[DEFEATED] Int'l Service of Process

[Desmosthenes and Burke]

The Burkean ambassador has looked over the draft a few times. "We support the principle of this proposal, but we cannot support it as written, nor do we believe it could be brought to a form we could support without such substantial changes as to amount to an effective rewrite. We accept without reservation everything through operative clause 3. However we object strenuously to Operative clause 3, sub-clause A, as it would privilege foreign service above domestic service, as we do not permit only service in persona , ab agente, or in very limited circumstances actus manifestorum. Seeing as we would refuse to enforce any resulting judgment for lack of service, we see no point in mandating we allow someone to do so."

The ambassador paused. "Furthermore, we object to clauses 4 and 5 as contradictory to clause 3, at least for States such as our own where there is no domestic/foreign distinction in service. For civil service one either contacts a server licensed by the Burkean Courts and pays them to accomplish service (though we have no objection to licensing foreigners for this purpose), or they may appear before a baiulus of any court of general jurisdiction and, upon payment of the service fee, the baiulus with either serve process or cause it to be served. We see no reason why a foreigner should be able to circumvent such generally applicable fees, as would seem to be required by operative clause 5 of this proposal."

"Finally, we would suggest that it be made clear that service of process is an item that regards civil matters only."

[Separatist Peoples]

The Burkean ambassador has looked over the draft a few times. "We support the principle of this proposal, but we cannot support it as written, nor do we believe it could be brought to a form we could support without such substantial changes as to amount to an effective rewrite. We accept without reservation everything through operative clause 3. However we object strenuously to Operative clause 3, sub-clause A, as it would privilege foreign service above domestic service, as we do not permit only service in persona , ab agente, or in very limited circumstances actus manifestorum. Seeing as we would refuse to enforce any resulting judgment for lack of service, we see no point in mandating we allow someone to do so."

The ambassador paused. "Furthermore, we object to clauses 4 and 5 as contradictory to clause 3, at least for States such as our own where there is no domestic/foreign distinction in service. For civil service one either contacts a server licensed by the Burkean Courts and pays them to accomplish service (though we have no objection to licensing foreigners for this purpose), or they may appear before a baiulus of any court of general jurisdiction and, upon payment of the service fee, the baiulus with either serve process or cause it to be served. We see no reason why a foreigner should be able to circumvent such generally applicable fees, as would seem to be required by operative clause 5 of this proposal."

"Finally, we would suggest that it be made clear that service of process is an item that regards civil matters only."

"I've made some modest adjustments to accommodate your concerns, ambassador. Do you see anything else that might require attention?"

[Dragonslinding WA Mission]

Ser Aegon Snow: "We do understand such procedures. It is common that if an accused is not present at the issuance of a challenge to trial by combat that a summons to present themselves is issued. How that summons is issued is not of great importance, what matters is that one is issued should a challenged party not be present so as to either attend themselves or appoint a proxy.

"And if a challenge is insufficiently descriptive for the recipient to recognize the accusation, infraction, or time or date of the combat? Standardization is an effective tool to eliminate that issue."

Ser Aegon Snow: "There is no such problem in Dragonslund. If I say 'Ser So-and-So is a child rape-er and challange him to a trial by combat' if he is present the trial commences immediately. If said person is not present a literate person is found and a notice of challenge is sent to Ser So-and-So forthwith, at which time he shall present his choice as to time and place of answering the challenge or appointing a Proxy to stand for him. It is common for the elderly, royals, women to appoint proxies."

"However, that brings us back to how is this an international issue? Being challenged to a trial by combat by our King for insulting the Queen Mother is most likely not illegal in Whatever-stan, and we lack jurisdiction to compel the challenged to present themselves or to appoint a proxy.

"Trial by combat is but one method nations exert jurisdiction. If the person does not respond and they are outside of your effective jurisdiction, is there nothing else your people do? You don't seize property or assets?

Ser Aegon Snow: "If a person is challenged to trial by combat and they neither answer the charge nor appoint a proxy they automatically forfeit the trial. That is to say they are automatically considered to have effectively confessed that the charge is true. At which point relevant seizures of properties and assets takes place. In the case of insulting the Royal Family, which is treason, it would be a writ of attainder. Due to the customs of Dragonslund, it is highly unlikely that a foreigner would have a hereditary title, so it would in the case of a foreign wine merchant mean the seizure of all his gold and all his goods.

