authorities delegated in the Administrative Compliance Act, such violations are subject to heavy, continuing fines scaled to make noncompliance less desirable than compliance. Member states will raise sanctions against you if you do not pay these fines. By the authorities delegated in the World Assembly Justice Accord, this organization's Judicial Committee may hear cases brought against member states or any actors within their jurisdiction for violations of World Assembly law. The courts of this Judicial Committee determine guilt and sentencing for such violations."

Holt leans forward, clearly unimpressed with the individual representing their banana republic. "As a result of your state's broad violations of international law, my nation and much of the World Assembly are inclined not to recognize your state as enjoying the rights associated with World Assembly membership."