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[PASSED] Freedom to Seek Medical Care

A carefully preserved record of the most notable World Assembly debates.

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Potted Plants United
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Founded: Jan 14, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Potted Plants United » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:29 pm

A speaker plant that had been motionlessly residing in one corner of the room, extended its mobility vines from underneath its fronds, and pushed itself forward a little to indicate that the hivemind was joining the discussion.

"First of all, I really would advice against using "section" for "clause" in a medically-related proposal, due to its surgical meaning. Calling your clauses incisions is perhaps not the best way to ensure people will respond to them positively. Secondly, I would most strongly advice against focusing on mere legality of the proposal, as that tends to lead to such resolutions being quickly repealed due to general distaste of the wording or the effect, even though it may be legal.

To remedy that, the proposal most likely should be rewritten with the author's stated intent in mind. If the lack of resources in the patient's home nation is the true core of the problem that this proposal seeks to remedy, then that should in fact be stated in the active clauses, not merely the preamble - which, I'm sure most ambassadors around here would agree to be mostly meaningless fluff meant to court the voters to your side. Which reminds me that the apparent success of the previous attempt should not be taken as absolute support for the proposal topic.

Proposals with words like "freedom" in the title are more likely to do well simply because many voters do not read past the title. And same for the preamble - one could have active clauses that have the exact opposite effect from what they wish in the preamble, and many voters would still vote for it, simply because of the empty wishes laid out in the preamble clauses. In fact, half of your current preamble clauses go counter to what your active clauses' effects are.

To emphasize the intent, the active clauses should include the modifier "if appropriate care is not available even to a patient with adequate funds in the WA nation the patient is a permanent resident of". Because if someone has enough money to travel to another nation and there pay for their medical care, they most likely have enough money to pay for their medical care in their own nation. Unless they indeed seek to take advantage of a foreign nation's universal healthcare or lower standards of medical care.

However, if mere legality is your main concern, you should take your own advice to understand why your first active clause is still illegal. There is another reason for it as well, but it is up to the author to make their proposal legal, and nothing forces those of us who might feel like helping the drafting process to actually point out all the illegalities we perceive, especially if the author has proven to be very stubborn about advice given.
(OOC: Yes, I noticed something else that isn't but most likely should be in your exceptions list.)

Also, while I understand that your clause 2 is "merely" an urges clause, it - along with clauses 1 and 3 - still ignores the fact that a nation is completely within its rights to ban medical tourism as well as letting any foreigners cross its borders, and as such has no legal obligation - and certainly none that this proposal can force on them - to "expedite their legal processes for travel". In fact, clauses 1 and 3 are in direct contradiction with clause 7. Clause 2 also clashes with clause 7, though to a slightly lesser extent. Such internal contradiction should not be allowed to exist, because right now the proposal tries to prohibit the nations from doing something that it allows them to do.

As mentioned above, clause 3 should not exist. Or else it is trying to have an effect that its text does not actually say. If your meaning is to prohibit nations from letting people leave to seek medical attention, then you need to actually say so. You cannot legally require nations to accept medical tourists, whether or not they carry an infectious disease. Which also reminds me that nowhere do you mention anything about transport. Unless the patient is well enough to walk or swim - or in the more exotic cases, fly - over the border under their own power, no carrier is or should be forced to accept someone onboard who may suffer from a sudden medical complication mid-travel.

Take for example an airliner; if someone has just had surgery, or is in such poor condition as to be at a death's door, the airliner would be well within its rights, as they would be defined in a reasonable nation, to forbid such a patient from traveling aboard their planes, if there were strong medical reasons to suspect that they would not be able to complete the flight without suffering a medical emergency. You can then extend this reasoning to cover any other form of non-private travel. You might mitigate the problem by adding something in the active clauses to make the traveling patient sign a waiver in which the transporting company is not to be held responsible if something should go horribly wrong with the patient that can be directly be blamed on their condition or disease. But even then you should not force a commercial or national transporting company to accept such a person aboard their vehicles.

Clause 4 should be mandatory to be in line with previously passed legislation.

Clause 5 will pose another legality issue when compared with existing legislation. There are certain actions that are mandatorily criminalized by the World Assembly, while the medical action itself might not be. Also, you should refer to the World Assembly doing the banning, not the General Assembly. The General Assembly is merely the legislative branch of the World Assembly, a function that, though it can potentially affect all the member nations, is still fairly small compared to what all the committees and of course the member nations themselves do every day.

Clause 6 has potential to prove confusing as you mention "nation of origin" as the only one not responsible for financing the medical tourism. I hope the author is aware that not all WA citizens reside in their nation of origin, but are in fact "legal aliens" in another member nation. Which nation should be free of the financing in such a case? And also, if the whole idea of the proposal is that the medical tourist would finance all their expenses - travel and medical care - then certainly also the nation where they travel to should not be held financially responsible for them!

