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by Potted Plants United » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:29 pm
Separatist Peoples wrote:"NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPE!"
- Mr. Bell, when introduced to PPU's newest moving plant
by Aclion » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:43 pm
by Araraukar » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:47 pm
Aclion wrote:Which is the subject of this proposal. Does this draft grant any travel rights not specific to those seeking medical treatment?
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Aclion » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:55 pm
by Araraukar » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:11 pm
Aclion wrote:Good, then you can quote a part of this resolution that grants a right to travel to persons not seeking medical treatment.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Aclion » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:16 pm
by Araraukar » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:26 pm
Aclion wrote:Anyway this entire conversion is one of rules violations so necessarily OOC.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Tinfect » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:40 pm
Aclion wrote:Anyway this entire conversion is one of rules violations so necessarily OOC.
SECTION 5: Prohibits member nations from prosecuting citizens who seek medical treatments or operations abroad that are illegal or banned within their own borders but that have not been banned by the General Assembly, and requires that individuals who obtain such treatment be accepted back into their home nation without prejudice or any legal repercussions based on their medical treatment.
DEFINES the following for the purpose of this resolution:
[...]
Child abuse as any and/or all of the following:
[...]
iv. when a guardian deprives, intentionally or otherwise, a child of necessities such as care, nourishment, shelter, and/or healthcare on a long term or continuous basis, if that guardian is capable of providing such;
[...]
MANDATES that all acts of child abuse be criminalised
REQUIRES nations to investigate fully, and to the best of their ability, all reports of child abuse;
REQUIRES nations take all reasonable steps to ensure the safety of the victims of reported child abuse, both during and after such investigations;
FORBIDS the transport of children to a country not covered by this resolution for the purpose of contravening the articles of this resolution;
SECTION 5: Prohibits member nations from prosecuting citizens who seek medical treatments or operations abroad that are illegal or banned within their own borders but that have not been banned by the General Assembly, and requires that individuals who obtain such treatment be accepted back into their home nation without prejudice or any legal repercussions based on their medical treatment.
SECTION 5: Prohibits member nations from prosecuting citizens who seek medical treatments or operations abroad that are illegal or banned within their own borders but that have not been banned by the General Assembly, and requires that individuals who obtain such treatment be accepted back into their home nation without prejudice or any legal repercussions based on their medical treatment.
SECTION 1: Prohibits member nations from denying or restricting citizens and their dependents from seeking healthcare in other nations at their own expense, so long as the individuals are not medically quarantined, incarcerated, or subjects of a criminal trial.
Imperium Central News Network: EMERGENCY ALERT: ALL CITIZENS ARE TO PROCEED TO EVACUATION SITES IMMEDIATELY | EMERGENCY ALERT: ALL FURTHER SUBSPACE SIGNALS AND SYSTEMS ARE TO BE DISABLED IMMEDIATELY | EMERGENCY ALERT: THE FOLLOWING SYSTEMS ARE ACCESS PROHIBITED BY STANDARD/BLACKOUT [Error: Format Unrecognized] | Indomitable Bastard #283
by Aclion » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:09 pm
Araraukar wrote:Aclion wrote:Anyway this entire conversion is one of rules violations so necessarily OOC.
OOC: It just helps if you put the OOC tag into your posts, since you can quite easily talk about most rules issues in IC, like I did with PPU.
As for your question about the traveling rights, I'm fairly sure you know exactly what I meant. You alledged that the proposal was about medical procedures. Where exactly does it legislate on the medical procedures themselves? More than half of the active clauses are about nations being prohibited from disallowing people to travel to seek medical care.
Clause 5 is the only one that even remotely mentions the procedures or treatments performed or being performed, and that's 1 in 7 (or about 14%) active clauses. Whereas 4 out of 7 (57%) of the active clauses concern people traveling, and the rest 2 out of 7 (about 29%) are about patients rights (which is basically just repeating existing legislation) and finances.
Thus, the proposal is about traveling rights.
