[DEFEATED] Condemn The Order of the Grey Wardens

[Frisbeeteria]

Category: Condemnation
Nominee: The Order of the Grey Wardens

Version 3 (most recent):

The Security Council,

Concerned by the actions of The Order of the Grey Wardens, also known as The Grey Wardens and TGW, a supposedly defender group, that has undertaken seemingly hypocritical actions in recent history, part of a pattern dating back to the occupation of Madrigal, including the following,

• The attempted invasion of Femdom Empire, and the attempted displacement of its natives.
• The invasion of Super Reich I.
• The numerous unprovoked actions against Kaiserreich, in particular, the puppeteering of Kurnugia.
• The invasion of Warzone Europe, starting a wholly unwarranted conflict with its protector, Equilism.

Furthermore concerned that The Grey Wardens frequently poach nations from the raider and invader regions they publicly decry.

Shocked that when these actions were pointed out, The Grey Wardens denied such claims, calling them “fake news.”

Noting that as a member of CAIN, The Grey Wardens have abused the organization as a tool to take absurd positions, for the sole purpose of mislabeling their enemies as members of an extreme ideology under the guise of interregional cooperation to gain more raiding targets.

Observing the possibility of other such, and even more depraved and hypocritical actions.

Hereby Condemns The Order of The Grey Wardens.

Version 2:

The Security Council,

Concerned by the actions of The Order of the Grey Wardens, also known as The Grey Wardens and TGW, a supposedly defender group, that has undertaken seemingly hypocritical actions in recent history, including the following,

• The attempted invasion of Femdom Empire, and the attempted displacement of its natives.
• The invasion of Super Reich I.
• The numerous unprovoked actions against Kaiserreich.
• The invasion of Warzone Europe, starting a wholly unwarranted conflict with its protector, Equilism.

Shocked that when these actions were pointed out, The Grey Wardens denied such claims, calling them “fake news.”

Noting that as a member of CAIN, The Grey Wardens have abused the organization as a tool to take absurd positions, for the sole purpose of mislabeling their enemies as members of an extreme ideology under the guise of interregional cooperation to gain more raiding targets.

Observing the possibility of other such, and even more depraved and hypocritical actions.

Hereby Condemns The Order of The Grey Wardens.

Version 1:

The Security Council,

Concerned by the actions of The Order of the Grey Wardens, also known as The Grey Wardens and TGW, a supposedly defender group, that has undertaken seemingly hypocritical actions in recent history, including the following,

• The attempted invasion of Femdom Empire, and the attempted displacement of its natives.
• The invasion of Super Reich I.
• The numerous unprovoked actions against Kaiserreich.
• The invasion of Warzone Europe, starting a wholly unwarranted conflict with its protector, Equilism.

Shocked that when these actions were pointed out, The Grey Wardens denied such claims, calling them “fake news.”

Noting that as a member of CAIN, The Grey Wardens have used the organization as a tool to take extreme and absurd positions, for the sole purpose of punishing their enemies under the guise of interregional cooperation.

Observing the possibility of other such, and even more depraved and hypocritical actions.

Hereby Condemns The Order of The Grey Wardens.

Changelog:
Version 3: Added details about how the Wardens poach what they call "darkspawn" (Didn't call it that in the proposal though), and Kurnugia.
Version 2: Rewrote the CAIN bit.
Version 1: The origina;

[Anarcha Feminist Gynarchy]

I like it. They are just raiders. I also have noticed they have worked with MT Army in raids

[Kitzerland]

Concerned by the actions of The Order of the Grey Wardens, also known as The Grey Wardens and TGW,

We get it, you're talking about the Wardens.

The numerous unprovoked actions against Kaiserreich.

They're involved in Anti Fascist action and Kaiserreich are fascists. Same with Super Reich.

Shocked that when these actions were pointed out, The Grey Wardens denied such claims, calling them 'fake news.'

Why is this shocking? You call the fendas raiders, they deny it. What were you expecting to happen.