Clause 7 should be made clause 1, and the subsequent clauses should include the modifier for the exclusion granted in it."


The hivemind quietly decided that it would make its own ability to be medically helpful to the citizens of other WA nations even more of a secret, should the slightly deranged proposal manage to pass.
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Aclion
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Founded: Apr 12, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Aclion » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:43 pm

Tinfect wrote:
Aclion wrote:Child abuse is illegal under #222 and as such transportation to another country(WA member or not) is not protected by section 5.


OOC:
That clause applies specifically to medical treatments, try again.

Which is the subject of this proposal. Does this draft grant any travel rights not specific to those seeking medical treatment?
A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. - James Madison.

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Araraukar
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:47 pm

Aclion wrote:Which is the subject of this proposal. Does this draft grant any travel rights not specific to those seeking medical treatment?

OOC: Actually, medical treatment isn't the subject of the proposal as currently written. The subject right now is people's right to travel. Read the dissertation I wrote on PPU to see most of my arguments against the current wording.
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Aclion
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Ex-Nation

Postby Aclion » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:55 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Aclion wrote:Which is the subject of this proposal. Does this draft grant any travel rights not specific to those seeking medical treatment?

OOC: Actually, medical treatment isn't the subject of the proposal as currently written. The subject right now is people's right to travel.

Good, then you can quote a part of this resolution that grants a right to travel to persons not seeking medical treatment.
Last edited by Aclion on Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. - James Madison.

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Araraukar
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:11 pm

Aclion wrote:Good, then you can quote a part of this resolution that grants a right to travel to persons not seeking medical treatment.

OOC: Are you speaking OOC or IC?
- ambassador miss Janis Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.

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Aclion
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Founded: Apr 12, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Aclion » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:16 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Aclion wrote:Good, then you can quote a part of this resolution that grants a right to travel to persons not seeking medical treatment.

OOC: Are you speaking OOC or IC?

OOC. Celice isn't quite quite psychotic enough to be talking to imaginary people.(I guess that's real people in this context.)
Anyway this entire conversion is one of rules violations so necessarily OOC.
Last edited by Aclion on Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. - James Madison.

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Araraukar
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:26 pm

Aclion wrote:Anyway this entire conversion is one of rules violations so necessarily OOC.

OOC: It just helps if you put the OOC tag into your posts, since you can quite easily talk about most rules issues in IC, like I did with PPU.

As for your question about the traveling rights, I'm fairly sure you know exactly what I meant. You alledged that the proposal was about medical procedures. Where exactly does it legislate on the medical procedures themselves? More than half of the active clauses are about nations being prohibited from disallowing people to travel to seek medical care.

Clause 5 is the only one that even remotely mentions the procedures or treatments performed or being performed, and that's 1 in 7 (or about 14%) active clauses. Whereas 4 out of 7 (57%) of the active clauses concern people traveling, and the rest 2 out of 7 (about 29%) are about patients rights (which is basically just repeating existing legislation) and finances.

Thus, the proposal is about traveling rights.
- ambassador miss Janis Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.

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Tinfect
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Founded: Jul 04, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tinfect » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:40 pm

Aclion wrote:Anyway this entire conversion is one of rules violations so necessarily OOC.


OOC:
It is entirely possible to discuss many rules, especially contradiction, in-character.

In any case... Let me resolve this particularly absurd line of questioning.

SECTION 5: Prohibits member nations from prosecuting citizens who seek medical treatments or operations abroad that are illegal or banned within their own borders but that have not been banned by the General Assembly, and requires that individuals who obtain such treatment be accepted back into their home nation without prejudice or any legal repercussions based on their medical treatment.


You see what that says? I certainly hope so, as you quoted it yourself. It prohibits Member-States from prosecuting Citizens who go to some Non-Member-State to have their kid's meningitis treated with the leeches instead of actual, effective medical treatment.

Now, some relevant bits from Resolution 222:

DEFINES the following for the purpose of this resolution:
[...]
Child abuse as any and/or all of the following:
[...]
iv. when a guardian deprives, intentionally or otherwise, a child of necessities such as care, nourishment, shelter, and/or healthcare on a long term or continuous basis, if that guardian is capable of providing such;
[...]
MANDATES that all acts of child abuse be criminalised
REQUIRES nations to investigate fully, and to the best of their ability, all reports of child abuse;
REQUIRES nations take all reasonable steps to ensure the safety of the victims of reported child abuse, both during and after such investigations;
FORBIDS the transport of children to a country not covered by this resolution for the purpose of contravening the articles of this resolution;


See that? Right there, it defines child abuse as the deprivation of healhcare. Then it requires Member-States to investigate these crimes.

