[DEFEATED] Repeal of Reproductive Freedoms

[Christian Democrats]

But you do acknowledge that your assertion that abortion is simply a fallback is a false portrayal -- that, in reality, 90-95% of women who obtain abortions are not using contraception on a regular basis?

How does that relate to the principal that a woman has the right to choose what happens to her body?

It's a yes-or-no question.

[Calladan]

How does that relate to the principal that a woman has the right to choose what happens to her body?

It's a yes-or-no question.

Is that so?

[Christian Democrats]

It's a yes-or-no question.

Is that so?

Do you acknowledge that 90-95% of women who procure abortions are non-users or semi-users of contraception?

Non-user: never uses contraception
Semi-user: uses contraception but only sometimes

[Calladan]

Is that so?

Do you acknowledge that 90-95% of women who procure abortions are non-users or semi-users of contraception?

Non-user: never uses contraception
Semi-user: uses contraception but only sometimes

Oh - you see, if you'd just explained that then I would have said "I am still not sure why it matters, because as I said the basic principle for why abortion should be legal is that a woman has the right to chose what happens to her own body. So, for me, the 'why' she ends up pregnant is not as important was what happens next"

[Christian Democrats]

Do you acknowledge that 90-95% of women who procure abortions are non-users or semi-users of contraception?

Non-user: never uses contraception
Semi-user: uses contraception but only sometimes

Oh - you see, if you'd just explained that then I would have said "I am still not sure why it matters, because as I said the basic principle for why abortion should be legal is that a woman has the right to chose what happens to her own body. So, for me, the 'why' she ends up pregnant is not as important was what happens next"

So your argument above (women need a backup if contraception fails) is false, at least in the vast majority of cases? In your opinion, it's perfectly acceptable for women to use abortion as their primary form of birth control, yes?

[Calladan]

Oh - you see, if you'd just explained that then I would have said "I am still not sure why it matters, because as I said the basic principle for why abortion should be legal is that a woman has the right to chose what happens to her own body. So, for me, the 'why' she ends up pregnant is not as important was what happens next"

So your argument above (women need a backup if contraception fails) is false, at least in the vast majority of cases? In your opinion, it's perfectly acceptable for women to use abortion as their primary form of birth control, yes?

No. That argument is true - if someone gets pregnant because their contraception fails, outlawing abortion would force them to be pregnant against their will and I would consider that to be cruel and unusual punishment.

But as with all things, ensuring that people in bad situations have a way out sometimes has side effects that are unavoidable. But I would rather have those side effects (women using abortion as a primary form of birth control) than having ALL women being forced to be pregnant against their will. For me it is the lesser of two evils.

[Christian Democrats]

So your argument above (women need a backup if contraception fails) is false, at least in the vast majority of cases? In your opinion, it's perfectly acceptable for women to use abortion as their primary form of birth control, yes?

No. That argument is true - if someone gets pregnant because their contraception fails, outlawing abortion would force them to be pregnant against their will and I would consider that to be cruel and unusual punishment.

Thus, if someone gets pregnant because she's not using contraception on a regular basis (90-95% of cases), outlawing abortion in her case would not force her to be pregnant against her will and would not be cruel or unusual to her, yes? A ban on abortion would, in your view, be morally justified in 90-95% of cases?

[Calladan]

No. That argument is true - if someone gets pregnant because their contraception fails, outlawing abortion would force them to be pregnant against their will and I would consider that to be cruel and unusual punishment.

Thus, if someone gets pregnant because she's not using contraception on a regular basis (90-95% of cases), outlawing abortion in her case would not force her to be pregnant against her will and would not be cruel or unusual to her, yes? A ban on abortion would, in your view, be morally justified in 90-95% of cases?

If someone breaks into my house and steals my TV then they took the TV without my consent, yes?

