[DEFEATED] Repeal of Reproductive Freedoms

[The Sheika]

I am 100% in favor of repealing this legislation. Let me explain why. You see, there is no logical reason for a "mother" to terminate her pregnancy just for the convenience of said "mother". It's not a "right" to be able to murder a soon to be child, it's murder. Life begins at conception, and the heart beat at 3 weeks. The fetus is able to feel the pain when it's terminated. I do not understand how you find the act of abortion humane whatsoever. If the "mother" didn't want a child she could use contraceptives (Although I don't support it, it's better than out right murder).If you were to argue, "What about in cases of rape and incest?" Well, there is no need to murder offspring because of the act that someone else forced upon the woman. Why not just kill the rapist instead, or is that inhumane? If the mother doesn't want the child, then she is totally free to put it up for adoption or give he/her to an orphanage. Debate me.

You say there is no logical reason for a mother to terminate a pregnancy, that however is false. Consider for a moment a mother finds out the child lacks vital internal organs that would be necessary to live. Also, what about the chances of a pregnancy being life threatening to the mother? You also make the mistake of thinking that those who are pro choice consider abortion to be humane. Personally, I would rather a mother consider other options, but the choice and the consequences of said choice ultimately fall upon her. The use of contraceptives can be effective, but not 100%. Sometimes contraception can fail, even using multiple levels.

Onto your point about rape or incest. You are against abortion. Does that infer that you would force the woman carry to term the result of a highly traumatic event? So from being forced upon to being forced to face a reminder of what happened through the full term of her pregnancy? Please, at what point, is that humane? Simply killing the rapist as you suggested will only eliminate the cause, but not the lingering psychological damage that is likely to follow. The possibility of never feeling safe or secure around anyone and other issues that may occur.

[The Carthusian Order]

There's no pain for the fetus, and minimal pain for the woman.

“At 20 weeks, the fetal brain has the full complement of brain cells present in adulthood, ready and waiting to receive pain signals from the body, and their electrical activity can be recorded by standard electroencephalography (EEG).”
— Dr. Paul Ranalli, neurologist, University of Toronto

The following is a list of side effects that are frequently experienced after an abortion. It is possible to experience these side effects for as long as 2 to 4 weeks following the procedure.
Abdominal pain and cramping
Nausea
Vomiting
Diarrhea
Spotting and bleeding


Although serious complications occur in fewer than 1 out of 100 first trimester abortions and approximately 1 out of every 50 late term abortions, it is important to be aware of the following risks:
Heavy or persistent bleeding
Infection or sepsis
Damage to the cervix
Scarring of the uterine lining
Perforation of the uterus
Damage to other organs
Death

Contraceptives can fail.

Rarely, and if so the offspring does not have to be murdered because of it.

It's rather silly to claim that the fetus is being punished. The pregnancy is being terminated. There is no malice to it.

The fetus is offspring of the mother, it's being punished by not being allowed the right of life outside of the mother's womb.

This does not solve the issue of an unwanted pregnancy. If she does not wish to remain pregnant, this is essentially trying to claim the problem is solved by telling her to remain pregnant.

So, it's okay to murder if the life isn't wanted. So that makes it okay for me to kill my grandpa just because I don't want him?

[The Carthusian Order]

Onto your point about rape or incest. You are against abortion. Does that infer that you would force the woman carry to term the result of a highly traumatic event? So from being forced upon to being forced to face a reminder of what happened through the full term of her pregnancy?

So, it's still acceptable to kill offspring at that point? It's a cruel world, but not all of it's bad a child is a beacon of hope. The child can grow to make good of it's life. Life doesn't have to be stamped out because of rape. The mother is able to go to therapy and get help for the problem, she doesn't have to murder her offspring. Also, look at the points I talked about with the other guy.

[Godular]

There's no pain for the fetus, and minimal pain for the woman.

“At 20 weeks, the fetal brain has the full complement of brain cells present in adulthood, ready and waiting to receive pain signals from the body, and their electrical activity can be recorded by standard electroencephalography (EEG).”
— Dr. Paul Ranalli, neurologist, University of Toronto

At 20 weeks, a woman has come to the decision to carry the fetus to term, barring medical emergencies or other unforeseen circumstances.

The following is a list of side effects that are frequently experienced after an abortion. It is possible to experience these side effects for as long as 2 to 4 weeks following the procedure.
Abdominal pain and cramping
Nausea
Vomiting
Diarrhea
Spotting and bleeding

Just like most miscarriages, really.