Such investigation is prohibited in this resolution by this clause, specifically the bolded section:

SECTION 5: Prohibits member nations from prosecuting citizens who seek medical treatments or operations abroad that are illegal or banned within their own borders but that have not been banned by the General Assembly, and requires that individuals who obtain such treatment be accepted back into their home nation without prejudice or any legal repercussions based on their medical treatment.‎


If you remembered, Resolution 222 also required Member-States to ensure the safety of the victims during and after such allegations, which is prohibited by -guess what clause- in this legislation:

SECTION 5: Prohibits member nations from prosecuting citizens who seek medical treatments or operations abroad that are illegal or banned within their own borders but that have not been banned by the General Assembly, and requires that individuals who obtain such treatment be accepted back into their home nation without prejudice or any legal repercussions based on their medical treatment.‎


And after that, Resolution 222 forbids Member-States from allowing the transport of children for the purpose getting around the mandates on child abuse. Which is prohibited by this clause from the Resolution:

SECTION 1: Prohibits member nations from denying or restricting citizens and their dependents from seeking healthcare in other nations at their own expense, so long as the individuals are not medically quarantined, incarcerated, or subjects of a criminal trial.


Is it fucking clear yet?
Last edited by Tinfect on Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aclion
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Ex-Nation

Postby Aclion » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:09 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Aclion wrote:Anyway this entire conversion is one of rules violations so necessarily OOC.

OOC: It just helps if you put the OOC tag into your posts, since you can quite easily talk about most rules issues in IC, like I did with PPU.

As for your question about the traveling rights, I'm fairly sure you know exactly what I meant. You alledged that the proposal was about medical procedures. Where exactly does it legislate on the medical procedures themselves? More than half of the active clauses are about nations being prohibited from disallowing people to travel to seek medical care.

Clause 5 is the only one that even remotely mentions the procedures or treatments performed or being performed, and that's 1 in 7 (or about 14%) active clauses. Whereas 4 out of 7 (57%) of the active clauses concern people traveling, and the rest 2 out of 7 (about 29%) are about patients rights (which is basically just repeating existing legislation) and finances.

Thus, the proposal is about traveling rights.

OOC: What? No.
Clause one establishes patients right to seek healthcare in other nations.
Two urges nations to expedite legal processes for medical patients.
Three prohibits discriminating against people for traveling to seek medical treatment
Four is fluff, but deals with patients, not travel.
Five prohibits prosecution of people who seek medical care abroad, or refusing reentry to those who have done so.
Six clarifies that the patient's home nation is under no financial obligation for expenses related to transport or medical treatment
Seven clarifies that nations are under no obligation to accept foreignmedical patients.

Every clause related to travel is contingent on that travel being for the purpose of seeking medical care or the person doing the traveling being a patient(A person receiving medical care).

Tinfect wrote:Snip

OOC: The prohibition in clause five only applies to "citizens who seek medical treatments or operations abroad that are illegal or banned within their own borders but that have not been banned by the General Assembly" Child abuse has been banned by the General Assembly(under #222). As such section five does not apply to child abuse. I'll leave aside the disturbing implication that child abuse is a form of medical treatment and tha laughable claim that seeking medical care for a child deprives that child of medical care.
Last edited by Aclion on Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. - James Madison.

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Tinfect
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Tinfect » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:16 pm

Aclion wrote:The prohibition in clause five only applies to "citizens who seek medical treatments or operations abroad that are illegal or banned within their own borders but that have not been banned by the General Assembly" Child abuse has been banned by the General Assembly(under #222). As such section five does not apply to child abuse. I'll leave aside the disturbing implication that child abuse is a form of medical treatment and tha laughable claim that seeking medical care for a child deprives that child of medical care.


OOC:
This argument only holds if you're trying to claim that waving crystals about counts as medical treatment, or that child abuse counts as medical treatment. It's the crux of your damned argument, you can't fucking 'leave it aside'. If you don't buy it yourself, then you shouldn't be making this argument.
Last edited by Tinfect on Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:37 pm

Tinfect wrote:
Aclion wrote:The prohibition in clause five only applies to "citizens who seek medical treatments or operations abroad that are illegal or banned within their own borders but that have not been banned by the General Assembly" Child abuse has been banned by the General Assembly(under #222). As such section five does not apply to child abuse. I'll leave aside the disturbing implication that child abuse is a form of medical treatment and tha laughable claim that seeking medical care for a child deprives that child of medical care.


OOC:
This argument only holds if you're trying to claim that waving crystals about counts as medical treatment, or that child abuse counts as medical treatment. It's the crux of your damned argument, you can't fucking 'leave it aside'. If you don't buy it yourself, then you shouldn't be making this argument.

OOC: Quite the opposite, if "waving crystals about" doesn't count as medical treatment then they aren't seeking medical treatment and section 5, which deals with people seeking medical treatment does not apply. You're the one who's arguing leaching is medical treatment, as it must be for those seeking it to be covered under section 5. This is your petard.