Of the two methods I know of to remedy the jurisdiction problem, both are assuredly going to result in an international indecent at least, and a war most likely.

"You skip to the two least effective opportunities? Lemme try something, then, as a nation who's military and technological advances makes yours look like sticks and rocks."
Bell hands Ser Snow a small wad of cash, mostly small change, in Greenbacks.
He clears his throat, "The Queen Mother is an addle-brained strumpet with as much honor as I discharge into the toilet in the morning. Now, are you going to pick a war or international incident (which, to the C.D.S.P. is measured only by less gunfire), or are you going to, say, hold onto that cash until such time as I face justice?

"Of course, if you don't tell me that I've broken the law and that I risk forfeiting that cash, it's just theft."

Ser Aegon Snow looks at these 'greenbacks'. "Shall I consider that this is a gift? These appear to be much more absorbent than Ser Dawrin's Princely Privy Papers.

"Insulting the Queen Mother in this building, is no crime in Dragonslund. Where something happens is as important as what happens. I stand by saying that this is not an international issue which should have been self-evident as not all member states have the same offenses or same types of offenses, let alone similar legal procedures. As for this--cash did you call it--is it supposed to be some form of money? This contains no silver, or gold, or copper for that matter, it is hardly money.

"For the record I agree with you the Queen Mother is an addle-brained strumpet whose main accomplishment is to not have died in child birth. After all she is the reason I'm here and not acting as Hand of the King like I did for His Majesty's father for nearly twenty years. But I know why she did that, her younger brother, the current Hand is a simpleton who is easily controlled by her. Our quarrels are legendary, I can only assume I'm here and not being used as a castle decoration because to kill me would likely anger more than a few Great Houses, and the North in particular."

Having a resolution requiring member states to push parchment around does not alleviate that issue, in fact may even exacerbate it. I'm going to go out on a limb here, Ambassador, and assume that your intention is not to have Dragonslinding Armies marching into member states, melting their city walls with dragonfyre, pillaging their fields and storehouses, and terrorizing their citizens because some foreign wine merchant bit his thumb in the general direction of one of our nobles and said noble demands satisfaction."

"In the alternative, I won't accommodate a nation who sees no lesser option than war to settle differences, since the vast majority of nations aren't so primitive or extreme.

"In the second alternative, you could notice that this requires very little effort on your part, saves you a lot of grief, and is applicable to most other nations, for whom this is, in fact, an international issue."

Ser Aegon Snow: "We did not expect you to accommodate us. While we would argue that we are not very primative at all, nor are we that extreme. In fact I would say we are rather advanced and civilized. After all..." Ser Aegon points to the greenbacks. "We do not use anal cleaning tissue for currency. I shall leave this matter to Maester Tarquin as he seems to be the one keen to understand it, after which time, should it come to queue the delegation shall take an internal vote as to our response to it."

Ser Aegon Snow storms out of the room.

Maester Tarquin: "I think that Ser Snow believes that it is prudent to oppose proposals that he does not understand, I'm not sure that the reasons for which he does not understanding a proposal are relevant. Though with this proposal, I think it more likely a failure to understand based on his profession, he has not studied law or legal procedures of Dragonslund much less of foreign countries; instead most of his adult life has been concerned with sword and spear and whom to point those sharp pointy bits of metal at. Such is the nature of being a knight of the realm. It possibly doesn't help that much of what passes for law in Dragonslund is less legislation and more long established custom, many of which are incomprehensible to foreigners.

"Caution I understand, Maester. A refusal to understand is not."

Maester Tarquin: "I would argue that in Ser Aegon's case it isn't so much a refusal as it is an inability. Make no mistake, I am by no means saying that he is stupid or otherwise insulting his person. Rather as I have pointed out, Ser Aegon tends to think in terms of arms and armies rather than diplomacy and legalities. Dragonslinding society is divided into four distinct classes: Those who fight (like Ser Aegon and Ser Dawrin), those who work (like Wench and Ser Dawrin's 'paper-reclaimer corps--as he calls them'), those who study (like myself), and those who prey (which this delegation does not have at the moment--there hasn't been an important enough septon or septa to anger the Queen Mother yet to be sent to the WA Mission, I doubt we'd get any godi-s or godas unless worship of the Old Gods suddenly becomes popular outside of the North).