Tinfect wrote:Snip
by Tinfect » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:16 pm
Aclion wrote:The prohibition in clause five only applies to "citizens who seek medical treatments or operations abroad that are illegal or banned within their own borders but that have not been banned by the General Assembly" Child abuse has been banned by the General Assembly(under #222). As such section five does not apply to child abuse. I'll leave aside the disturbing implication that child abuse is a form of medical treatment and tha laughable claim that seeking medical care for a child deprives that child of medical care.
Imperium Central News Network: EMERGENCY ALERT: ALL CITIZENS ARE TO PROCEED TO EVACUATION SITES IMMEDIATELY | EMERGENCY ALERT: ALL FURTHER SUBSPACE SIGNALS AND SYSTEMS ARE TO BE DISABLED IMMEDIATELY | EMERGENCY ALERT: THE FOLLOWING SYSTEMS ARE ACCESS PROHIBITED BY STANDARD/BLACKOUT [Error: Format Unrecognized] | Indomitable Bastard #283
by Aclion » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:37 pm
Tinfect wrote:Aclion wrote:The prohibition in clause five only applies to "citizens who seek medical treatments or operations abroad that are illegal or banned within their own borders but that have not been banned by the General Assembly" Child abuse has been banned by the General Assembly(under #222). As such section five does not apply to child abuse. I'll leave aside the disturbing implication that child abuse is a form of medical treatment and tha laughable claim that seeking medical care for a child deprives that child of medical care.
OOC:
This argument only holds if you're trying to claim that waving crystals about counts as medical treatment, or that child abuse counts as medical treatment. It's the crux of your damned argument, you can't fucking 'leave it aside'. If you don't buy it yourself, then you shouldn't be making this argument.
by Araraukar » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:14 am
Aclion wrote:OOC: What? No.
Clause one establishes patients right to seek healthcare in other nations. Which by necessity involves traveling.
Two urges nations to expedite legal processes for medical patients for travel.
Three prohibits discriminating against people for traveling to seek medical treatment
Four is fluff, but deals with patients, not travel. Which I mentioned quite clearly.
Five prohibits prosecution of people who seek medical care abroad, or refusing reentry to those who have done so. And like I said, I'm fine with counting this one in as one that actually talks about treatment.
Six clarifies that the patient's home nation is under no financial obligation for expenses related to transport or medical treatment
Seven clarifies that nations are under no obligation to accept foreignmedical patients. And contradicts clauses 1-3.
Every clause related to travel is contingent on that travel being for the purpose of seeking medical care or the person doing the traveling being a patient(A person receiving medical care).
OOC: The prohibition in clause five only applies to "citizens who seek medical treatments or operations abroad that are illegal or banned within their own borders but that have not been banned by the General Assembly" Child abuse has been banned by the General Assembly(under #222).
As such section five does not apply to child abuse.
I'll leave aside the disturbing implication that child abuse is a form of medical treatment and tha laughable claim that seeking medical care for a child deprives that child of medical care.
Aclion wrote:But none of that matters, because child abuse cannot be both legal and banned by the WA. And your objection requires it to be both.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Aclion » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:05 am
Araraukar wrote:snip
by New Waldensia » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:02 am
Tinfect wrote:That's pretty straightforward; if effective treatment is not reasonably accessible to the individual seeking it within their nation.
Army of Freedom medals received:
• N-Day² Medals -- N-Day³ Medals -- N-Day⁴ Medals
• Z-Day6 Medals
by Greater Gilead » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:32 am
Deropia wrote:Jason can't help but laugh as the scotch bottle, followed soon after by the pie, fly through the air of the chamber. "Ah, this place may be a mad-house...but its the best damn posting I've ever had...".
The Bible Baptist Republic wrote:Ambassador Conklin reads the proposal, blinks twice, and mutters "There ain't enough whiskey to deal with this crap."
by Aclion » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:08 am
Greater Gilead wrote:(Ambassador Sheridan Baldwin stands.)
This resolution would allow people to have any operation that has not been made illegal by this Assembly, but is illegal in your nation, simply by traveling to another nation that does allow it. For example, if your nation has banned some operation such as circumcision, or tattoos, as two examples, this resolution will provide the loophole that your citizens need to bypass the law banning it.