Although serious complications occur in fewer than 1 out of 100 first trimester abortions and approximately 1 out of every 50 late term abortions, it is important to be aware of the following risks:
Heavy or persistent bleeding
Infection or sepsis
Damage to the cervix
Scarring of the uterine lining
Perforation of the uterus
Damage to other organs
Death

Just like pregnancies in general, really.

Contraceptives can fail.

Rarely, and if so the offspring does not have to be murdered because of it.

It isn't being murdered. It's just being removed.

It's rather silly to claim that the fetus is being punished. The pregnancy is being terminated. There is no malice to it.

The fetus is offspring of the mother, it's being punished by not being allowed the right of life outside of the mother's womb.

Incorrect. The woman is simply terminating an undesired pregnancy. The fetus is irrelevant to the scenario, and is not even capable of feeling or caring about the situation. You however are quite readily promoting punishing the woman by forcing her to carry a pregnancy she did not even wish for against her will.

This does not solve the issue of an unwanted pregnancy. If she does not wish to remain pregnant, this is essentially trying to claim the problem is solved by telling her to remain pregnant.

So, it's okay to murder if the life isn't wanted.

It is perfectly legitimate to utilize all necessary means to prevent one's body from being used by another against their will. That those means are lethal for the other party is unfortunate, but ultimately irrelevant.

So that makes it okay for me to kill my grandpa just because I don't want him?

False equivalency. Your grandfather is not living in your body.

[The Sheika]

Onto your point about rape or incest. You are against abortion. Does that infer that you would force the woman carry to term the result of a highly traumatic event? So from being forced upon to being forced to face a reminder of what happened through the full term of her pregnancy?

So, it's still acceptable to kill offspring at that point? It's a cruel world, but not all of it's bad a child is a beacon of hope. The child can grow to make good of it's life. Life doesn't have to be stamped out because of rape. The mother is able to go to therapy and get help for the problem, she doesn't have to murder her offspring. Also, look at the points I talked about with the other guy.

Therapy is great and all, but it is not a one size fits all solution. For some it can fail, miserably so. Given that, you would rather she be forced to face a constant reminder of an even that was not her choice? Going further beyond, yes the potential exists for the child to grow and make good of it's life. Just as the potential exists for the child not to do so.

Secondly, your previous points are noted. At 20 weeks a fetus may be able to feel pain, I'll give you that. And a heart beats at 3 weeks, you can have that one, too. So what about before either one of those. Making the tough and life altering decision to follow through with the procedure before a heartbeat exists, or before the fetus can feel pain? One point still remains to be answered; what is an expectant mother to do should she discover the child would be born lacking vital organs, vital meaning that without them the chances of living are near zero but quality of life is non-existent.

[Godular]

Even if that were relevant... it's rather silly to say life begins at two separate times. As for the right... I guess nobody has the right to self-defense in you-town?

So, you're telling me something is not alive just because it doesn't have a heartbeat?

No. I'm saying it's not relevant. And you contradicted yourself in the span of half a sentence.

And explain to me how killing offspring is self defense.

If another person is using your body against your will, you have the right to use any means necessary to remedy that situation. If we consider the fetus a person, and the woman does not consent to her body being used as a house and a buffet by that fetus, then the two situations are very much the same.

[North Arkana]

There's no pain for the fetus, and minimal pain for the woman.

“At 20 weeks, the fetal brain has the full complement of brain cells present in adulthood, ready and waiting to receive pain signals from the body, and their electrical activity can be recorded by standard electroencephalography (EEG).”
— Dr. Paul Ranalli, neurologist, University of Toronto

20 weeks. 20 weeks.

The following is a list of side effects that are frequently experienced after an abortion. It is possible to experience these side effects for as long as 2 to 4 weeks following the procedure.
Abdominal pain and cramping
Nausea
Vomiting
Diarrhea
Spotting and bleeding

That sounds like being pregnant.

Although serious complications occur in fewer than 1 out of 100 first trimester abortions and approximately 1 out of every 50 late term abortions, it is important to be aware of the following risks:
Heavy or persistent bleeding
Infection or sepsis
Damage to the cervix
Scarring of the uterine lining
Perforation of the uterus
Damage to other organs
Death

That sounds similar to the possible outcome of EVERY OTHER SURGERY EVER.

So, it's okay to murder if the life isn't wanted. So that makes it okay for me to kill my grandpa just because I don't want him?

No, because that has no bearing on a non-person, but if your grandpa decides that he wants voluntary euthanasia and still holds power attorney, then I suppose he has that right, but that's one thing and this is another.