"Our instructions from the Crown are to err on the side of caution. As a former Hand, to the late king may the gods grant him rest, Ser Snow likely takes it as his sworn duty to consistently err on caution. We would welcome a line by line explanation of the proposal. This may also lead to greater general understanding by less military minded dignitaries as well."

"I will happily provide it, Maester."

Maester Tarquin: "Excellent, if you convince me I may be able to temper the decision by the delegation as my primary responsibility is to prepare the legal codices for the Compliance Commission."

1. Service of process is defined as the procedure by which a party to legal action gives notice of the initialization of legal action to another party, so as to enable that party to respond to the proceeding before the judicial body.

"A definition of the concept of service of process. It is not conditioned to international service, but it is just a definition."

Maester Tarquin: "I see. Definitions are sticky things with both of our knights, though typically Ser Dawrin is more inclined to listen to me than Ser Aegon. Provided that this resolution doesn't impact Ser Dawrin in sodomizing his squire, hiring serfs to recycle waste paper or being a self-important and insulting arsehole he is likely to come down on my side. Ser Aegon has become more curmudgeonly since the passing of his wife, I believe he has a backup of--ah--fluids. One wouldn't think that he would have such a problem at his age, but he is in both good health and if his 10 children are taken into consideration, quite virile."

2. Member states shall allow the service of process from other member states upon persons within their jurisdiction, provided it contains, at minimum:

"The portion of this root which qualifies international action is underlined. Based on the construction of tabulated lists, the subparts of this are, naturally, so qualified."

Maester Tarquin: "Good, good."

3. Member states must allow service of process if the method by which it is sent is reasonable. A method is reasonable if it is the same or substantially similar to the method used by the host nation for the same or similar purposes.

a. Service of process by a foreign jurisdiction through post shall always be considered reasonable.

"Since the measure of service of process here is against the member state's national standard, the implication is obviously that the service of process allowed is international. The subclause below qualifies it pretty clearly."

Maester Tarquin: "This passage by 'post' do you mean a written summons delivered by a messenger or by a trained animal, say perhaps a pigeon or raven?"

4. Where service of process cannot be accomplished through post, member states must either:

"No qualification here, but it's the root of a clause, and there are two stems. Let's look!"

a. Allow agents of a foreign court entry into their nation and provide sufficient assistance to allow the agent to serve process upon recipient party, or

"International action reference underlined."

Maester Tarquin: "Could 'sufficient assistance' be interpreted to mean the capture and removal of the accused to the jurisdiction wherein a trial, would take place? For example if a Mister X was accused of Crime A in Dragonslund and absconds to Whatever-stan, and he not respond to a sent written message could Dragonslund send a detachment to capture and remove Mister X from Whatever-stan to Dragonslund to face his accuser provided that requisite permissions and notifications are given to the government of Whatever-stan?"

b. Dispatch an agent of their own court to serve process upon the recipient party on the foreign jurisdiction’s behalf. 5. Member states may require foreign court agents to bear the cost of their own travel and service, but may not demand compensation from the foreign jurisdiction for the costs of serving process where the foreign agents were barred entry pursuant to subparagraph 4.b.

"International action references underlined. The qualification is pretty clearly for international action."

Maester Tarquin: "What exactly does 'agent of their own court' mean? It is my understanding that in many member nations this would mean a Maester of Laws or Lawyer I believe is the title in other nations, but in Dragonslund could be considered a squad of Kingsguard or similar military order.

"In Dragonslund, the costs of capture and apprehension would be determined by the outcome of the trial. I see no reason why the Crown couldn't front the money and then be reimbursed but I would need to consult with our Master of Coin on this matter."

6. Member states may require that foreign service of process efforts comport with their own jurisdictional requirements where such requirements do not conflict with or frustrate the purpose of service of process and comport with international law.

"A requirement on member states which refers specifically to the foreign service of other courts outside their own. An international action."