Noting that as a member of CAIN, The Grey Wardens have used the organization as a tool to take extreme and absurd positions, for the sole purpose of punishing their enemies under the guise of interregional cooperation.

What extreme and absurd positions? And you're claiming this is the only reason they're in CAIN? Bull.

Observing the possibility of other such, and even more depraved and hypocritical actions.

Depraved? How is any of this depraved?

[Cresenthia]

Concerned by the actions of The Order of the Grey Wardens, also known as The Grey Wardens and TGW,

We get it, you're talking about the Wardens.

The numerous unprovoked actions against Kaiserreich.

They're involved in Anti Fascist action and Kaiserreich are fascists. Same with Super Reich.

Shocked that when these actions were pointed out, The Grey Wardens denied such claims, calling them 'fake news.'

Why is this shocking? You call the fendas raiders, they deny it. What were you expecting to happen.

Noting that as a member of CAIN, The Grey Wardens have used the organization as a tool to take extreme and absurd positions, for the sole purpose of punishing their enemies under the guise of interregional cooperation.

What extreme and absurd positions? And you're claiming this is the only reason they're in CAIN? Bull.

Observing the possibility of other such, and even more depraved and hypocritical actions.

Depraved? How is any of this depraved?

Warzone Europe. That was undeniably a raid, and they even admitted as such that it was a raid. Ergo, they are raiders. They deny that they are raiders in direct contravention of evidence to the contrary. Worse, they refer to the fact of them being raiders as "fake news." Definition of depraved. Yes, calling something "fake news" that clearly isn't (and besides, we all know that fake news is obvious and need not be called such, calling something fake news is very strong evidence that it is real) counts as evil in my book.

Edit: And TGW being in CAIN just to use it as a tool is mostly what everyone else is doing with CAIN, even by leaving in in the cases of TEP and TRF.

[Kitzerland]

Calling something fake news is evil?
Sounds like fake news.

[Cresenthia]

Calling something fake news is evil?
Sounds like fake news.

You do realize that you just proved my point for me, right?

[Kitzerland]

Calling something fake news is evil?
Sounds like fake news.

You do realize that you just proved my point for me, right?

By... calling something fake news? Do you consider me evil? I'll be honest, you've lost me.

[Drop Your Pants]

Warzone Europe. That was undeniably a raid, and they even admitted as such that it was a raid. Ergo, they are raiders.

Warzones have always been fair game to everyone in NS, even the residents of the WZ's admit it. I think every defender group ever has hit a WZ at some point in its life. That make us all raiders?

Observing the possibility of other such, and even more depraved and hypocritical actions.

Which you can't find because most of this proposal has come from the last few pages of the CAIN and TGW threads in GP. Better research needed.

[Cresenthia]

Warzone Europe. That was undeniably a raid, and they even admitted as such that it was a raid. Ergo, they are raiders.

Warzones have always been fair game to everyone in NS, even the residents of the WZ's admit it. I think every defender group ever has hit a WZ at some point in its life. That make us all raiders?

Yes. But TGW has also had other raiding actions in the recent past.

Observing the possibility of other such, and even more depraved and hypocritical actions.

Which you can't find because most of this proposal has come from the last few pages of the CAIN and TGW threads in GP. Better research needed.

Oh come on, Femdom Empire was half a year ago now. They may be primarily recent actions, but it is the recent past that these raider actions have happened.

[Drop Your Pants]

Yes. But TGW has also had other raiding actions in the recent past.

Anything beyond your two nazi examples?

Oh come on, Femdom Empire was half a year ago now. They may be primarily recent actions, but it is the recent past that these raider actions have happened.

They've been constantly brought up on the last few pages of the CAIN/TGW threads (mostly brought up by you really). Care to do some more research?

If I were you i'd stop digging myself into a hole

[Cresenthia]

Yes. But TGW has also had other raiding actions in the recent past.

Anything beyond your two nazi examples?

Neither of which are actually Nazi. But I mentioned WZEU, FE, and SRI, so that's three. None of which are Nazi. But I should add specifics about how they purposely mislabel regions to gain free targets.

