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[PASSED] Ban on Ritual Sacrifice

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Imperial Polk County
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[PASSED] Ban on Ritual Sacrifice

Postby Imperial Polk County » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:32 am

Ambassador Herbert Drane IV steps to the front of the debate hall. "My fellow ambassadors, it has come to my attention that there are areas of the world where ritual sacrifice still takes place. I find such abhorrent practices a violation of human rights and, frankly, I am shocked that this esteemed body has not yet addressed this issue. All input is welcome."


Ban on Ritual Sacrifice
Category: Human Rights | Strength: Mild | Authored By: Imperial Polk County


The World Assembly:

Understanding
that the universe is composed of beings of diverse cultures, backgrounds and religions;

Having considered that the importance of certain cultural and religious practices are integral to the beliefs of such followers;

However dismayed that there are those who, in the name of said culture or religion, continue to perform traditional rituals that cause irreparable harm or death;

Determining that such actions are violations of the basic human right to live;

Defining "ritual sacrifice" as the intentional and ritualistic act of killing one or more other beings (a) as an offering to a god or spirit, (b) as an effort to control sapient population growth, or (c) as a method by which a ruling class or regime creates or perpetuates social hierarchy;

Clarifying that such "ritual sacrifice" does not include capital punishment, assisted suicide or euthanasia of a terminally ill patient or other medical procedures, or any acts of war including insurgency and counterinsurgency;

Hereby:

1. Bans the ritual sacrifice of sapient beings in all member nations;

2. Requires member nations criminalize such acts of ritual sacrifice and prosecute perpetrators accordingly;

3. Urges member nations to ban the ritual sacrifice of animals and other sentient beings.


Changelog:
Rev 1: Revised definition (c), added "Clarifying" clause, added criminalization clause.
Rev 2: Added "intentional" to definition; added "sapient" to definition part (b); added medical procedure exclusion
Rev 3: Changed title
Rev 4: Added ritualistic nature to definition, modified war exception, added "other" to "one or more (other) beings" in definition to exclude self-sacrifice
Last edited by Ransium on Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:01 am, edited 11 times in total.
-- Herbert Jackson Drane IV, WA Ambassador of the newly independent Imperial Polk County, Population 665,000. That "xxx million" population stat? It's most certainly a typo.

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:39 am

"'Requires member states make commission or conspiracy to commit ritual sacrifice illegal, and prosecute perpetrators accordingly.'"

What's the problem with lawyer jokes?
Lawyer's don't think they're funny, and no one else thinks they're jokes.

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Old Hope
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Postby Old Hope » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:40 am

Contradiction.
GAR 285.
1. Grants every member state, subject only to this resolution and active resolutions previously adopted by this Assembly, the authority to determine for itself the legal status of assisted suicide and euthanasia in its jurisdiction;

2. Declares that residents of member states, subject to the normal migration and travel laws, have the freedom to travel to foreign jurisdictions where assisted suicide or euthanasia is legal for the purpose of undergoing such a procedure;

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:45 am

Old Hope wrote:Contradiction.
GAR 285.
1. Grants every member state, subject only to this resolution and active resolutions previously adopted by this Assembly, the authority to determine for itself the legal status of assisted suicide and euthanasia in its jurisdiction;

2. Declares that residents of member states, subject to the normal migration and travel laws, have the freedom to travel to foreign jurisdictions where assisted suicide or euthanasia is legal for the purpose of undergoing such a procedure;

OOC: As usual, incorrect. Euthanasia and assisted suicide are very specific medical treatments. They are not ritual sacrifice. No contradiction.

What's the problem with lawyer jokes?
Lawyer's don't think they're funny, and no one else thinks they're jokes.

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Imperial Polk County
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Postby Imperial Polk County » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:48 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:"'Requires member states make commission or conspiracy to commit ritual sacrifice illegal, and prosecute perpetrators accordingly.'"

"You remind me of my ex-wife, Ambassador Bell. Are you a lawyer by trade? Anyway, I get what you're saying and I agree, I'll add a clause 3 to the next draft. Thank you."