Maester Tarquin: "I see. While I don't disagree that this is an international section, perhaps you could explain it. What exactly is meant by 'may require that foreign service of process efforts comport with their own jurisdictional requirements'? Returning to our Mister X example, let us suppose that Whatever-stan requires that they also be accused of a crime in that nation first prior to being delivered to Dragonslund to answer their accusation there. It would be possible that Mister X could stay indefinitely in Whatever-stan safe from prosecution in Dragonslund provided he remained within the bounds of their laws. Or am I completely misunderstanding something?"

7. No provisions herein shall be construed as to require member states submit to extradition requirements or the adjudication of foreign entities, except where required by international law, nor shall be construed to apply to the jurisdictions of nonmember states.

"And here, the proposal promises to not interfere with your legal jurisdiction or extradition. Which, frankly, should be your favorite part of this proposal.

"Ambassador, as you can see, this proposal covers a very narrow part of the judicial process: Notice. It covers it in such a way that recognizes the increasingly globalized nature of travel and business. Even if your nation does not struggle with these issues, most nations without closed borders do. Further, this allows your nation to satisfy the necessary due process requirements that you are, as I recall, required to provide with relative ease when an individual is no longer in your in your nation, but nonetheless has broken your laws."

Maester Tarquin: "Our borders are not closed actually. Rater our nation fully encompasses a continent and the smaller islands surrounding it so fleeing to a foreign nation is substantially more difficult for those who are accused of crimes in Dragonslund. By and large leaving the Crown's jurisdiction, and the agents of that jurisdiction--the Wardens of the Provinces--require the use of a ship at the very least. For the Small folk of course there is few places where they can go, while the nobility are more likely to answer a summons as a matter of honor. The loss of their honor eventually resulting in a lack of marriage opportunities and eventual extinction of a house.

"Provided that this resolution in no way would prevent the Crown from pursuing extradition treaties with member and non-member states, on its own, we have little cause to object. I hope that if/when this makes it to the voting floor that Ser Aegon has sufficiently cooled off so as to allow me to get him to see reason."

[Desmosthenes and Burke]

"I've made some modest adjustments to accommodate your concerns, ambassador. Do you see anything else that might require attention?"

"Our concerns have been more than adequately addressed, thank you. We are actually quite pleased to see that the ambassador was able to allay them through fairly modest changes. Consider us also suitably impressed with the ambassador's drafting skill. We are certain someone will find a ridiculous loophole, but, that sadly seems to be a competitive sport amongst some States."

[Greater Gilead]

We support this, however I have to wonder just how many drinks the ambassador had before drafting this. Overall, I think this is a great idea.

- Sheridan Baldwin

[Separatist Peoples]

OOC: I have been considering a category change for this. It strikes me that the overwhelming majority of international cases will be breach of contract cases, and that the availability of legal remedy promotes free trade by reducing the risk of parties to suffer by the fraud of others. The inclusion of a reference to business entities should frame this better for that category. I'd appreciate some feedback on that aspect.

[Desmosthenes and Burke]

OOC: I have been considering a category change for this. It strikes me that the overwhelming majority of international cases will be breach of contract cases, and that the availability of legal remedy promotes free trade by reducing the risk of parties to suffer by the fraud of others. The inclusion of a reference to business entities should frame this better for that category. I'd appreciate some feedback on that aspect.

OOC: This is anecdotal, but most service of process issues my firm runs into are for commercial actions (though about a third is intellectual property related instead of breach of contract [because they draft their contracts badly]). The very distant runner up is family law. I do the drafting and translating usually, but I can also state that experience shows it is usually the American clients who have both the most problems and the least success. IRL I could never imagine the EU or China agreeing to this proposal. The knee jerk reaction from the authorities here in Chengdu is usually "we refuse requests from America on general principle.".

That said, I would imagine that throughout the world commercial transactions are the most likely area for international legal disputes.

[Separatist Peoples]

OOC: I have been considering a category change for this. It strikes me that the overwhelming majority of international cases will be breach of contract cases, and that the availability of legal remedy promotes free trade by reducing the risk of parties to suffer by the fraud of others. The inclusion of a reference to business entities should frame this better for that category. I'd appreciate some feedback on that aspect.