But none of that matters, because child abuse cannot be both legal and banned by the WA. And your objection requires it to be both.
Last edited by Aclion on Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. - James Madison.

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Araraukar
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:14 am

OOC post.
Aclion wrote:OOC: What? No.
Clause one establishes patients right to seek healthcare in other nations. Which by necessity involves traveling.
Two urges nations to expedite legal processes for medical patients for travel.
Three prohibits discriminating against people for traveling to seek medical treatment
Four is fluff, but deals with patients, not travel. Which I mentioned quite clearly.
Five prohibits prosecution of people who seek medical care abroad, or refusing reentry to those who have done so. And like I said, I'm fine with counting this one in as one that actually talks about treatment.
Six clarifies that the patient's home nation is under no financial obligation for expenses related to transport or medical treatment
Seven clarifies that nations are under no obligation to accept foreignmedical patients. And contradicts clauses 1-3.

My comments. Relevant highlights. One highlight was added into the sentence to make it conform to the actual proposal text.

Every clause related to travel is contingent on that travel being for the purpose of seeking medical care or the person doing the traveling being a patient(A person receiving medical care).

Exactly. Not medical treatment or procedures like you claimed.

OOC: The prohibition in clause five only applies to "citizens who seek medical treatments or operations abroad that are illegal or banned within their own borders but that have not been banned by the General Assembly" Child abuse has been banned by the General Assembly(under #222).

Ineffective medical treatments have not. Then it all comes down to what someone believes will cure them. Especially since patients are allowed to refuse treatment (as long as other people's health isn't endangered), as per GA #29.

As such section five does not apply to child abuse.

Not how contradiction works. If you're trying to allow something that WA has banned (in this case depriving the child of proper medical treatment because, say, the parents don't believe in vaccines and thus the cure for the completely preventable Purpletine Plague doesn't exist in their home nation, and the parents believe - let's say because of religious reasons - that the head honcho of their religion placing their hands on the child's head and saying some words will be the proper cure for the disease), you don't get away from being contradictory just by saying "oh, but this doesn't apply to that resolution", while the proposal text clearly disagrees with you.

I'll leave aside the disturbing implication that child abuse is a form of medical treatment and tha laughable claim that seeking medical care for a child deprives that child of medical care.

Faith healing exists in Real Life, which pretty much means it will exist in NS RP as well. And in most cases (not counting actual magical nations) it's going to be just as "effective". This is why words like "effective" need to actually be written into this proposal. PRA gives parents way too much leeway with the current wording, and clause 5 stops member nations from prosecuting them according to existing resolutions.

Aclion wrote:But none of that matters, because child abuse cannot be both legal and banned by the WA. And your objection requires it to be both.

And hence the need to change the clauses of this proposal. Although there's also that same legal-and-banned contradiction within the proposal.

Look, Aclion, I don't know why you're so invested in arguing this, when everything Tinfect and I have pointed out would be easily remedied with some changes of wording. We're not seeking to prevent this from ever going through. We're trying to help with the legality issues the author asked help with, as well as trying to help them improve the text so that it 1) makes sense, 2) makes for a good resolution and 3) becomes difficult to repeal, if or once it passes.

Of course, if the author's just a badge-hunter, then 2) and 3) don't matter and they should have the decency to let us know so we can collectively stop trying to help them.
Last edited by Araraukar on Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
- ambassador miss Janis Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:05 am

Araraukar wrote:snip

If you have a change in wording that would address the legality issues you see then suggest it. But your current suggestion guts the proposal, as I belive is the intent. It allows nations to ban their citizens seeking care outside their nations healthcare systems by making it illegal to practice medicine without a license from your government and then only granting those licenses within your jurisdiction.

And jesus christ dude, even if travel is mentioned it is still all contingent on medical treatment. Put that goalpost back where you found it. Do you even remember what this argument is about? It's not about how many times the word travel comes up. That doesn't matter. It's about whether people traveling for non-medical reasons(such as to undergo a religious ceremony like faith healing) are granted any rights under this proposal. Your argument is a red herring of a red herring.
Last edited by Aclion on Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
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New Waldensia
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Postby New Waldensia » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:02 am

Tinfect wrote:That's pretty straightforward; if effective treatment is not reasonably accessible to the individual seeking it within their nation.

OOC: respectfully, I'm not going to put such language in the resolution, as it would serve to effectively get the intent of resolution.

RL example. Let's say Bob has a medical condition, and lives in Seattle, Washington. His local hospital can treat it, but has a history of subpar results and care. The best facility in the US is in Miami, Florida, but across the border in Vancouver, British Columbia, is a top-tier facility that ranks among the best in the world for his condition.
You would force him to use his local hospital or Miami before he could drive the short distance to Vancouver and receive better care.