Old Hope wrote:Contradiction.
GAR 285.
1. Grants every member state, subject only to this resolution and active resolutions previously adopted by this Assembly, the authority to determine for itself the legal status of assisted suicide and euthanasia in its jurisdiction;

2. Declares that residents of member states, subject to the normal migration and travel laws, have the freedom to travel to foreign jurisdictions where assisted suicide or euthanasia is legal for the purpose of undergoing such a procedure;

"What does ritual murder have to do with euthanasia?"
Last edited by Imperial Polk County on Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
-- Herbert Jackson Drane IV, WA Ambassador of the newly independent Imperial Polk County, Population 665,000. That "xxx million" population stat? It's most certainly a typo.

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:49 am

Imperial Polk County wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"'Requires member states make commission or conspiracy to commit ritual sacrifice illegal, and prosecute perpetrators accordingly.'"

"You remind me of my ex-wife, Ambassador Bell. Are you a lawyer by trade? Anyway, I get what you're saying and I agree, I'll add a clause 3 to the next draft. Thank you."


Bell flutters his eyelashes and waves coyly at Drane.

What's the problem with lawyer jokes?
Lawyer's don't think they're funny, and no one else thinks they're jokes.

Third year law student, homebrewer, and cat worshiper

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Old Hope
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Postby Old Hope » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:50 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Old Hope wrote:Contradiction.
GAR 285.


OOC: As usual, incorrect. Euthanasia and assisted suicide are very specific medical treatments. They are not ritual sacrifice. No contradiction.

No, ambassador. YOU are incorrect.
If the recipient consents to the act of ritual sacrifice, and wants to die through it, then it is a form of assisted suicide.
However, if this proposal would ban only nonconsensual ritual sacrifice, then we would no longer see any contradiction.

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:55 am

Old Hope wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:OOC: As usual, incorrect. Euthanasia and assisted suicide are very specific medical treatments. They are not ritual sacrifice. No contradiction.

No, ambassador. YOU are incorrect.
If the recipient consents to the act of ritual sacrifice, and wants to die through it, then it is a form of assisted suicide.
However, if this proposal would ban only nonconsensual ritual sacrifice, then we would no longer see any contradiction.

OOC: You can argue all you want, but that isn't the case. Assisted suicide and euthanasia have distinct medical terms and connotations. Ergo, they are medical procedures. Ritual killing is not a medical procedure. In fact, it's about as far from a medical procedure as you can get, as it has nothing to do with managing pain or dignified end of life choices.

As usual, I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. If you persist, I encourage you to submit a Legality Challenge, where this will be definitively settled. I doubt you'd be happy with the direction it goes, but its your time to gamble.

What's the problem with lawyer jokes?
Lawyer's don't think they're funny, and no one else thinks they're jokes.

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Imperial Polk County
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Postby Imperial Polk County » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:57 am

Old Hope wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:OOC: As usual, incorrect. Euthanasia and assisted suicide are very specific medical treatments. They are not ritual sacrifice. No contradiction.

No, ambassador. YOU are incorrect.
If the recipient consents to the act of ritual sacrifice, and wants to die through it, then it is a form of assisted suicide.
However, if this proposal would ban only nonconsensual ritual sacrifice, then we would no longer see any contradiction.

OOC: You should look up "assisted suicide" in the dictionary. The proposal's definition of "ritual sacrifice" clearly does not include assisted suicide.
-- Herbert Jackson Drane IV, WA Ambassador of the newly independent Imperial Polk County, Population 665,000. That "xxx million" population stat? It's most certainly a typo.

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Old Hope
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Postby Old Hope » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:06 am

Imperial Polk County wrote:
Old Hope wrote:No, ambassador. YOU are incorrect.
If the recipient consents to the act of ritual sacrifice, and wants to die through it, then it is a form of assisted suicide.
However, if this proposal would ban only nonconsensual ritual sacrifice, then we would no longer see any contradiction.

OOC: You should look up "assisted suicide" in the dictionary. The proposal's definition of "ritual sacrifice" clearly does not include assisted suicide.