[United Massachusetts]

Ahem, I have written up a much more moderate alternative for GAR #286, one which I hope member nations will look at.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=420809

[Koleksia]

Of course i accept this, I believe that the WA will make a new act that is far more benefiting for all humans, but before you ask why dis i accepted this repeal,
I want you to ask yourself, imagine your a baby literally 1 day before you were born, your basically a living breathing creature now, but then the one who created you decided that you didnt "deserved" to live,
So she choose abortion, just 1 day before you were born, she killed you, a living breathing creature,
That's basically can be classified as a "murder" because you were innocent,
That is why i would like to accept this repeal

[Calladan]

Of course i accept this, I believe that the WA will make a new act that is far more benefiting for all humans, but before you ask why dis i accepted this repeal,
I want you to ask yourself, imagine your a baby literally 1 day before you were born, your basically a living breathing creature now, but then the one who created you decided that you didnt "deserved" to live,
So she choose abortion, just 1 day before you were born, she killed you, a living breathing creature,
That's basically can be classified as a "murder" because you were innocent,
That is why i would like to accept this repeal

Imagine your mother never wanted to have you but got drunk one night at a party and got knocked up by a loser heroin addict. She is an alcoholic and has no hope of taking care of you. She takes you home to her one room flat. Two days after you are born she gets off her arse drunk and falls over, cracking her head open on the coffee table. Her body isn't found for another six weeks, by which time you have starved to death - your miserable, horrible life finally ending after six weeks of torment, pain, suffering and agony.

But sure - abortion is cruel and usual and leads to children suffering.

[Ventlimer]

Of course i accept this, I believe that the WA will make a new act that is far more benefiting for all humans, but before you ask why dis i accepted this repeal,
I want you to ask yourself, imagine your a baby literally 1 day before you were born, your basically a living breathing creature now, but then the one who created you decided that you didnt "deserved" to live,
So she choose abortion, just 1 day before you were born, she killed you, a living breathing creature,
That's basically can be classified as a "murder" because you were innocent,
That is why i would like to accept this repeal

Imagine your mother never wanted to have you but got drunk one night at a party and got knocked up by a loser heroin addict. She is an alcoholic and has no hope of taking care of you. She takes you home to her one room flat. Two days after you are born she gets off her arse drunk and falls over, cracking her head open on the coffee table. Her body isn't found for another six weeks, by which time you have starved to death - your miserable, horrible life finally ending after six weeks of torment, pain, suffering and agony.

But sure - abortion is cruel and usual and leads to children suffering.

Or woman doesn't initially want the kid, would have gotten an abortion. First month in, she turns her life around after deciding she wants the kid and stops drinking and actually takes the kid on her own. You know, the whole maternal bonding while kid is in the womb things is quite powerful.

[North Arkana]

Of course i accept this, I believe that the WA will make a new act that is far more benefiting for all humans, but before you ask why dis i accepted this repeal,
I want you to ask yourself, imagine your a baby literally 1 day before you were born, your basically a living breathing creature now, but then the one who created you decided that you didnt "deserved" to live,
So she choose abortion, just 1 day before you were born, she killed you, a living breathing creature,
That's basically can be classified as a "murder" because you were innocent,
That is why i would like to accept this repeal

Strawmen are made of straw, sir delegate.

[Calladan]

Imagine your mother never wanted to have you but got drunk one night at a party and got knocked up by a loser heroin addict. She is an alcoholic and has no hope of taking care of you. She takes you home to her one room flat. Two days after you are born she gets off her arse drunk and falls over, cracking her head open on the coffee table. Her body isn't found for another six weeks, by which time you have starved to death - your miserable, horrible life finally ending after six weeks of torment, pain, suffering and agony.

But sure - abortion is cruel and usual and leads to children suffering.

Or woman doesn't initially want the kid, would have gotten an abortion. First month in, she turns her life around after deciding she wants the kid and stops drinking and actually takes the kid on her own. You know, the whole maternal bonding while kid is in the womb things is quite powerful.

Or she doesn't. Instead she subconsciously blames the child for all the extra expense she now has, so she starts to put lit cigarettes out on its skin, she runs the bath too hot and just throws the kid into it, regardless of the screams and crying, and she lets it sleep in a bed filled with piss and crap all night because she literally doesn't care if it lives or dies.

Look - we can go round and round on this for the rest of the time this repeal is at vote, and you are not going to convince me, and I am not going to convince you. So how about, instead, we just accept that each of us has a point and move on? Because while it might seem like I enjoy writing posts about mothers torturing their children to death, I really don't - there are a million other things I would rather do. But if you are going to keep making up fairy tales to support your position, I am going to keep making up horror stories to support mine.

So instead, lets stop making up stories and move on.

[Ventlimer]

Or woman doesn't initially want the kid, would have gotten an abortion. First month in, she turns her life around after deciding she wants the kid and stops drinking and actually takes the kid on her own. You know, the whole maternal bonding while kid is in the womb things is quite powerful.