OOC: This is anecdotal, but most service of process issues my firm runs into are for commercial actions (though about a third is intellectual property related). The very distant runner up is family law. I do the drafting and translating usually, but I can also state that experience shows it is usually the American clients who have both the most problems and the least success. IRL I could never imagine the EU or China agreeing to this proposal. The knee jerk reaction from the authorities here in Chengdu is usually "we refuse requests from America on general principle.".

OOC: That's likely because US contract law is much different than most countries, and Americans have an unfortunate tendency to believe that their way is the universal approach. It is an unfortunate tendency my compatriots have, and one I myself am often guilty of.

I realize that the knee-jerk reaction is to refuse requests on principal. And that's ok. This proposal is not trying to extend jurisdiction, but ensuring that notice of lawsuits can be accomplished at all. The idea is that businesses and individuals can, having been served, go to an attorney (or act themselves, as permitted) and tell the foreign jurisdiction to suck it or respond. You can't do that if you were never given notice in the first place.

[Bruke]

Ambassador Nega: "Our country does not have a service of process for international matters, could you suggest guidelines for us and other states to follow to create a process that is compliant with this proposal?"

[Separatist Peoples]

Ambassador Nega: "Our country does not have a service of process for international matters, could you suggest guidelines for us and other states to follow to create a process that is compliant with this proposal?"

"Probably a rough carbon copy of your domestic version should do."

[Desmosthenes and Burke]

OOC: That's likely because US contract law is much different than most countries, and Americans have an unfortunate tendency to believe that their way is the universal approach. It is an unfortunate tendency my compatriots have, and one I myself am often guilty of.

I realize that the knee-jerk reaction is to refuse requests on principal. And that's ok. This proposal is not trying to extend jurisdiction, but ensuring that notice of lawsuits can be accomplished at all. The idea is that businesses and individuals can, having been served, go to an attorney (or act themselves, as permitted) and tell the foreign jurisdiction to suck it or respond. You can't do that if you were never given notice in the first place.

OOC: I started to write a longer response and stopped myself, seeing as threadjacking is frowned upon. Let us leave it at Americans rarely bother reading the Hague Convention, much less China's reservations and compliance process, and are therefore surprised it takes 6 to 9 months, and that they usually get refused for failure to comply. Telegram me if you actually WANT to hear about this mess.

Also, just in case it was not clear, I was intended to support the category change and focus on commercial aspects.

[Separatist Peoples]

"Any last thoughts?"

[New Mushroom Kingdom]

"The government of the New Mushroom Kingdom has no objections and supports this draft proposal."

[Bananaistan]

"While we do not object to the general principle, the People's Republic of Bananaistan remains opposed to the details. In particular we are still concerned that there could be "wild goose chases" going in several different jurisdictions when the exact location of a "defendant" is unknown and the woolly requirement in section 8 that member states must go around assessing which "business associations and entities" are "reasonably likely to be subject" to such nonsense is completely off the wall and a gross overreach of WA power. We do not wish to waste valuable civil servant's time on make such determinations.

"We also note that it is not explicitly stated that the plaintiff or their home nation must bear the costs of the wild goose chases."

- Ted

[Separatist Peoples]

"While we do not object to the general principle, the People's Republic of Bananaistan remains opposed to the details. In particular we are still concerned that there could be "wild goose chases" going in several different jurisdictions when the exact location of a "defendant" is unknown and the woolly requirement in section 8 that member states must go around assessing which "business associations and entities" are "reasonably likely to be subject" to such nonsense is completely off the wall and a gross overreach of WA power. We do not wish to waste valuable civil servant's time on make such determinations.

"We also note that it is not explicitly stated that the plaintiff or their home nation must bear the costs of the wild goose chases."

- Ted

"If the exact location of the defendant is unknown, then I imagine your government and others have contingencies for adequate process. The C.D.S.P., for example, permits service of process by posting in local newspapers where no alternate method exists. If your nation has no sufficient alternative, the fault lies with the Bananamen, not the proposal. Need we really hold your hand?"

[Herby]

”Need we really hold your hand?"

Gee I dunno Benny, you an’ Teddy do make a cute couple. Okay okay I know shhhh.