I'll try to work on the draft today when I get a break from work. Perhaps I can include something about the care being sought needing to meet WA-approved standards or some such (need to go back through the engrossed healthcare resolutions again).
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Greater Gilead
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Postby Greater Gilead » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:32 am

(Ambassador Sheridan Baldwin stands.)
This resolution would allow people to have any operation that has not been made illegal by this Assembly, but is illegal in your nation, simply by traveling to another nation that does allow it. For example, if your nation has banned some operation such as circumcision, or tattoos, as two examples, this resolution will provide the loophole that your citizens need to bypass the law banning it.
(Mr. Baldwin sits.)
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:08 am

Greater Gilead wrote:(Ambassador Sheridan Baldwin stands.)
This resolution would allow people to have any operation that has not been made illegal by this Assembly, but is illegal in your nation, simply by traveling to another nation that does allow it. For example, if your nation has banned some operation such as circumcision, or tattoos, as two examples, this resolution will provide the loophole that your citizens need to bypass the law banning it.
(Mr. Baldwin sits.)

Adrianne - "Your nation is already required to allow circumcision and tattoos are not a form of medical trea- really? You're drinking already?"
Celice - "Shut up, you just got here."
A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. - James Madison.

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New Waldensia
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Postby New Waldensia » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:39 am

Made quite a few changes here, trying to work with y'all and alleviate concerns.

Freedom to Seek Care
Category: Human Rights
Strength: Mild

Believing that individuals possess an inalienable right to seek medical care of their own accord and at their own expense, above and beyond that which may be provided for them by their government or by their nation's laws,‎

Understanding that medical treatment is a complex issue and requires great care, and that health-care needs can be difficult to adequately treat without the proper resources, technology, training and expertise,

Aware that many nations do not have said resources and training available in their medical facilities, and that many rare diseases and disorders occur in such limited instances that some nations have little or no experience treating them,

Concerned that some nations may be harming their citizens by mandating that they be medically treated within their own borders, when better treatment may be obtained elsewhere,


The General Assembly:

SECTION 1: Prohibits member nations from denying or restricting their citizens and their dependents from seeking healthcare in other nations at their own expense, so long as the individuals are not medically quarantined, incarcerated, or subjects of a criminal trial.

SECTION 2: Urges member nations on both ends of the travel to expedite their legal processes for travel to medical patients, and in the case of dependents their guardians or caretakers as well, or to those who urgently request and demonstrate a need for medical care abroad.

SECTION 3: ProhibitsAffirms the ability of member nations from discriminating in their travel policies against non-citizens solely for traveling to seek medical treatment, with the exception that nations mayto set their own policies and restrictions regarding the acceptance of foreign patients, particularly those with infectious diseases.

SECTION 4: Urges member nations to respect the rights of all patients and their legal representatives.

SECTION 5: Prohibits member nations from prosecuting citizens who seek medical treatments or operations abroad that are restricted,
illegal or banned within their own borders but that have not been banned by the General Assembly, and requires that individuals who obtain such treatment be accepted back into their home nation without prejudice or any legal repercussions based on their medical treatment.‎

SECTION 6: Declares that the government of the patient's nation of origin is not obligated or financially responsible in any way for transport or medical treatment sought abroad, and that such arrangements must be made by and financed by the person(s) seeking treatment, or by their legal guardians or representation.‎

SECTION 7: Clarifies that no nation is required to accept foreign medical patients under this measure, and that foreign medical patients can be turned away for other reasons.

Co-authored by United Massachusetts
IC WA Diplomat Josiah Garrett
Author of GA #414 (Freedom to Seek Medical Care) and GA #456 (Freedom to Seek Medical Care II)

Army of Freedom medals received:
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Araraukar
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Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:11 am

Aclion wrote:If you have a change in wording that would address the legality issues you see then suggest it.

OOC: Why bother? The author would ignore it anyway, like he just ignored every bit of advice given and deleted clause 7 instead of realizing that he just made his proposal an easier target that way.

But your current suggestion guts the proposal, as I belive is the intent.

Your beliefs are not my problem. If I really believed that the effort was worth the time it would take, I'd rewrite the proposal for the author.

It allows nations to ban their citizens seeking care outside their nations healthcare systems by making it illegal to practice medicine without a license from your government and then only granting those licenses within your jurisdiction.

And where exactly in anything either Tinfect or I have said, are licences mentioned?

even if travel is mentioned it is still all contingent on medical treatment.

No, it's contingent on seeking medical treatment. Nothing in the proposal says - nor should it say - that a nation has to provide that treatment the individual seeks. And all the prohibitions are prohibiting nations from restricting the travellers and not getting mad at them for travelling. That the travelling is done for reason X does not matter as long as reason X isn't actually defined (hence, again, words like "effective" should be included) in the proposal. And no, I'm not necessarily suggesting it needs an actual definition, but that would help a lot!