(Mr. Baldwin sits.)
by New Waldensia » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:39 am
Freedom to Seek Care
Category: Human Rights
Strength: MildBelieving that individuals possess an inalienable right to seek medical care of their own accord and at their own expense, above and beyond that which may be provided for them by their government or by their nation's laws,
Understanding that medical treatment is a complex issue and requires great care, and that health-care needs can be difficult to adequately treat without the proper resources, technology, training and expertise,
Aware that many nations do not have said resources and training available in their medical facilities, and that many rare diseases and disorders occur in such limited instances that some nations have little or no experience treating them,
Concerned that some nations may be harming their citizens by mandating that they be medically treated within their own borders, when better treatment may be obtained elsewhere,
The General Assembly:
SECTION 1: Prohibits member nations from denying or restricting their citizens andtheirdependents from seeking healthcare in other nations at their own expense, so long as the individuals are not medically quarantined, incarcerated, or subjects of a criminal trial.
SECTION 2: Urges member nations on both ends of the travel to expedite their legal processes for travel to medical patients, and in the case of dependents their guardians or caretakers as well, or to those who urgently request and demonstrate a need for medical care abroad.
SECTION 3:ProhibitsAffirms the ability of member nationsfrom discriminating in their travel policies against non-citizens solely for traveling to seek medical treatment, with the exception that nations mayto set their own policies and restrictions regarding the acceptance of foreign patients, particularly those with infectious diseases.
SECTION 4: Urges member nations to respect the rights of all patients and their legal representatives.
SECTION 5: Prohibits member nations from prosecuting citizens who seek medical treatments or operations abroad that are restricted,
illegalor banned within their own borders but that have not been banned by the General Assembly, and requires that individuals who obtain such treatment be accepted back into their home nation without prejudice or any legal repercussions based on their medical treatment.
SECTION 6: Declares that the government of the patient's nation of origin is not obligated or financially responsible in any way for transport or medical treatment sought abroad, and that such arrangements must be made by and financed by the person(s) seeking treatment, or by their legal guardians or representation.SECTION 7: Clarifies that no nation is required to accept foreign medical patients under this measure, and that foreign medical patients can be turned away for other reasons.
Co-authored by United Massachusetts
Army of Freedom medals received:
• N-Day² Medals -- N-Day³ Medals -- N-Day⁴ Medals
• Z-Day6 Medals
by Araraukar » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:11 am
Aclion wrote:If you have a change in wording that would address the legality issues you see then suggest it.
But your current suggestion guts the proposal, as I belive is the intent.
It allows nations to ban their citizens seeking care outside their nations healthcare systems by making it illegal to practice medicine without a license from your government and then only granting those licenses within your jurisdiction.
even if travel is mentioned it is still all contingent on medical treatment.
It's about whether people traveling for non-medical reasons(such as to undergo a religious ceremony like faith healing) are granted any rights under this proposal.
New Waldensia wrote:OOC: RL example. Let's say Bob has a medical condition, and lives in Seattle, Washington. His local hospital can treat it, but has a history of subpar results and care. The best facility in the US is in Miami, Florida, but across the border in Vancouver, British Columbia, is a top-tier facility that ranks among the best in the world for his condition.
You would force him to use his local hospital or Miami before he could drive the short distance to Vancouver and receive better care.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by New Waldensia » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:42 am
Araraukar wrote:OOC: Which in this case would, to my knowledge, be off-limits since Canada doesn't allow medical tourism?
[...]
You do realize that even for a USA citizen traveling to Canada, there are restrictions and that you can be turned away from the border for a variety of reasons? That's because they're actually two separate nations with actually different laws.
Araraukar wrote:Considering you went exactly the wrong way with the new version (deleting clause 7 rather than making it the important one), I'm not exactly sure if I should continue trying to help you, and instead just save all the problems I find for a new legality challenge for when this eventually gets submitted...
Araraukar wrote:Although, in the name of a goodwill effort, one more thing you should consider; making this apply only to medically necessary treatments.
Army of Freedom medals received:
• N-Day² Medals -- N-Day³ Medals -- N-Day⁴ Medals
• Z-Day6 Medals
by Araraukar » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:55 am
New Waldensia wrote:Are you being difficult just to be difficult? My point was in a large nation, your thought would be to force them to travel to the other end of the country before they could go a much shorter distance to a foreign nation for treatment.