But if I leave my front door open (because I am drunk, or because I am forgetful, or because I am just plain stupid) and someone walks in and takes my TV, does that imply they took it WITH my consent? That I wanted them to take my TV? No - of course it doesn't. They still stole my TV without my consent, even if I left my front door open.

So unless she had sex with the intention of getting pregnant, then no - of course it would be forcing her to be pregnant against her will. I would've thought that would be obvious.

I am really not sure what you are getting at, but to sum up, once abortion is outlawed, the only time a woman is not pregnant against her will is when she wants to be pregnant. It's very simple to remember - if a woman wants to be pregnant, then she wants to be pregnant. Otherwise, she doesn't.

[Christian Democrats]

Thus, if someone gets pregnant because she's not using contraception on a regular basis (90-95% of cases), outlawing abortion in her case would not force her to be pregnant against her will and would not be cruel or unusual to her, yes? A ban on abortion would, in your view, be morally justified in 90-95% of cases?

If someone breaks into my house and steals my TV then they took the TV without my consent, yes?

Rape.

But if I leave my front door open (because I am drunk, or because I am forgetful, or because I am just plain stupid) and someone walks in and takes my TV, does that imply they took it WITH my consent? That I wanted them to take my TV?

More than 90% of women who procure abortions are drunkards, amnesiacs, or idiots? Good to know.

In all seriousness, you've failed to provide a persuasive reason why women who "leave their front doors open" (i.e., who don't use contraception on a regular basis) should be permitted to obtain abortions. Leaving the door to one's house open isn't consent to theft, but pregnancy is surely consensual (even according to your criterion) when a woman has sexual intercourse while not using contraception. Literally, she's participating in the act that causes pregnancy without taking any measures to prevent pregnancy.

(For the moment, I'll ignore the fact that you haven't yet provided a compelling rationale for abortion in the small minority of cases -- contraception failure.)

[Calladan]

If someone breaks into my house and steals my TV then they took the TV without my consent, yes?

Rape.

But if I leave my front door open (because I am drunk, or because I am forgetful, or because I am just plain stupid) and someone walks in and takes my TV, does that imply they took it WITH my consent? That I wanted them to take my TV?

More than 90% of women who procure abortions are drunkards, amnesiacs, or idiots? Good to know.

In all seriousness, you've failed to provide a persuasive reason why women who "leave their front doors open" (i.e., who don't use contraception on a regular basis) should be permitted to obtain abortions. Leaving the door to one's house open isn't consent to theft, but pregnancy is surely consensual (even according to your criterion) when a woman has sexual intercourse while not using contraception. Literally, she's participating in the act that causes pregnancy without taking any measures to prevent pregnancy.

(For the moment, I'll ignore the fact that you haven't yet provided a compelling rationale for abortion in the small minority of cases -- contraception failure.)

I have a strong suspicion that the majority of the time that couples engage in sex and forget to use contraception is usually because they are drunk, or at the very least they are worse the wear for alcohol. That doesn't necessarily mean they are drunkards - you can get drunk one night without being an alcoholic (from what I understand) - but both of them being more than a little merry probably does play a part. The other primary reason would probably be being swept up in the moment.

I know anecdotal evidence doesn't make for actual evidence, but I am willing to bet I am right.

And as for providing compelling reasons - I am never going to be able to do that, because nothing I say is going to satisfy you. You are on some weird moral crusade to prove you are morally superior to the entire WA, and nothing I say is going to make you happy until I agree with you. And that is never going to happen, because you are wrong - you are just plain wrong.

So feel free to continue your quest to prove yourself right, because I am done enabling you.

Women and men have the right to decide what happens to their bodies. For me, that is the all of it, the end.

[Christian Democrats]

you are wrong - you are just plain wrong

I'm not the one who thinks it's perfectly acceptable to use abortion as one's primary form of birth control.

[Calladan]

you are wrong - you are just plain wrong

I'm not the one who thinks it's perfectly acceptable to use abortion as one's primary form of birth control.