It's about whether people traveling for non-medical reasons(such as to undergo a religious ceremony like faith healing) are granted any rights under this proposal.

But for anyone who believes that faith healing is a medical treatment and thus a medical reason to travel, this proposal could do exactly what?

New Waldensia wrote:OOC: RL example. Let's say Bob has a medical condition, and lives in Seattle, Washington. His local hospital can treat it, but has a history of subpar results and care. The best facility in the US is in Miami, Florida, but across the border in Vancouver, British Columbia, is a top-tier facility that ranks among the best in the world for his condition.

OOC: Which in this case would, to my knowledge, be off-limits since Canada doesn't allow medical tourism? In any case the words "available", "effective" and, if you want to put it in addition to effective, "good quality", would easily correct the issue. You might want to really consider adding definitions.

You would force him to use his local hospital or Miami before he could drive the short distance to Vancouver and receive better care.

You do realize that even for a USA citizen traveling to Canada, there are restrictions and that you can be turned away from the border for a variety of reasons? That's because they're actually two separate nations with actually different laws. Your proposal, with the new wording, would make Canada unable to turn Bob away unless he was infectious - a word that itself will be a problem, just ask the quarantine resolution author - or fit the exceptions list in clause 1.

Considering you went exactly the wrong way with the new version (deleting clause 7 rather than making it the important one), I'm not exactly sure if I should continue trying to help you, and instead just save all the problems I find for a new legality challenge for when this eventually gets submitted...

Although, in the name of a goodwill effort, one more thing you should consider; making this apply only to medically necessary treatments.

Also, if you don't believe deleting clause 7 is a problem, I'll be happy to share all the TGs and forum comments from CK's and my attempt to force nations to provide emergency care to foreigners with the option of forcing the person or their nation cough up the money afterwards.

Oh, and your clause 6 still doesn't do what you and Aclion seem to believe it does. See my post on PPU on it.
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New Waldensia
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Ex-Nation

Postby New Waldensia » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:42 am

Araraukar wrote:OOC: Which in this case would, to my knowledge, be off-limits since Canada doesn't allow medical tourism?
[...]
You do realize that even for a USA citizen traveling to Canada, there are restrictions and that you can be turned away from the border for a variety of reasons? That's because they're actually two separate nations with actually different laws.


Are you being difficult just to be difficult? My point was in a large nation, your thought would be to force them to travel to the other end of the country before they could go a much shorter distance to a foreign nation for treatment.

Araraukar wrote:Considering you went exactly the wrong way with the new version (deleting clause 7 rather than making it the important one), I'm not exactly sure if I should continue trying to help you, and instead just save all the problems I find for a new legality challenge for when this eventually gets submitted...


I amended clause 3 to essentially replace 7, which was a section you and others have repeatedly said was a problem point. No other section mandates anything for the "receiving" nation. But I can put 7 back in.

Araraukar wrote:Although, in the name of a goodwill effort, one more thing you should consider; making this apply only to medically necessary treatments.


I can go with that.
IC WA Diplomat Josiah Garrett
Author of GA #414 (Freedom to Seek Medical Care) and GA #456 (Freedom to Seek Medical Care II)

Army of Freedom medals received:
N-Day² Medals -- N-Day³ Medals -- N-Day⁴ Medals
Z-Day6 Medals

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Araraukar
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Posts: 15899
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:55 am

New Waldensia wrote:Are you being difficult just to be difficult? My point was in a large nation, your thought would be to force them to travel to the other end of the country before they could go a much shorter distance to a foreign nation for treatment.

OOC: I assume that was OOC as you responded to my OOC post. In any case, your argument was that traveling as a medical tourist to another nation would be easier than traveling domestically. Sure, the distance might be shorter, but my point was to illustrate that it's not necessarily easier.

No other section mandates anything for the "receiving" nation.

Which is part of the problem, especially with clause 6.

But I can put 7 back in.

In that case would you be willing to at least give serious consideration to a complete rewrite to fix several issues? I don't have time tonight (almost 10 pm here), but I can have a go at it tomorrow, if you'd like. I believe that this proposal has the right idea, but approaches it the wrong way.
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Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.

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Deropia
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Posts: 245
Founded: Apr 08, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Deropia » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:04 pm

New Waldensia wrote:RL example. Let's say Bob has a medical condition, and lives in Seattle, Washington. His local hospital can treat it, but has a history of subpar results and care. The best facility in the US is in Miami, Florida, but across the border in Vancouver, British Columbia, is a top-tier facility that ranks among the best in the world for his condition.
You would force him to use his local hospital or Miami before he could drive the short distance to Vancouver and receive better care.

