[PASSED] Repeal "Condemn The Black Riders"

[Imperium Anglorum]

Also remembering the events that happened just under a year later, when the Predator scandal resulted in both The Black Riders and DEN being carpet-bombed into permanent uninhability as a result,

A solid line.

[Raionitu]

I'll just never understand this attitude
if you tell someone bad 'we won't condemn you because you see it as an award' guess what they're going to do?
Of course bad people see acknowledgement of bad behavior as an award. That doesn't mean the rest of us have to 180 our response.

It's not not just that, otherwise this proposal would have never made it to vote. Raiders see condemnations as a badge of honor, so they will try to do things that got previous raiders did to get condemned. When a large part of that was done with cheating, leaving the condemnation in place encourages cheating


Edit: fixed a typo

[Lands That Are Free]

leaving the condemnation in place encourages cheating

does repealing it erase it from history? all i'm seeing in this is a whole resolution's worth of new attention

[Kaboomlandia]

leaving the condemnation in place encourages cheating

does repealing it erase it from history? all i'm seeing in this is a whole resolution's worth of new attention

The condemnation badge can no longer be clickable because TBR was permanently erased last year, but this will cross out the text in #127.

[TURTLESHROOM II]

Bitter grumbling was heard from the office vents as a turtle pulled back the grate on the vent and stuck his neck through, surveying the planning room.

"ARE YA'LL DRUNK? I don't care what them Black Riders did or cheated on, they're filthy Raiders and they deserve every condemnation they get! This is 'SPECIALLY true 'cause they're cheaters! We SHOULd be condemnin' cheaters!"

He hissed at the thought of the Black Raiders.

"The Region I call home was raided by the Black Riders and was only liberated after a fierce battle! Repealin' this Resolution is a slight on everyone ever harmed by the Black Riders!"

[Tim-Opolis]

Bitter grumbling was heard from the office vents as a turtle pulled back the grate on the vent and stuck his neck through, surveying the planning room.

"ARE YA'LL DRUNK? I don't care what them Black Riders did or cheated on, they're filthy Raiders and they deserve every condemnation they get! This is 'SPECIALLY true 'cause they're cheaters! We SHOULd be condemnin' cheaters!"

He hissed at the thought of the Black Raiders.

"The Region I call home was raided by the Black Riders and was only liberated after a fierce battle! Repealin' this Resolution is a slight on everyone ever harmed by the Black Riders!"

Until we remember that Raiders love Condemnations, treat them as badges of pride, and that this region doesn't deserve to be remembered by anyone for anything except being cheaters. The mentality that Condemnations should stay intact because they highlight the evil of Raiders is really flawed and is based around a misguided belief that those condemnations are actually taken seriously rather than as badges of pride.

[TURTLESHROOM II]

Until we remember that Raiders love Condemnations, treat them as badges of pride, and that this region doesn't deserve to be remembered by anyone for anything except being cheaters. The mentality that Condemnations should stay intact because they highlight the evil of Raiders is really flawed and is based around a misguided belief that those condemnations are actually taken seriously rather than as badges of pride.

The ceiling turtle also felt that the Timopolis representative was misguided.

"I think ya'll have a bit of misguidin' too. See, that's where ya'll forget who Condemnations are meant for. Raiders see them as badges of pride. Ya'll don't see them as prideful, and we non-participants in the Devil's Congregate don't eithuh. Condemnations are intended for civilized nations to condemn the evils of Nationstates. What Raiders think of them ain't no issue hee-yuh, or in the topic in general."

[Fauxia]

Until we remember that Raiders love Condemnations, treat them as badges of pride, and that this region doesn't deserve to be remembered by anyone for anything except being cheaters. The mentality that Condemnations should stay intact because they highlight the evil of Raiders is really flawed and is based around a misguided belief that those condemnations are actually taken seriously rather than as badges of pride.

The ceiling turtle also felt that the Timopolis representative was misguided.

"I think ya'll have a bit of misguidin' too. See, that's where ya'll forget who Condemnations are meant for. Raiders see them as badges of pride. Ya'll don't see them as prideful, and we non-participants in the Devil's Congregate don't eithuh. Condemnations are intended for civilized nations to condemn the evils of Nationstates. What Raiders think of them ain't no issue hee-yuh, or in the topic in general."

