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by Bananaistan » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:19 am
by Separatist Peoples » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:25 am
Bananaistan wrote:"So let me get this straight, because some summonses in Bananaistan are issued in person by agents of the plaintiff, we are to throw open our borders to any Tom, Dick or Harry carrying such a document from anywhere in the WA? And not only that, we have to help them track down the target if they don't have an address for them? What if they have no idea where the target is? You could end up having state employees of several countries running around on wild goose chases."
The Egyptian Pharocracial Suzerainty wrote:Separatist Peoples wrote:2. Member states shall allow the service of process from other member states upon persons within their jurisdiction
No.
Next!Separatist Peoples wrote:4. Where service of process cannot be accomplished through post, member states must either:a. Allow agents of a foreign court entry into their nation and provide sufficient assistance to allow the agent to serve process upon recipient party
No.
Opposed.
by Bananaistan » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:29 am
Separatist Peoples wrote:Bananaistan wrote:"So let me get this straight, because some summonses in Bananaistan are issued in person by agents of the plaintiff, we are to throw open our borders to any Tom, Dick or Harry carrying such a document from anywhere in the WA? And not only that, we have to help them track down the target if they don't have an address for them? What if they have no idea where the target is? You could end up having state employees of several countries running around on wild goose chases."
"How far you are willing to send agents of your court is up to you, ambassador. Nothing prevents nations from placing reasonable restrictions on how far they will send their own agents."
by Separatist Peoples » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:41 am
Bananaistan wrote:Separatist Peoples wrote:"How far you are willing to send agents of your court is up to you, ambassador. Nothing prevents nations from placing reasonable restrictions on how far they will send their own agents."
"I'm only talking about going as far as their own borders. Let's say, X commences legal proceedings against Y in Nation A. As far as anyone knows, Y could be currently located in any of the ten countries between B and K. My point is that agents of each of these countries will be running around within their own counties looking for Y. And possibly only because he failed to pay a parking fine."
by Bananaistan » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:54 am
Allow agents of a foreign court entry into their nation and provide sufficient assistance to allow the agent to serve process upon recipient party,
by Separatist Peoples » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:12 pm
Bananaistan wrote:Allow agents of a foreign court entry into their nation and provide sufficient assistance to allow the agent to serve process upon recipient party,
"Ahem. I believe there is something that says a nation must pursue them.
"And there is still the issue that the matter may be as insignificant as an unpaid parking fine or some form of vexatious litigation. There should be some threshold of reasonableness below which there should be no obligation on a member state to assist.
by Bananaistan » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:38 pm
by Separatist Peoples » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:52 pm
Bananaistan wrote:“The wording is not vague at all. It specifically says “provide sufficient assistance to allow” them to serve the notice. If they can’t find them and they can’t serve the notice, then you haven’t provided the sufficient assistance. It doesn’t provide some assistance which might allow them serve notice.”
by Separatist Peoples » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:27 am
by Fauxia » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:54 pm
by Separatist Peoples » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:59 pm
Fauxia wrote:“Against, because I don’t really give a damn, to be frank.”
by Fauxia » Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:14 pm
Nick: “Because he is a loudmouth.”
by Separatist Peoples » Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:16 pm
Fauxia wrote:Nick: “Because he is a loudmouth.”Separatist Peoples wrote:"Then why did you take the time to be against it and announce as much?"
Corwin, likely not sober: “In actuality, the most excellent representatives of the august nation of Fauxia and all her colonies and all her sattelite states, in accordance with her grand government, the only government in all of God’s universe with legitimate claims to the world opposes this legislation due to the obvious fact that the issue that this proposal attempts to address is not important enough for the enormous, immoral, illegitimate bureaucracy known as the General Assembly of the Assembly of the World to extend its most dirty hand into. It is, in the grand and fully legitimate opinion of the only government in all of God’s universe that has been recognized by the true God, and his queen, Violet, that this is an act that overreaches the correct amount of power that the General Assembly of the Assembly of the World deserves; that being defined, very little. It is a handicap on a government’s rightful ability to legislate for itself, as its own, semi-legitimate (though not as legitimate as the nation of Fauxia, and all her colonies and all her sattelite states, hence being “semi-legitimate”) government. Now that this has been defined, we pray to God that you understand the only legitimate government’s opposition. Due to our legitimacy, that which stems from divine approval, we instruct all nations to join with benevolent Fauxia and oppose this legislation.” He collapses to the ground.
by Fauxia » Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:20 pm
Nick: “Will do.”Separatist Peoples wrote:Fauxia wrote:Nick: “Because he is a loudmouth.”