OOC:I did. It supports my assertion that assisted suicide is every suicide with the assistance of someone else who does not necessarily have to be a doctor.
Defining "ritual sacrifice" as the act of killing one or more beings (a) as an offering to a god or spirit, (b) as an effort to control population growth, or (c) as a method to inflict order upon society or induce submissiveness by its populace;

I'd agree to the notion that (c) is probably not problematic in that case(although it bans the death penalty which could cause support for your proposal to drop)
(b) and (a) are different: It might be reasonable to assume that people would agree to kill themselves during a period of excessive population growth.. and it is DEFINITELY reasonable to assume that people would want to offer themselves as sacrifices to a god or spirit.

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:14 am

Old Hope wrote:I'd agree to the notion that (c) is probably not problematic in that case(although it bans the death penalty which could cause support for your proposal to drop)

OOC: That isn't why the death penalty is used. The death penalty has literally never had a noticeable deterrence effect.The death penalty is rooted in the idea of permanently separating individuals from society and out of moral justification. If the death penalty was an effective deterrent, people wouldn't commit capital crimes.

(b) and (a) are different: It might be reasonable to assume that people would agree to kill themselves during a period of excessive population growth..

OOC: In which case, their death isn't assisted suicide, just regular suicide, and therefore not a ritual sacrifice.

and it is DEFINITELY reasonable to assume that people would want to offer themselves as sacrifices to a god or spirit.

OOC: One cannot evade criminal penalties by holding up consent to a capital crime. The sacrificer is still a murderer. At any rate, this is irrelevant, because that's not a medical reason, and assisted suicide and euthanasia are implicitly tied to medical procedures.

If you want to continue to dispute this, I suggest you submit a Legality Challenge. The author doesn't seem convinced in any way.

What's the problem with lawyer jokes?
Lawyer's don't think they're funny, and no one else thinks they're jokes.

Third year law student, homebrewer, and cat worshiper

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Old Hope
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Postby Old Hope » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:21 am

A wants to die(maybe in a special way;for whatever reason).
B helps A to die.
That is assisted suicide.

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Imperial Polk County
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Postby Imperial Polk County » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:24 am

OOC:
as·sist·ed su·i·cide
noun
the suicide of a patient suffering from an incurable disease, effected by the taking of lethal drugs provided by a doctor for this purpose.


I'm not changing it.
-- Herbert Jackson Drane IV, WA Ambassador of the newly independent Imperial Polk County, Population 665,000. That "xxx million" population stat? It's most certainly a typo.

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Old Hope
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Postby Old Hope » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:28 am

Your law also seems to criminalize suicide itself, as long as it is done in a manner deemed to be ritual sacrifice, and criminalizing suicide attempts is something that could cause your support to drop.

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Netherspace
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Postby Netherspace » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:29 am

Old Hope wrote:A wants to die(maybe in a special way;for whatever reason).
B helps A to die.
That is assisted suicide.


A worships B.
B demands sacrifice.
A kills C in the name of B.
That is ritual sacrifice. As you can see, it is different.

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Old Hope
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Postby Old Hope » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:33 am

Netherspace wrote:
Old Hope wrote:A wants to die(maybe in a special way;for whatever reason).
B helps A to die.
That is assisted suicide.


A worships B.
B demands sacrifice.
A kills C in the name of B.
That is ritual sacrifice. As you can see, it is different.

No, ambassador. Ritual sacrifice(for the purposes of this resolution) is that what the resolution defines it as,
Defining "ritual sacrifice" as the act of killing one or more beings (a) as an offering to a god or spirit, (b) as an effort to control population growth, or (c) as a method to inflict order upon society or induce submissiveness by its populace;

and that definition is different.

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:36 am

Old Hope wrote:Your law also seems to criminalize suicide itself, as long as it is done in a manner deemed to be ritual sacrifice, and criminalizing suicide attempts is something that could cause your support to drop.

Imperial Polk County wrote:OOC:
as·sist·ed su·i·cide
noun
the suicide of a patient suffering from an incurable disease, effected by the taking of lethal drugs provided by a doctor for this purpose.


I'm not changing it.


OOC: Submit a Challenge or give up, dude.

What's the problem with lawyer jokes?
Lawyer's don't think they're funny, and no one else thinks they're jokes.