Oh come on, Femdom Empire was half a year ago now. They may be primarily recent actions, but it is the recent past that these raider actions have happened.

They've been constantly brought up on the last few pages of the CAIN/TGW threads (mostly brought up by you really). Care to do some more research?

Fair enough, but that doesn't make them any less relevant.

[Cresenthia]

The Security Council,

Concerned by the actions of The Order of the Grey Wardens, also known as The Grey Wardens and TGW, a supposedly defender group, that has undertaken seemingly hypocritical actions in recent history, including the following,

• The attempted invasion of Femdom Empire, and the attempted displacement of its natives.
• The invasion of Super Reich I.
• The numerous unprovoked actions against Kaiserreich.
• The invasion of Warzone Europe, starting a wholly unwarranted conflict with its protector, Equilism.

Shocked that when these actions were pointed out, The Grey Wardens denied such claims, calling them “fake news.”

Noting that as a member of CAIN, The Grey Wardens have abused the organization as a tool to take absurd positions, for the sole purpose of mislabeling their enemies as members of an extreme ideology under the guise of interregional cooperation to gain more raiding targets.

Observing the possibility of other such, and even more depraved and hypocritical actions.

Hereby Condemns The Order of The Grey Wardens.

Updated. Question for the knowledgeable: Is referring to fake news a 4(a) violation?

[Shizensky]

Hi there.

I would like to point out that the two largest commended regions are defenders who are quite open about using offensive measures against raiders, or in some cases raider-allied forces. If anything, the arguments in this proposal follow a precedent that would actually suggest commending TGW, rather than condemning them.

I would also warn against trying to condemn someone over things which have not come to pass, but I suspect TGW finds it flattering that you believe in the possibility for them continue doing what they do.

[Kurnugia]

Personal Opinion. Does not reflect tgw's views

The numerous unprovoked actions against Kaiserreich.

While I can assure you everyone's still pretty solid on the fact that you guys are fascist-aligned, we could always pick on you for being raiders instead if you like.

Invaders. But go ahead. That's mostly true. Except for FE, where the tables were turned. We defended, you invaded. And you call yourselves defenders, hmm.

You see pal if you're invader/raider region, defender regions are by definition your enemies. As such actions against KReich are not unprovoked. Should you, however, dissolve your little invader "army", you might have a case for claiming this in future military actions of tgw against KReich.

[Cresenthia]

Personal Opinion. Does not reflect tgw's views

The numerous unprovoked actions against Kaiserreich.

Invaders. But go ahead. That's mostly true. Except for FE, where the tables were turned. We defended, you invaded. And you call yourselves defenders, hmm.

You see pal if you're invader/raider region, defender regions are by definition your enemies. As such actions against KReich are not unprovoked. Should you, however, dissolve your little invader "army", you might have a case for claiming this in future military actions of tgw against KReich.

Odd, you didn't invade SRI in the name of attacking invaders. You claimed that it was a Nazi collaborator region (whatever that is supposed to mean), a blatant and frankly disgusting lie. Same case with Femdom.

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

I think you forgot some raids :wink:

Still waiting for people to read my post on the previous page. Will requote the part that matters:

From Jan 1st to Apr 19th, TGW partook in 12 successful non-traditional defender activities, and 480 successful traditional ones. FOUR HUNDRED EIGHTY. Of those that were traditional defender activities, 295 regions were defended, 74 regions were liberated, 57 regions were detagged, 18 regions were besieged, and 36 regions were supported. Traditional activities comprised 97.56% of all TGW activity, a percentage that has increased every month since January, even with us doing fash bashes, raider region drive-bys, and WZEU.

Now, let's look at cumulative turnout units, the sum of all updaters across all operations. Non-traditional defender activities had a CTU sum of 63, of which 59 were shared with traditional (mixed ops in the same update). Traditional defender activities had a CTU sum of 875 alone, and 934 shared. That's just a bit shy of 1,000 bodies jumping in the first 4 months of the year, for overwhelmingly pure defender activities.