OOC: While we do accept foreign medical patients in Canada, someone seeking treatment in Canada must apply through Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship Canada and their application can be denied by the immigration officer if an applicant has a medical condition that could pose a danger to the public health or safety of Canadian residents OR the immigration officer makes a determination that excessive demands on health and social services have not been mitigated by examining factors such as proof of arrangements with the institution in which the treatment will take place, means to cover the cost of treatment and related expenses during the time spent in Canada and proof that medical and other costs have been prepaid. Patients also should be referred by a physician associated with a Canadian institution that provides the treatment sought. Usually admissions are only made if treatment is unavailable in the applicants home country. If someone requires emergency medical treatment while on vacation, I believe they receive treatment to make them well enough to safely travel. Basically, you can't just show up in Canada and say 'I'm sick! I need treatment!' since that will get you turned away at the border or point of entry by customs officials.
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New Waldensia
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Founded: Feb 18, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby New Waldensia » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:06 pm

Potted Plants United wrote:"First of all, I really would advice against using "section" for "clause" in a medically-related proposal, due to its surgical meaning. Calling your clauses incisions is perhaps not the best way to ensure people will respond to them positively.


OOC: I...... don't follow your meaning.

Potted Plants United wrote:In fact, clauses 1 and 3 are in direct contradiction with clause 7.


I fail to see how 1 and 7 contradict each other. Section 1 addresses the home nation of the patient, while section 7 addresses foreign nations. The two have completely different subjects.

Potted Plants United wrote:Which also reminds me that nowhere do you mention anything about transport.


Section 6 addresses this: "[...] [transport or medical treatment] arrangements must be made by and financed by the person(s) seeking treatment, or by their legal guardians or representation.‎"

Potted Plants United wrote:Clause 4 should be mandatory to be in line with previously passed legislation.


I can make it "mandates", but I felt since it was general (and not specific) "urge" would be more appropriate.

Potted Plants United wrote:Also, you should refer to the World Assembly doing the banning, not the General Assembly. The General Assembly is merely the legislative branch of the World Assembly, a function that, though it can potentially affect all the member nations, is still fairly small compared to what all the committees and of course the member nations themselves do every day.


Point well taken.

Potted Plants United wrote:Clause 6 has potential to prove confusing as you mention "nation of origin" as the only one not responsible for financing the medical tourism. I hope the author is aware that not all WA citizens reside in their nation of origin, but are in fact "legal aliens" in another member nation. Which nation should be free of the financing in such a case? And also, if the whole idea of the proposal is that the medical tourist would finance all their expenses - travel and medical care - then certainly also the nation where they travel to should not be held financially responsible for them!


Point well taken.

Potted Plants United wrote:Clause 7 should be made clause 1, and the subsequent clauses should include the modifier for the exclusion granted in it."


They can certainly be re-arranged before finalizing of the language.
IC WA Diplomat Josiah Garrett
Author of GA #414 (Freedom to Seek Medical Care) and GA #456 (Freedom to Seek Medical Care II)

Army of Freedom medals received:
N-Day² Medals -- N-Day³ Medals -- N-Day⁴ Medals
Z-Day6 Medals

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New Waldensia
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Founded: Feb 18, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby New Waldensia » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:09 pm

Deropia wrote:OOC: While we do accept foreign medical patients in Canada, someone seeking treatment in Canada must apply through Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship Canada and their application can be denied by the immigration officer if an applicant has a medical condition that could pose a danger to the public health or safety of Canadian residents OR the immigration officer makes a determination that excessive demands on health and social services have not been mitigated by examining factors such as proof of arrangements with the institution in which the treatment will take place, means to cover the cost of treatment and related expenses during the time spent in Canada and proof that medical and other costs have been prepaid. Patients also should be referred by a physician associated with a Canadian institution that provides the treatment sought. Usually admissions are only made if treatment is unavailable in the applicants home country. If someone requires emergency medical treatment while on vacation, I believe they receive treatment to make them well enough to safely travel. Basically, you can't just show up in Canada and say 'I'm sick! I need treatment!' since that will get you turned away at the border or point of entry by customs officials.


OOC: I absolutely understand that. My mistake for nation just saying Nation A and Nation B. I was meaning there might be cases where it is easier to seek treatment or an operation in a foreign country than it is to get it in ones own nation (i.e. travelling to the opposite end of the country, etc).
IC WA Diplomat Josiah Garrett
Author of GA #414 (Freedom to Seek Medical Care) and GA #456 (Freedom to Seek Medical Care II)

Army of Freedom medals received:
N-Day² Medals -- N-Day³ Medals -- N-Day⁴ Medals
Z-Day6 Medals

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Tinfect
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Posts: 5235
Founded: Jul 04, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tinfect » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:17 pm

New Waldensia wrote:SECTION 4: Urges member nations to respect the rights of all patients and their legal representatives.