If you consider the phrase "lesser of two evils" to mean "perfectly acceptable" then yes, I guess I consider it to be perfectly acceptable. However I would also suggest that in those circumstances you buy a new dictionary.

[Christian Democrats]

I'm not the one who thinks it's perfectly acceptable to use abortion as one's primary form of birth control.

If you consider the phrase "lesser of two evils" to mean "perfectly acceptable" then yes, I guess I consider it to be perfectly acceptable.

I didn't realize that it was evil to carry an unplanned pregnancy to term.

[Thyerata]

If you consider the phrase "lesser of two evils" to mean "perfectly acceptable" then yes, I guess I consider it to be perfectly acceptable.

I didn't realize that it was evil to carry an unplanned pregnancy to term.

Yes, it can, because the unplanned pregnancy may have been procured by rape, which is a fundamental violation of a woman's dignity.

Or is the concept of dignity no longer relevant to you?

[North Arkana]

This is NS. Your "supposedly real" statistics regarding contraceptive use mean either nothing, or only exist in YOUR nation. Chances are that there are WA nations where the species LITERALLY has a life-threatening parasite when they get pregnant, and that in other nations your statistics don't even apply.
If your claims can't find some way to relevant across the entire mildly insane spectrum of NS nations within the WA, then kindly leave them out. Hell, I wouldn't put it beyond NS to have WA nations where pregnancy by demons is possible, and I'm sure the Church there is real fine with the idea of aborting those, unless they can see past their own dogma and value every potential birth equally. Or are we to assume that you only support the HUMAN fetuses and zygotes of the WA nations?

I didn't realize that it was evil to carry an unplanned pregnancy to term.

Yes, it can, because the unplanned pregnancy may have been procured by rape, which is a fundamental violation of a woman's dignity.

Or is the concept of dignity no longer relevant to you?

Highly religious anti-choice stance, what do you think female dignity means to them?

[Calladan]

If you consider the phrase "lesser of two evils" to mean "perfectly acceptable" then yes, I guess I consider it to be perfectly acceptable.

I didn't realize that it was evil to carry an unplanned pregnancy to term.

Okay - I have to ask. Do you get paid by someone EVERY TIME you take a quote of mine out of context? Because by now you must be up to a metric fuckton of money.

And seriously. This is the last time I am responding to you, because you are clearly incapable of paying attention, clearly incapable of putting quotes in their proper context and clearly incapable of actually having a sensible argument.

And it's not that you are pro-life, because there are countless pro-life advocates in this thread who are not incapable of any of things, and who are actually rational human beings. So clearly, must just be you.

So feel free to debate with anyone else who wants to bang their head against a brick wall, because I am done.

[Thyerata]

This is NS. Your "supposedly real" statistics regarding contraceptive use mean either nothing, or only exist in YOUR nation. Chances are that there are WA nations where the species LITERALLY has a life-threatening parasite when they get pregnant, and that in other nations your statistics don't even apply.
If your claims can't find some way to relevant across the entire mildly insane spectrum of NS nations within the WA, then kindly leave them out. Hell, I wouldn't put it beyond NS to have WA nations where pregnancy by demons is possible, and I'm sure the Church there is real fine with the idea of aborting those, unless they can see past their own dogma and value every potential birth equally. Or are we to assume that you only support the HUMAN fetuses and zygotes of the Way nations?

Yes, it can, because the unplanned pregnancy may have been procured by rape, which is a fundamental violation of a woman's dignity.

Or is the concept of dignity no longer relevant to you?

Highly religious anti-choice stance, what do you think female dignity means to them?

I assume it means naff all. In which case, he disgusts me and deserves no more than my utter contempt

[Christian Democrats]

I didn't realize that it was evil to carry an unplanned pregnancy to term.

Yes, it can, because the unplanned pregnancy may have been procured by rape, which is a fundamental violation of a woman's dignity.