No other section mandates anything for the "receiving" nation.
But I can put 7 back in.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Deropia » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:04 pm
New Waldensia wrote:RL example. Let's say Bob has a medical condition, and lives in Seattle, Washington. His local hospital can treat it, but has a history of subpar results and care. The best facility in the US is in Miami, Florida, but across the border in Vancouver, British Columbia, is a top-tier facility that ranks among the best in the world for his condition.
You would force him to use his local hospital or Miami before he could drive the short distance to Vancouver and receive better care.
Lieutenant-Commander Jason MacAlister Deropian Ambassador to the World Assembly macalister.j@diplomats.com Office 1302, 13th Floor, World Assembly Headquarters | Minister of WA Affairs [TNP] Captain, North Pacific Army Special Forces Former Speaker of the Regional Assembly [TNP] |
by New Waldensia » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:06 pm
Potted Plants United wrote:"First of all, I really would advice against using "section" for "clause" in a medically-related proposal, due to its surgical meaning. Calling your clauses incisions is perhaps not the best way to ensure people will respond to them positively.
Potted Plants United wrote:In fact, clauses 1 and 3 are in direct contradiction with clause 7.
Potted Plants United wrote:Which also reminds me that nowhere do you mention anything about transport.
Potted Plants United wrote:Clause 4 should be mandatory to be in line with previously passed legislation.
Potted Plants United wrote:Also, you should refer to the World Assembly doing the banning, not the General Assembly. The General Assembly is merely the legislative branch of the World Assembly, a function that, though it can potentially affect all the member nations, is still fairly small compared to what all the committees and of course the member nations themselves do every day.
Potted Plants United wrote:Clause 6 has potential to prove confusing as you mention "nation of origin" as the only one not responsible for financing the medical tourism. I hope the author is aware that not all WA citizens reside in their nation of origin, but are in fact "legal aliens" in another member nation. Which nation should be free of the financing in such a case? And also, if the whole idea of the proposal is that the medical tourist would finance all their expenses - travel and medical care - then certainly also the nation where they travel to should not be held financially responsible for them!
Potted Plants United wrote:Clause 7 should be made clause 1, and the subsequent clauses should include the modifier for the exclusion granted in it."
Army of Freedom medals received:
• N-Day² Medals -- N-Day³ Medals -- N-Day⁴ Medals
• Z-Day6 Medals
by New Waldensia » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:09 pm
Deropia wrote:OOC: While we do accept foreign medical patients in Canada, someone seeking treatment in Canada must apply through Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship Canada and their application can be denied by the immigration officer if an applicant has a medical condition that could pose a danger to the public health or safety of Canadian residents OR the immigration officer makes a determination that excessive demands on health and social services have not been mitigated by examining factors such as proof of arrangements with the institution in which the treatment will take place, means to cover the cost of treatment and related expenses during the time spent in Canada and proof that medical and other costs have been prepaid. Patients also should be referred by a physician associated with a Canadian institution that provides the treatment sought. Usually admissions are only made if treatment is unavailable in the applicants home country. If someone requires emergency medical treatment while on vacation, I believe they receive treatment to make them well enough to safely travel. Basically, you can't just show up in Canada and say 'I'm sick! I need treatment!' since that will get you turned away at the border or point of entry by customs officials.
Army of Freedom medals received:
• N-Day² Medals -- N-Day³ Medals -- N-Day⁴ Medals
• Z-Day6 Medals
by Tinfect » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:17 pm
New Waldensia wrote:SECTION 4: Urges member nations to respect the rights of all patients and their legal representatives.
New Waldensia wrote:SECTION 7: Clarifies that no nation is required to accept foreign medical patients under this measure, and that foreign medical patients can be turned away for other reasons.
Aclion wrote:If you have a change in wording that would address the legality issues you see then suggest it.