Or she doesn't. Instead she subconsciously blames the child for all the extra expense she now has, so she starts to put lit cigarettes out on its skin, she runs the bath too hot and just throws the kid into it, regardless of the screams and crying, and she lets it sleep in a bed filled with piss and crap all night because she literally doesn't care if it lives or dies.

Look - we can go round and round on this for the rest of the time this repeal is at vote, and you are not going to convince me, and I am not going to convince you. So how about, instead, we just accept that each of us has a point and move on? Because while it might seem like I enjoy writing posts about mothers torturing their children to death, I really don't - there are a million other things I would rather do. But if you are going to keep making up fairy tales to support your position, I am going to keep making up horror stories to support mine.

So instead, lets stop making up stories and move on.

Easy for you to say while you have what you want- legalized abortion whether the nation likes it or not. Until such a time that this choice is left to the nations once more, it would be best for the prolife camp to keep at it.

[Separatist Peoples]

Ahem, I have written up a much more moderate alternative for GAR #286, one which I hope member nations will look at.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=420809

Don't pimp your drsfts in other players threads!

[United Massachusetts]

Ahem, I have written up a much more moderate alternative for GAR #286, one which I hope member nations will look at.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=420809

Don't pimp your drsfts in other players threads!

Forgive me

[West Phoenicia]

West Phoenicia firmly stands in support of this bill.

That is all we will say in the matter. You have those for and those against. Both sides rarely want to listen to each other. So shut off the merry go around and just vote. Both sides are valid even if you think the other side is evil for having their view.

[Calladan]

Or she doesn't. Instead she subconsciously blames the child for all the extra expense she now has, so she starts to put lit cigarettes out on its skin, she runs the bath too hot and just throws the kid into it, regardless of the screams and crying, and she lets it sleep in a bed filled with piss and crap all night because she literally doesn't care if it lives or dies.

Look - we can go round and round on this for the rest of the time this repeal is at vote, and you are not going to convince me, and I am not going to convince you. So how about, instead, we just accept that each of us has a point and move on? Because while it might seem like I enjoy writing posts about mothers torturing their children to death, I really don't - there are a million other things I would rather do. But if you are going to keep making up fairy tales to support your position, I am going to keep making up horror stories to support mine.

So instead, lets stop making up stories and move on.

Easy for you to say while you have what you want- legalized abortion whether the nation likes it or not. Until such a time that this choice is left to the nations once more, it would be best for the prolife camp to keep at it.

Horror stories for all it is.

[North Arkana]

Easy for you to say while you have what you want- legalized abortion whether the nation likes it or not. Until such a time that this choice is left to the nations once more, it would be best for the prolife camp to keep at it.

Horror stories for all it is.

We should make it illegal to have neighbors move in, they could be serial killers and demon possessed looking to kidnap and torture poor innocent god fearing citizens /S.

This delegation supports this notion that many arguments for the sake "morals" amount to nothing more than horror story peddling. Wonderful for penny dreadfuls, worthless for actual decision making.

[Calladan]

Horror stories for all it is.

We should make it illegal to have neighbors move in, they could be serial killers and demon possessed looking to kidnap and torture poor innocent god fearing citizens /S.

This delegation supports this notion that many arguments for the sake "morals" amount to nothing more than horror story peddling. Wonderful for penny dreadfuls, worthless for actual decision making.

That was kind of my point

[Thyerata]

Ahem, I have written up a much more moderate alternative for GAR #286, one which I hope member nations will look at.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=420809

Certainly we'll look at it. We notice it's written on paper, which will burn nicely in our personal incinerator.

[Solomons Land]

Abortion, at a fundamental sense is murder, you are reprimanding the ability of another being to live. Childbirth can be painful, both physically and mentally, and the parent can not always deal with the child, but there are other ways to handle such problems. The only curcumstanse abbortion should be legal is if the mother with die in the proses, in which case it is stand your ground.

[Nohen]

Ahem, I have written up a much more moderate alternative for GAR #286, one which I hope member nations will look at.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=420809

Why? GAR #286 is incredibly popular, and unless the pro-life nations suddenly gain 10,000 votes this repeal will fail. Why should we act like catering to a tiny fringe is "moderate"?

[Fauxia]

It does appeal to people other than conservatives,

Like who

I'm a libertarian. I support

[Fauxia]

"You heard it here first, folks. If you repeal GAR 286, you'll open the floodgates to these psychopaths!"

OOC: More importantly any and all attempts to relegate the reproductive decision to a bunch of retirement ready clergymen and politicians should be blocked like the abhorrent garbage it is.

"Geese the WA is a lost cause"