Or is the concept of dignity no longer relevant to you?

As we asked Calladan above, what are your thoughts on the average case? More than 90% of abortions are performed for social or economic reasons, and more than 90% of abortions are performed on children whose mothers don't use contraception regularly.

The question of rape is irrelevant in this debate because this repeal proposal would not eliminate abortion in cases of rape.

I didn't realize that it was evil to carry an unplanned pregnancy to term.

Okay - I have to ask. Do you get paid by someone EVERY TIME you take a quote of mine out of context? Because by now you must be up to a metric fuckton of money.

And seriously. This is the last time I am responding to you, because you are clearly incapable of paying attention, clearly incapable of putting quotes in their proper context and clearly incapable of actually having a sensible argument.

And it's not that you are pro-life, because there are countless pro-life advocates in this thread who are not incapable of any of things, and who are actually rational human beings. So clearly, must just be you.

So feel free to debate with anyone else who wants to bang their head against a brick wall, because I am done.

You said that abortion is the lesser of two evils in this situation: a woman gets tipsy, has consensual sexual intercourse without contraception, and becomes pregnant. My question: How is it evil to carry an unplanned pregnancy to term?

[North Arkana]

Yes, it can, because the unplanned pregnancy may have been procured by rape, which is a fundamental violation of a woman's dignity.

Or is the concept of dignity no longer relevant to you?

As we asked Calladan above, what are your thoughts on the average case? More than 90% of abortions are performed for social or economic reasons, and more than 90% of abortions are performed on children whose mothers don't use contraception regularly.

The question of rape is irrelevant in this debate because this repeal proposal would not eliminate abortion in cases of rape.

This is NS. Your "supposedly real" statistics regarding contraceptive use mean either nothing, or only exist in YOUR nation. Chances are that there are WA nations where the species LITERALLY has a life-threatening parasite when they get pregnant, and that in other nations your statistics don't even apply. If your claims can't find some way to relevant across the entire mildly insane spectrum of NS nations within the WA, then kindly leave them out. Hell, I wouldn't put it beyond NS to have WA nations where pregnancy by demons is possible, and I'm sure the Church there is real fine with the idea of aborting those, unless they can see past their own dogma and value every potential birth equally. Or are we to assume that you only support the HUMAN fetuses and zygotes of the WA nations?

[Attempted Socialism]

As we asked Calladan above, what are your thoughts on the average case? More than 90% of abortions are performed for social or economic reasons, and more than 90% of abortions are performed on children whose mothers don't use contraception regularly.

The question of rape is irrelevant in this debate because this repeal proposal would not eliminate abortion in cases of rape.

"We would like to note, for the record, that those numbers are not true for the Solidarity Movement. Perhaps if the Christian Democrats took a look at their sexual education, and offered every woman a free IUD around the onset of sexual activity, they would see a drop in those numbers.
However, even if those numbers are true somewhere, that does not change our opinion, since our opinion is simply based on the bodily autonomy of persons. If you are a person, have personhood, you have the right to decide what happens with your body. Whether that is drugs, pregnancy, tattoos and more, as long as you do not harm someone else by your actions, your body is your own. Incidentally, this is the same basic principle that leads us to oppose slavery, and one of the principles against exploitation in general."

You said that abortion is the lesser of two evils in this situation: a woman gets tipsy, has consensual sexual intercourse without contraception, and becomes pregnant. My question: How is it evil to carry an unplanned pregnancy to term?

"Even this attempt at empty rhetoric and quotemining is silly. The argument has never been that it is evil for a woman to carry an unplanned pregnancy to term. The argument, as you well know, has always been that it is evil to force her to do so. You are muddying the water and moving the goalposts, Ambassador, and it is clear that it is an attempt to score points for the casual onlooker rather than engaging in honest debate. You know too well that you are fabricating an argument, indeed, a strawman, that was never there. Abortion is not wanted, insofar that in the best world, all women who become pregnant want exactly that, but we do clearly not live in a perfect world. I disagree with the Ambassador from Calladan in wording, abortion is not the lesser of two evils because it is not evil, but the sentiment is pretty clear, and it is a sign of dishonesty or stupidity to pretend otherwise. I have conversed enough with you, Ambassador, to know that you are not stupid. Please stop being dishonest."