In Jan, 11 different wardens partook in traditional defender activities. In Feb, 13 different wardens. In Mar, 21 different wardens. In Apr so far, 22 different wardens.

Fake News: The wardens are raiding too much and not being defenders.

Fact: The wardens currently have the highest comprehensive defense output in Nationstates.

^ That is what makes us defenders. We defend. A lot. Like, really a lot.

^thanks to Pyrosky for finding this and Vinny for posting this. The numbers don't lie, folks.

So here's the deal. This proposal is just straight-up wrong. Vinny's numbers should make that crystal clear, but if you still think we're raiders, let me wipe off any remaining smudges. You may not like the Wardens because we find your region's ideology reprehensible, Cresenthia, but you should realize that the majority of the gameplay community agrees with us. Both raiders and defenders are signatories of CAIN and, as Shiz pointed out above, the vast majority of defender organizations take the same stance as us. Being a defender doesn't simply mean defending regions against invasion, it means hitting invaders, especially Nazis, where it hurts. Where it hurts the most is when we attack their home region. That's why we do what we do.

[Lenlyvit]

I find this both funny, and a little childish. TGW saves founderless regions from being raided by regions like KAISERREICH and FEMDOM Empire, regardless whether or not they are Nazi, Fascist, or Nazi Collaborators. You would find this heavily opposed by everyone in NS, including some of the raider regions we oppose I believe. Good luck trying to pass this <_<

[Kitzerland]

I find this both funny, and a little childish. TGW saves founderless regions from being raided by regions like KAISERREICH and FEMDOM Empire, regardless whether or not they are Nazi, Fascist, or Nazi Collaborators. You would find this heavily opposed by everyone in NS, including some of the raider regions we oppose I believe. Good luck trying to pass this <_<

As a ebil raider, I can indeed confirm that I am opposed

[Cresenthia]

I really don't care about that 96.5% number or whatever it actually is. Even if they just dropped in on a Warzone I wouldn't care too much. But TGW is making a pattern out of complaining about regions in the forums for BS reasons (or none at all), and then using that as a pretext to trash them. That is wrong. That, and they keep using Kurnugia to trash talk Kaiserreich, even though he never claimed anything about Nazism until they poached him from his rebellion (which had nothing to do with ideology).

[Drasnia]

Sounds like a petty grudge.

[Shizensky]

I really don't care about that 96.5% number or whatever it actually is. Even if they just dropped in on a Warzone I wouldn't care too much. But TGW is making a pattern out of complaining about regions in the forums for BS reasons (or none at all), and then using that as a pretext to trash them. That is wrong. That, and they keep using Kurnugia to trash talk Kaiserreich, even though he never claimed anything about Nazism until they poached him from his rebellion (which had nothing to do with ideology).

TGW using information campaigns, or even propaganda, against their enemies is far from deserving of a condemnation. What's more, that has almost nothing to do with the text of the proposed condemnation.

This is starting to sound an awful lot like you not liking what they have to say about your region, and in return you are fishing for whatever you can pull from the air that might make them look bad. It's almost as if you're complaining about a region in the forums for BS reasons (or none at all), and then using that as a pretext to trash them.

That is wrong.

[Kurnugia]

I really don't care about that 96.5% number or whatever it actually is. Even if they just dropped in on a Warzone I wouldn't care too much. But TGW is making a pattern out of complaining about regions in the forums for BS reasons (or none at all), and then using that as a pretext to trash them. That is wrong. That, and they keep using Kurnugia to trash talk Kaiserreich, even though he never claimed anything about Nazism until they poached him from his rebellion (which had nothing to do with ideology).

So.... expressing an opinion is now worthy of condemnation? Man and I thought to condemn Canterlot was BS.

[Benevolent Thomas]

No mentions of the countless other regions the Wardens invaded or destroyed? Nothing about the upstanding defenders of peace that had no other choice but to declare war on them? Nothing about Madrigal, the first INNOCENT region that was DESTROYED by these malevolent vigilantes? No mentioning of their unsportsmanlike play including spying on and poaching from other invader organizations? May the Maker show mercy on this proposal and its author.