Corwin, likely not sober: “In actuality, the most excellent representatives of the august nation of Fauxia and all her colonies and all her sattelite states, in accordance with her grand government, the only government in all of God’s universe with legitimate claims to the world opposes this legislation due to the obvious fact that the issue that this proposal attempts to address is not important enough for the enormous, immoral, illegitimate bureaucracy known as the General Assembly of the Assembly of the World to extend its most dirty hand into. It is, in the grand and fully legitimate opinion of the only government in all of God’s universe that has been recognized by the true God, and his queen, Violet, that this is an act that overreaches the correct amount of power that the General Assembly of the Assembly of the World deserves; that being defined, very little. It is a handicap on a government’s rightful ability to legislate for itself, as its own, semi-legitimate (though not as legitimate as the nation of Fauxia, and all her colonies and all her sattelite states, hence being “semi-legitimate”) government. Now that this has been defined, we pray to God that you understand the only legitimate government’s opposition. Due to our legitimacy, that which stems from divine approval, we instruct all nations to join with benevolent Fauxia and oppose this legislation.” He collapses to the ground.
"...when he wakes up, point out the implicit international scope of the proposal and give him an alka-seltzer."
by Dragonslinding WA Mission » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:51 pm
1. Service of process is defined as the procedure by which a party to legal action gives notice of the initialization of legal action to another party, so as to enable that party to respond to the proceeding before the judicial body.
by States of Glory WA Office » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:52 pm
by Separatist Peoples » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:46 pm
Dragonslinding WA Mission wrote:1. Service of process is defined as the procedure by which a party to legal action gives notice of the initialization of legal action to another party, so as to enable that party to respond to the proceeding before the judicial body.
Ser Aegon Snow: "Not an international issue, opposed."
States of Glory WA Office wrote:Neville: Does anything in GA #73 a.k.a. International Postal Union actually require member states to establish a postal service? If not, we're not sure that Clause 3a is all that desirable.
by States of Glory WA Office » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:50 pm
Separatist Peoples wrote:States of Glory WA Office wrote:Neville: Does anything in GA #73 a.k.a. International Postal Union actually require member states to establish a postal service? If not, we're not sure that Clause 3a is all that desirable.
"Since there are alternatives built in, I'm inclined to leave it as a fail-safe. Post is generally common."
by Dragonslinding WA Mission » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:54 pm
by Separatist Peoples » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:36 am
Dragonslinding WA Mission wrote:Separatist Peoples wrote:"This is literally about facilitating due process across international borders. How can it not be an international issue?"
Ser Aegon Snow: "In no part of that definition does it explicitly state that this applies to cases brought internationally. Until such time as it does, it would as a consequence apply to all cases in member states. Since not all member states have similar judicial proceedings it is an imposition by the WA on member states.
Member states shall allow the service of process from other member states upon persons within their jurisdiction, provided it contains, at minimum:
"Tell me, lets suppose Person A in Dragonslund brings an accusation of a crime against Person B in Country X. Person A demands trial by combat, Country X does not recognize such forms of trial. What then? And if say Person C and Person D in Dragonslund have a dispute, and trial by ordeal is considered approprate, what business is it of the WA."
by Dragonslinding WA Mission » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:24 am
by Separatist Peoples » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:26 pm
Dragonslinding WA Mission wrote:Ser Aegon Snow: "We are not going to pretend to be a Maester of Laws. However we are not convinced. By and large Dragonslund does not waste its time with litigation, we leave most judicial matters to trial by combat or trial by ordeal. In such case as the combat or ordeal is declined, including combat by proxy, the accused is automatically assumed to have admitted to whatever it is that they were accused of. Punishment varies from fines for minor issues to execution with attainder for major ones.
"We are not convinced that the definition does not require to be explicitly international in scope. The phrase 'service of process' smells to us of being lawyerish jargon and we do not believe that many ambassadors are by profession Maesters of Laws and as such an assumption of common understanding is not possible.
"We remain opposed."
by Dragonslinding WA Mission » Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:27 am
Separatist Peoples wrote:"Ambassador, I ask this with no intention of being rude, but do you understand the role service of process has in a trial? You do realize that this occurs prior to any trial and is not itself a determination of guilt or fact. It is literally the process by which a person is made aware of a legal challenge. It would serve the same place as your challenge to combat, albeit in paper form."
"Ambassador, if you would like, I could take you, line by line, through this and explain how this is an incorrect interpretation born of your specialty involving being on either end of swung bits of metal and not of legal understanding. If you are unwilling to make a genuine effort to understand what you're opposing, I don't see why I should seriously consider your opposition or the factors behind it."
by Clean Land » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:44 am
Dragonslinding WA Mission wrote:Separatist Peoples wrote:"Ambassador, I ask this with no intention of being rude, but do you understand the role service of process has in a trial? You do realize that this occurs prior to any trial and is not itself a determination of guilt or fact. It is literally the process by which a person is made aware of a legal challenge. It would serve the same place as your challenge to combat, albeit in paper form."
Ser Aegon Snow: "We do understand such procedures. It is common that if an accused is not present at the issuance of a challenge to trial by combat that a summons to present themselves is issued. How that summons is issued is not of great importance, what matters is that one is issued should a challenged party not be present so as to either attend themselves or appoint a proxy.