Third year law student, homebrewer, and cat worshiper

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Desmosthenes and Burke
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Postby Desmosthenes and Burke » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:37 am

Imperial Polk County wrote:OOC:
as·sist·ed su·i·cide
noun
the suicide of a patient suffering from an incurable disease, effected by the taking of lethal drugs provided by a doctor for this purpose.


I'm not changing it.


OOC: I'd suggest ignoring anything else from Old Hope. Putting forth the most ridiculous and tortured interpretation possible to cause problems seems to be their thing.

IC:

"We're somewhat concerned that definition C would ban the use of decimation in the armed forces, but since we've not done that in nearly 100 years, and it is in fact fairly barbaric, our objection is mild at best. We do express a complete reservation as to operative clause 2. We sacrifice quite a few ewes and rams every year to keep Lord Iupiter happy. That said, we have on problem banning the sacrifice of sapient individuals."

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Old Hope
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Postby Old Hope » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:53 am

Imperial Polk County wrote:OOC:
as·sist·ed su·i·cide
noun
the suicide of a patient suffering from an incurable disease, effected by the taking of lethal drugs provided by a doctor for this purpose.


I'm not changing it.

Yeah the term assisted suicide is sometimes interchangably used for euthanasia. Since GAR 285 does mention both as distinct entities... you can rule that out.

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Imperial Polk County
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Postby Imperial Polk County » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:53 am

Desmosthenes and Burke wrote:"We're somewhat concerned that definition C would ban the use of decimation in the armed forces, but since we've not done that in nearly 100 years, and it is in fact fairly barbaric, our objection is mild at best. We do express a complete reservation as to operative clause 2. We sacrifice quite a few ewes and rams every year to keep Lord Iupiter happy. That said, we have on problem banning the sacrifice of sapient individuals."

"I suppose decimation would fall under the definition, yes, but I have no reservations about its inclusion. Your mild objection is noted. As for animal sacrifice, I understand this could be a controversial issue, which is why I did not make it a mandate, and I have no intention of making it a mandate. I do believe that In today's world you really ought to stop sacrificing sheep, but under this proposal you would merely get a finger-wag for doing it, if that."
-- Herbert Jackson Drane IV, WA Ambassador of the newly independent Imperial Polk County, Population 665,000. That "xxx million" population stat? It's most certainly a typo.

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Old Hope
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Postby Old Hope » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:55 am

Defining "ritual sacrifice" as the act of killing one or more beings (a) as an offering to a god or spirit, (b) as an effort to control population growth, or (c) as a method to inflict order upon society or induce submissiveness by its populace;

Wait a moment. Doesn't (c) ban any of the following: warfare, shooting people who want to escape from prison, shooting someone who resists arrest and flees... et al?

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Imperial Polk County
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Postby Imperial Polk County » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:58 am

Drane rolls his eyes. "I'll consider rewording part (c) of the definition to make it clearer."
-- Herbert Jackson Drane IV, WA Ambassador of the newly independent Imperial Polk County, Population 665,000. That "xxx million" population stat? It's most certainly a typo.

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Naqil
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Postby Naqil » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:21 am

"In my nation, ritual sacrifice is used as a means of legal and judicially-prescribed form of execution, and is a much faster death than in some other execution methods," says Ixhua, ambassador of Naqil. "I suggest adding an exception for judicial punishment, Ambassador."
This nation's views do not necessarily coincide with my own. Please assume all statements are IC unless specified otherwise.

The Naqin Ambassador is Ixhua of House Yavuas. She's extremely traditionalist, and is known to have her eye on the Presidency for when President Dratan retires.

Essu Beti is my puppet, in theory. In actuality I use Essu Beti as more or less my default these days even though this account came first.

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Imperial Polk County
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Postby Imperial Polk County » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:33 am

"Thank you all for your comments; I've revised the proposal accordingly."
-- Herbert Jackson Drane IV, WA Ambassador of the newly independent Imperial Polk County, Population 665,000. That "xxx million" population stat? It's most certainly a typo.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:59 am

I hope you have not taken into consideration any of the drivel blathered by Old Hope's garbage centre.

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