[quote]Freedom to Seek Care
Category: Human Rights
Strength: Mild
Understanding that medical treatment is a complex issue and requires great care, and that health-care needs can be difficult to adequately treat without the proper resources, technology, training and expertise,
Aware that many nations do not have said resources and training available in their medical facilities, and that many rare diseases and disorders occur in such limited instances that some nations have little or no experience treating them,
Concerned that some nations may be harming their citizens by mandating that they be medically treated within their own borders, when better treatment may be obtained elsewhere,
The General Assembly:
SECTION 1: Prohibits member nations from denying or restricting their citizens and dependents from seeking healthcare in other nations at their own expense, so long as the individuals are not currently detained for medical or legal reasons, in addition to any restrictions imposed by standing legislation,
SECTION 2: Affirms the ability of member nations to set their own policies and restrictions regarding the acceptance of foreign patients, including refusal to accept foreign patients,
SECTION 3: Requires member nations to respect the rights of all patients and their legal representatives.
SECTION 4: Prohibits member nations from taking legal action against citizens or dependents who seek medical treatments or operations abroad, subject to standing legislation,
SECTION 5: Declares that the government of the patient's nation of origin is not obligated or financially responsible in any way for transport or medical treatment sought abroad, and that such arrangements may be made by and financed by the person(s) seeking treatment, or by their legal guardians or representation.
Imperium Central News Network: EMERGENCY ALERT: ALL CITIZENS ARE TO PROCEED TO EVACUATION SITES IMMEDIATELY | EMERGENCY ALERT: ALL FURTHER SUBSPACE SIGNALS AND SYSTEMS ARE TO BE DISABLED IMMEDIATELY | EMERGENCY ALERT: THE FOLLOWING SYSTEMS ARE ACCESS PROHIBITED BY STANDARD/BLACKOUT [Error: Format Unrecognized] | Indomitable Bastard #283
by New Waldensia » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:20 pm
Freedom to Seek Care
Category: Human Rights
Strength: MildBelieving that individuals possess an inalienable right to seek medical care of their own accord and at their own expense, above and beyond that which may be provided for them by their government or by their nation's laws,
Understanding that medical treatment is a complex issue and requires great care, and that health-care needs can be difficult to adequately treat without the proper resources, technology, training and expertise,
Aware that many nations do not have said resources and training available in their medical facilities, and that many rare diseases and disorders occur in such limited instances that some nations have little or no experience treating them,
Concerned that some nations may be harming their citizens by mandating that they be medically treated within their own borders, when better treatment may be obtained elsewhere,
The General Assembly:
SECTION 1: Prohibits member nations from denying or restricting their citizensand their dependentspermanent residents from seeking medically necessary healthcare in other nations at their own expense, so long as the individuals are not medically quarantined, incarcerated, or subjects of a criminal trial.
SECTION 2: Urges member nations on both ends of the travel to expedite their legal processes for travel to medical patients, and in the case of dependents their guardians or caretakers as well, or to those who urgently request and demonstrate a need for medical care abroad.
SECTION 3:Prohibits member nations from discriminating in their travel policies against non-citizens solely for traveling to seek medical treatment, with the exception that nations may set their own policies and restrictions regarding the acceptance of patients with infectious diseases.Affirms the ability of member nations to set their own policies and restrictions regarding the acceptance of non-resident patients, particularly those with communicable diseases.
SECTION 4: Requires member nations to respect the rights of all patients and their legal representatives.
SECTION 5: Prohibits member nations from prosecuting citizens who seek medical treatments or operations abroad that are restricted,
illegalor banned within their own borders but that have not been banned by theGeneralWorld Assembly, and requires that individuals who obtain such treatment be accepted back into their home nation without prejudice or any legal repercussions based on their medical treatment.
SECTION 6:Declares that the government of the patient's nation of origin is not obligated or financially responsible in any way for transport or medical treatment sought abroad, and that such arrangements must be made by and financed by the person(s) seeking treatment, or by their legal guardians or representation.Declares that patients seeking to travel to a foreign nation for the purpose of obtaining medical care or treatment are financially responsible for transport or medical treatment sought abroad, and that such arrangements must be made by and financed by the person(s) seeking treatment, or by their legal guardians or representation.
SECTION 7: Clarifies that no nation is required toacceptprovide medical care to foreign medical patients under this measure, and that foreign medical patients can be turned away for other reasons.
Co-authored by United Massachusetts
Army of Freedom medals received:
• N-Day² Medals -- N-Day³ Medals -- N-Day⁴ Medals
• Z-Day6 Medals
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