”Except that this condemnation encourages nations to break international law.” OOC: AKA cheating

[Cheeksam]

As the author of SC#127, while I'll of course be sorry to see something I authored be repealed, I do support this repeal.

... why haven't you refounded your nation if it's yours?

[Cheeksam]

I'll just never understand this attitude
if you tell someone bad 'we won't condemn you because you see it as an award' guess what they're going to do?
Of course bad people see acknowledgement of bad behavior as an award. That doesn't mean the rest of us have to 180 our response.

I agree. Against.

[Fauxia]

I'll just never understand this attitude
if you tell someone bad 'we won't condemn you because you see it as an award' guess what they're going to do?
Of course bad people see acknowledgement of bad behavior as an award. That doesn't mean the rest of us have to 180 our response.

I agree. Against.

This is the thing, it isn’t just raiders. Almost all GPers understand C&c like this:

Commendation: For Nations the excel at being “good” (defending, writing issues, writing wa legislation, building regions, RP, etc)
Condemnation: For Nations That excel at being “evil” (raiding, role playing, etc.)

The entire GP community sees condemnations as badges. If you are condemned and you were condemned for stuff you achieved through cheating, you don’t excel at it, you had to cheat to do it. These people shouldn’t be publicly recognized.

[Sternberg]

I was a little uneasy at first with having a complete repeal of the original.

This Condemnation is the final recorded sanction against one of the most notorious (now deceased) raiding orgs on NS - I believed that there should've been something on the record to remain as a permanent warning of the actions that will instantly send violators into oblivion. It should also be made clear that both the SC and Powers-That-Be had acted (if though there may have been erroneous overreach), and not to have others lull themselves into thinking of the falsehood that they can't be held accountable, or conversely believe that they won't be protected when they're attacked in such a way.

However, on reflection, damnatio memoriae is the only fitting alternative that I can think of for the most reprehensible individuals that caused the most damage by their actions as a part of TBR, or who dragged down those of their peers within and without who did try and do the right thing.

If a Condemnation is not being taken seriously by those who need to heed its warnings the most - and if permanently closing the door on TBR and those responsible can be augmented further by this Repeal - then I can't provide a complete argument against it.

It is therefore - with some reluctance - that I have made a recommendation to my delegate to vote FOR this repeal.

[Raionitu]

Until we remember that Raiders love Condemnations, treat them as badges of pride, and that this region doesn't deserve to be remembered by anyone for anything except being cheaters. The mentality that Condemnations should stay intact because they highlight the evil of Raiders is really flawed and is based around a misguided belief that those condemnations are actually taken seriously rather than as badges of pride.

The ceiling turtle also felt that the Timopolis representative was misguided.

"I think ya'll have a bit of misguidin' too. See, that's where ya'll forget who Condemnations are meant for. Raiders see them as badges of pride. Ya'll don't see them as prideful, and we non-participants in the Devil's Congregate don't eithuh. Condemnations are intended for civilized nations to condemn the evils of Nationstates. What Raiders think of them ain't no issue hee-yuh, or in the topic in general."

Here's the thing. Basically no one outside of GP is likely to look at it, and since they are no longer around you can't try to give me something about "warning nationstates of the evil of TBR". What I do see is a conversation that I have actually had with people. (summary of multiple conversations)
New guy: Who is The Black Riders?
Me: They were a raider org that collapsed a few years back, how'd you hear about them?
New guy: I saw they got condemned, was wondering what they did.
Me: They used stuff against site rules to raid more effectively, it's why they are no longer around.

and then I have to make sure the new guy who wants a condemnation of his own knows its a really bad idea to try to cheat to get one. I'd hope we can all agree that doing what we can to prevent future cheating should be the top priority.

[Wrapper]

Repeal "Condemn The Black Riders" was passed 11,145 votes to 2,758.

[Kaboomlandia]

Thanks for the continuing support through the project, everyone. This wraps it up. Now I'll go back to my semi-inactive state of resolution writing until something juicy pops up.

[States of Glory]

Thanks for the continuing support through the project, everyone. This wraps it up. Now I'll go back to my semi-inactive state of resolution writing until something juicy pops up.

Four more resolutions! Four more resolutions!