OOC:
This clause is still optional, I honestly cannot imagine why you are so dead-set on making one of the most inoffensive and reasonable clauses in your proposal optional.

[
New Waldensia wrote:SECTION 7: Clarifies that no nation is required to accept foreign medical patients under this measure, and that foreign medical patients can be turned away for other reasons.


There was no reason to remove this clause.

In any case, none of these modifications do anything whatsoever to address the points I've raised.

Aclion wrote:If you have a change in wording that would address the legality issues you see then suggest it.


Alright, fine:
[quote]Freedom to Seek Care
Category: Human Rights
Strength: Mild

Understanding that medical treatment is a complex issue and requires great care, and that health-care needs can be difficult to adequately treat without the proper resources, technology, training and expertise,

Aware that many nations do not have said resources and training available in their medical facilities, and that many rare diseases and disorders occur in such limited instances that some nations have little or no experience treating them,

Concerned that some nations may be harming their citizens by mandating that they be medically treated within their own borders, when better treatment may be obtained elsewhere,

The General Assembly:

SECTION 1: Prohibits member nations from denying or restricting their citizens and dependents from seeking healthcare in other nations at their own expense, so long as the individuals are not currently detained for medical or legal reasons, in addition to any restrictions imposed by standing legislation,

SECTION 2: Affirms the ability of member nations to set their own policies and restrictions regarding the acceptance of foreign patients, including refusal to accept foreign patients,

SECTION 3: Requires member nations to respect the rights of all patients and their legal representatives.

SECTION 4: Prohibits member nations from taking legal action against citizens or dependents who seek medical treatments or operations abroad, subject to standing legislation,

SECTION 5: Declares that the government of the patient's nation of origin is not obligated or financially responsible in any way for transport or medical treatment sought abroad, and that such arrangements may be made by and financed by the person(s) seeking treatment, or by their legal guardians or representation.‎


I'm sure there's holes in it somewhere, but fuck it, I can't do all your work for you.
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New Waldensia
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Founded: Feb 18, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby New Waldensia » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:20 pm

Work in progress.

Freedom to Seek Care
Category: Human Rights
Strength: Mild

Believing that individuals possess an inalienable right to seek medical care of their own accord and at their own expense, above and beyond that which may be provided for them by their government or by their nation's laws,‎

Understanding that medical treatment is a complex issue and requires great care, and that health-care needs can be difficult to adequately treat without the proper resources, technology, training and expertise,

Aware that many nations do not have said resources and training available in their medical facilities, and that many rare diseases and disorders occur in such limited instances that some nations have little or no experience treating them,

Concerned that some nations may be harming their citizens by mandating that they be medically treated within their own borders, when better treatment may be obtained elsewhere,


The General Assembly:

SECTION 1: Prohibits member nations from denying or restricting their citizens and their dependents permanent residents from seeking medically necessary healthcare in other nations at their own expense, so long as the individuals are not medically quarantined, incarcerated, or subjects of a criminal trial.

SECTION 2: Urges member nations on both ends of the travel to expedite their legal processes for travel to medical patients, and in the case of dependents their guardians or caretakers as well, or to those who urgently request and demonstrate a need for medical care abroad.

SECTION 3: Prohibits member nations from discriminating in their travel policies against non-citizens solely for traveling to seek medical treatment, with the exception that nations may set their own policies and restrictions regarding the acceptance of patients with infectious diseases. Affirms the ability of member nations to set their own policies and restrictions regarding the acceptance of non-resident patients, particularly those with communicable diseases.

SECTION 4: Requires member nations to respect the rights of all patients and their legal representatives.

SECTION 5: Prohibits member nations from prosecuting citizens who seek medical treatments or operations abroad that are restricted,
illegal or banned within their own borders but that have not been banned by the General World Assembly, and requires that individuals who obtain such treatment be accepted back into their home nation without prejudice or any legal repercussions based on their medical treatment.‎

SECTION 6: Declares that the government of the patient's nation of origin is not obligated or financially responsible in any way for transport or medical treatment sought abroad, and that such arrangements must be made by and financed by the person(s) seeking treatment, or by their legal guardians or representation.‎ Declares that patients seeking to travel to a foreign nation for the purpose of obtaining medical care or treatment are financially responsible for transport or medical treatment sought abroad, and that such arrangements must be made by and financed by the person(s) seeking treatment, or by their legal guardians or representation.‎

SECTION 7: Clarifies that no nation is required to accept provide medical care to foreign medical patients under this measure, and that foreign medical patients can be turned away for other reasons.

Co-authored by United Massachusetts
IC WA Diplomat Josiah Garrett
Author of GA #414 (Freedom to Seek Medical Care) and GA #456 (Freedom to Seek Medical Care II)

Army of Freedom medals received:
N-Day² Medals -- N-Day³ Medals -- N-Day⁴ Medals
Z-Day6 Medals

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