[Bananaistan]

"While we do not object to the general principle, the People's Republic of Bananaistan remains opposed to the details. In particular we are still concerned that there could be "wild goose chases" going in several different jurisdictions when the exact location of a "defendant" is unknown and the woolly requirement in section 8 that member states must go around assessing which "business associations and entities" are "reasonably likely to be subject" to such nonsense is completely off the wall and a gross overreach of WA power. We do not wish to waste valuable civil servant's time on make such determinations.

"We also note that it is not explicitly stated that the plaintiff or their home nation must bear the costs of the wild goose chases."

- Ted

"If the exact location of the defendant is unknown, then I imagine your government and others have contingencies for adequate process. The C.D.S.P., for example, permits service of process by posting in local newspapers where no alternate method exists. If your nation has no sufficient alternative, the fault lies with the Bananamen, not the proposal. Need we really hold your hand?"

"So you're not going to bother addressing the substance of the argument? You haven't debunked either claim here and made no reply at all about clause 8? It's wooly nonsense!

"Also that damn car is disturbing."

- Ted

[Separatist Peoples]

"If the exact location of the defendant is unknown, then I imagine your government and others have contingencies for adequate process. The C.D.S.P., for example, permits service of process by posting in local newspapers where no alternate method exists. If your nation has no sufficient alternative, the fault lies with the Bananamen, not the proposal. Need we really hold your hand?"

"So you're not going to bother addressing the substance of the argument? You haven't debunked either claim here and made no reply at all about clause 8? It's wooly nonsense!

"Also that damn car is disturbing."

- Ted

"Ambassador, I don't think I need to address them. Those are all concerns a nation can deal with at a domestic level, as they are unique to the disposition of a particular state. You've brought grapes to the table when I'm making a beef stew."

[Bananaistan]

"So you're not going to bother addressing the substance of the argument? You haven't debunked either claim here and made no reply at all about clause 8? It's wooly nonsense!

"Also that damn car is disturbing."

- Ted

"Ambassador, I don't think I need to address them. Those are all concerns a nation can deal with at a domestic level, as they are unique to the disposition of a particular state. You've brought grapes to the table when I'm making a beef stew."

"Poo. Grapes are a cromulent ingredient for beef stew. The problem I have is why are we being forced to assess whether everyone likes beef stew or not."

[Separatist Peoples]

"Ambassador, I don't think I need to address them. Those are all concerns a nation can deal with at a domestic level, as they are unique to the disposition of a particular state. You've brought grapes to the table when I'm making a beef stew."

"Poo. Grapes are a cromulent ingredient for beef stew. The problem I have is why are we being forced to assess whether everyone likes beef stew or not."

"I truly cannot extend this metaphor any further. An international standard for service of process reduces the risk of doing business abroad, as it ensures that there is an opportunity to pursue legal recourse after a breach."

[Araraukar]

OOC: Given that proposal titles can now be longer, I would suggest changing "Int'l" into "International".

EDIT: Seriously, fingers? That short a sentence and you make me typo twice?

[Novo Razcon]

10. Bans abortions, nuclear weapons, bodily sovereignty, national sovereignty, and weaponized cats.

Novo Razcon cannot possibly oppose a resolution any more than this one. Its reason is self-explanatory.

[Separatist Peoples]

10. Bans abortions, nuclear weapons, bodily sovereignty, national sovereignty, and weaponized cats.

Novo Razcon cannot possibly oppose a resolution any more than this one. Its reason is self-explanatory.

"Novo Razcon clearly doesn't get humor."

[Araraukar]

"Novo Razcon clearly doesn't get humor."

"Trying to ban weaponized cats is a serious matter," Johan said, petting a white Persian cat that had hopped onto his lap. "Every cat-owner knows that cats are always weaponized and have the ability to launch a surprise attack for no reason."

[Imperium Anglorum]

"Novo Razcon clearly doesn't get humor."

"Trying to ban weaponized cats is a serious matter," Johan said, petting a white Persian cat that had hopped onto his lap. "Every cat-owner knows that cats are always weaponized and have the ability to launch a surprise attack for no reason."

As my distinguished colleague noted yesterday, "Very dangerous, those housecats... You never know if they're about to turn on you".