"However, that brings us back to how is this an international issue? Being challenged to a trial by combat by our King for insulting the Queen Mother is most likely not illegal in Whatever-stan, and we lack jurisdiction to compel the challenged to present themselves or to appoint a proxy. Of the two methods I know of to remedy the jurisdiction problem, both are assuredly going to result in an international indecent at least, and a war most likely. Having a resolution requiring member states to push parchment around does not alleviate that issue, in fact may even exacerbate it. I'm going to go out on a limb here, Ambassador, and assume that your intention is not to have Dragonslinding Armies marching into member states, melting their city walls with dragonfyre, pillaging their fields and storehouses, and terrorizing their citizens because some foreign wine merchant bit his thumb in the general direction of one of our nobles and said noble demands satisfaction.""Ambassador, if you would like, I could take you, line by line, through this and explain how this is an incorrect interpretation born of your specialty involving being on either end of swung bits of metal and not of legal understanding. If you are unwilling to make a genuine effort to understand what you're opposing, I don't see why I should seriously consider your opposition or the factors behind it."
Maester Tarquin: "I think that Ser Snow believes that it is prudent to oppose proposals that he does not understand, I'm not sure that the reasons for which he does not understanding a proposal are relevant. Though with this proposal, I think it more likely a failure to understand based on his profession, he has not studied law or legal procedures of Dragonslund much less of foreign countries; instead most of his adult life has been concerned with sword and spear and whom to point those sharp pointy bits of metal at. Such is the nature of being a knight of the realm. It possibly doesn't help that much of what passes for law in Dragonslund is less legislation and more long established custom, many of which are incomprehensible to foreigners.
"Our instructions from the Crown are to err on the side of caution. As a former Hand, to the late king may the gods grant him rest, Ser Snow likely takes it as his sworn duty to consistently err on caution. We would welcome a line by line explanation of the proposal. This may also lead to greater general understanding by less military minded dignitaries as well."
by Separatist Peoples » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:43 am
Dragonslinding WA Mission wrote:Ser Aegon Snow: "We do understand such procedures. It is common that if an accused is not present at the issuance of a challenge to trial by combat that a summons to present themselves is issued. How that summons is issued is not of great importance, what matters is that one is issued should a challenged party not be present so as to either attend themselves or appoint a proxy.
"However, that brings us back to how is this an international issue? Being challenged to a trial by combat by our King for insulting the Queen Mother is most likely not illegal in Whatever-stan, and we lack jurisdiction to compel the challenged to present themselves or to appoint a proxy.
Of the two methods I know of to remedy the jurisdiction problem, both are assuredly going to result in an international indecent at least, and a war most likely.
Having a resolution requiring member states to push parchment around does not alleviate that issue, in fact may even exacerbate it. I'm going to go out on a limb here, Ambassador, and assume that your intention is not to have Dragonslinding Armies marching into member states, melting their city walls with dragonfyre, pillaging their fields and storehouses, and terrorizing their citizens because some foreign wine merchant bit his thumb in the general direction of one of our nobles and said noble demands satisfaction."
Maester Tarquin: "I think that Ser Snow believes that it is prudent to oppose proposals that he does not understand, I'm not sure that the reasons for which he does not understanding a proposal are relevant. Though with this proposal, I think it more likely a failure to understand based on his profession, he has not studied law or legal procedures of Dragonslund much less of foreign countries; instead most of his adult life has been concerned with sword and spear and whom to point those sharp pointy bits of metal at. Such is the nature of being a knight of the realm. It possibly doesn't help that much of what passes for law in Dragonslund is less legislation and more long established custom, many of which are incomprehensible to foreigners.
"Our instructions from the Crown are to err on the side of caution. As a former Hand, to the late king may the gods grant him rest, Ser Snow likely takes it as his sworn duty to consistently err on caution. We would welcome a line by line explanation of the proposal. This may also lead to greater general understanding by less military minded dignitaries as well."
1. Service of process is defined as the procedure by which a party to legal action gives notice of the initialization of legal action to another party, so as to enable that party to respond to the proceeding before the judicial body.
2. Member states shall allow the service of process from other member states upon persons within their jurisdiction, provided it contains, at minimum:
3. Member states must allow service of process if the method by which it is sent is reasonable. A method is reasonable if it is the same or substantially similar to the method used by the host nation for the same or similar purposes.
a. Service of process by a foreign jurisdiction through post shall always be considered reasonable.
4. Where service of process cannot be accomplished through post, member states must either:
a. Allow agents of a foreign court entry into their nation and provide sufficient assistance to allow the agent to serve process upon recipient party, or
b. Dispatch an agent of their own court to serve process upon the recipient party on the foreign jurisdiction’s behalf. 5. Member states may require foreign court agents to bear the cost of their own travel and service, but may not demand compensation from the foreign jurisdiction for the costs of serving process where the foreign agents were barred entry pursuant to subparagraph 4.b.
6. Member states may require that foreign service of process efforts comport with their own jurisdictional requirements where such requirements do not conflict with or frustrate the purpose of service of process and comport with international law.
7. No provisions herein shall be construed as to require member states submit to extradition requirements or the adjudication of foreign entities, except where required by international law, nor shall be construed to apply to the jurisdictions of nonmember states.
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