[Roavin]

Category: Condemnation
Nominee: The Order of the Grey Wardens

Version 2 (Most recent):

The Security Council,

Concerned by the actions of The Order of the Grey Wardens, also known as The Grey Wardens and TGW, a supposedly defender group, that has undertaken seemingly hypocritical actions in recent history, including the following,

• The attempted invasion of Femdom Empire, and the attempted displacement of its natives.
• The invasion of Super Reich I.
• The numerous unprovoked actions against Kaiserreich.
• The invasion of Warzone Europe, starting a wholly unwarranted conflict with its protector, Equilism.

Shocked that when these actions were pointed out, The Grey Wardens denied such claims, calling them “fake news.”

Noting that as a member of CAIN, The Grey Wardens have abused the organization as a tool to take absurd positions, for the sole purpose of mislabeling their enemies as members of an extreme ideology under the guise of interregional cooperation to gain more raiding targets.

Observing the possibility of other such, and even more depraved and hypocritical actions.

Hereby Condemns The Order of The Grey Wardens.

Version 1:

The Security Council,

Concerned by the actions of The Order of the Grey Wardens, also known as The Grey Wardens and TGW, a supposedly defender group, that has undertaken seemingly hypocritical actions in recent history, including the following,

• The attempted invasion of Femdom Empire, and the attempted displacement of its natives.
• The invasion of Super Reich I.
• The numerous unprovoked actions against Kaiserreich.
• The invasion of Warzone Europe, starting a wholly unwarranted conflict with its protector, Equilism.

Shocked that when these actions were pointed out, The Grey Wardens denied such claims, calling them “fake news.”

Noting that as a member of CAIN, The Grey Wardens have used the organization as a tool to take extreme and absurd positions, for the sole purpose of punishing their enemies under the guise of interregional cooperation.

Observing the possibility of other such, and even more depraved and hypocritical actions.

Hereby Condemns The Order of The Grey Wardens.

lol k

[Kurnugia]

Category: Condemnation
Nominee: The Order of the Grey Wardens

Version 2 (Most recent):

The Security Council,

Concerned by the actions of The Order of the Grey Wardens, also known as The Grey Wardens and TGW, a supposedly defender group, that has undertaken seemingly hypocritical actions in recent history, including the following,

• The attempted invasion of Femdom Empire, and the attempted displacement of its natives.
• The invasion of Super Reich I.
• The numerous unprovoked actions against Kaiserreich.
• The invasion of Warzone Europe, starting a wholly unwarranted conflict with its protector, Equilism.

Shocked that when these actions were pointed out, The Grey Wardens denied such claims, calling them “fake news.”

Noting that as a member of CAIN, The Grey Wardens have abused the organization as a tool to take absurd positions, for the sole purpose of mislabeling their enemies as members of an extreme ideology under the guise of interregional cooperation to gain more raiding targets.

Observing the possibility of other such, and even more depraved and hypocritical actions.

Hereby Condemns The Order of The Grey Wardens.

Version 1:

The Security Council,

Concerned by the actions of The Order of the Grey Wardens, also known as The Grey Wardens and TGW, a supposedly defender group, that has undertaken seemingly hypocritical actions in recent history, including the following,

• The attempted invasion of Femdom Empire, and the attempted displacement of its natives.
• The invasion of Super Reich I.
• The numerous unprovoked actions against Kaiserreich.
• The invasion of Warzone Europe, starting a wholly unwarranted conflict with its protector, Equilism.

Shocked that when these actions were pointed out, The Grey Wardens denied such claims, calling them “fake news.”

Noting that as a member of CAIN, The Grey Wardens have used the organization as a tool to take extreme and absurd positions, for the sole purpose of punishing their enemies under the guise of interregional cooperation.

Observing the possibility of other such, and even more depraved and hypocritical actions.

Hereby Condemns The Order of The Grey Wardens.

Oh and honestly I am a bit disappointed that I wasn't called by name. As far as I know I was the main responsible for most of the losses of "Protektorates".