'MacBeth' Illum takes a deep breath before returning to the microphone.

"You clearly have arguments, in your mind, against abortion. These are not your arguments, they are just attempts of rhetorical workarounds, so you can demolish a strawman of your opponents without ever supplying your own argument. If you have the strength of your convictions, you will be able to present an argument in support of reducing the access to or outlawing abortions, without erecting strawmen, without having to use nightmarish stories without hold in reality, and without redefining abortion to be about, say, babies or children. You may have different premises, and we may never come to agreement, but at least it would be clear why we are in disagreement."

[Thyerata]

Yes, it can, because the unplanned pregnancy may have been procured by rape, which is a fundamental violation of a woman's dignity.

Or is the concept of dignity no longer relevant to you?

As we asked Calladan above, what are your thoughts on the average case? More than 90% of abortions are performed for social or economic reasons, and more than 90% of abortions are performed on children whose mothers don't use contraception regularly.

The question of rape is irrelevant in this debate because this repeal proposal would not eliminate abortion in cases of rape.

Okay - I have to ask. Do you get paid by someone EVERY TIME you take a quote of mine out of context? Because by now you must be up to a metric fuckton of money.

And seriously. This is the last time I am responding to you, because you are clearly incapable of paying attention, clearly incapable of putting quotes in their proper context and clearly incapable of actually having a sensible argument.

And it's not that you are pro-life, because there are countless pro-life advocates in this thread who are not incapable of any of things, and who are actually rational human beings. So clearly, must just be you.

So feel free to debate with anyone else who wants to bang their head against a brick wall, because I am done.

You said that abortion is the lesser of two evils in this situation: a woman gets tipsy, has consensual sexual intercourse without contraception, and becomes pregnant. My question: How is it evil to carry an unplanned pregnancy to term?

As predicted, a woman's dignity is an alien concept to you. That is misogyny, and thus you are a misogynist. You, sir, disgust me, and deserve nothing more than my absolute contempt.

Good day.

[Fauxia]

I didn't realize that it was evil to carry an unplanned pregnancy to term.

Yes, it can, because the unplanned pregnancy may have been procured by rape, which is a fundamental violation of a woman's dignity.

Or is the concept of dignity no longer relevant to you?

"Oh yes, because killing someone for another's comfort really is dignifying."

[Fauxia]

As we asked Calladan above, what are your thoughts on the average case? More than 90% of abortions are performed for social or economic reasons, and more than 90% of abortions are performed on children whose mothers don't use contraception regularly.

The question of rape is irrelevant in this debate because this repeal proposal would not eliminate abortion in cases of rape.


You said that abortion is the lesser of two evils in this situation: a woman gets tipsy, has consensual sexual intercourse without contraception, and becomes pregnant. My question: How is it evil to carry an unplanned pregnancy to term?

As predicted, a woman's dignity is an alien concept to you. That is misogyny, and thus you are a misogynist. You, sir, disgust me, and deserve nothing more than my absolute contempt.

Good day.

"If insults are all you can throw, you clearly can't win."

[Godular]

As predicted, a woman's dignity is an alien concept to you. That is misogyny, and thus you are a misogynist. You, sir, disgust me, and deserve nothing more than my absolute contempt.

Good day.

"If insults are all you can throw, you clearly can't win."

The repeal vote suggests otherwise.

[Fauxia]

"If insults are all you can throw, you clearly can't win."

The repeal vote suggests otherwise.

"Ambassador, you may have an argument. The ambassador from Thyerata does not. Just insults."