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[DISCARDED] Repeal 'Pesticide Regulations'

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Imperium Anglorum
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[DISCARDED] Repeal 'Pesticide Regulations'

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Mon May 01, 2017 9:01 am

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Repeal 'Pesticide Regulations'
Category: Repeal



The World Assembly,

Agreeing with the co-author of the original resolution, that rational nations take reasonable precautions, and therefore, without World Assembly mandate, will:
  1. monitor pesticide use and environmental effects,
  2. provide information and enforce regulations to prevent environmental contamination that could kill thousands of people if exposed to toxic levels,
  3. establish effective product controls which provide enough information to pesticide buyers,
  4. inform other nations of possible pesticide contamination of their territories, and
  5. encourage the use of non-pesticide pest controls;
Perplexed that the co-author would support legislation which does nothing more than codify what nations have long already done, meaning it is not an international issue,

Pleased that the self-resolution of this issue means that there is no real need for this legislation to stay on the books and that any flaw is therefore justification for repeal, and

Concerned that the requirement in clause four to prevent pesticide runoff with such things as buffer zones, selective application, and avoidance of irrigation is fundamentally flawed, as:
  1. sapient lives are better saved and protected through the eradication of disease-bearing pests which serve as a vector for person-to-person transmission,
  2. eradication campaigns of insects will necessarily require large-scale and large-area administration of pesticides or run the risk of leaving a reservoir population,
  3. making it harder for poor nations to cheaply pursue eradication campaigns is principally unjust, since the people affected on the cost margins are the most disadvantaged and those which the world community has the foremost obligation to protect, and
  4. these restrictions greatly increases the difficulty of pest eradication, thereby preventing nations from reducing the incidence of pest-borne diseases like malaria, costing lives, implicitly killing people, and violating the principles upon which this Assembly was founded, while
  5. it massively increases the chance of disease-bearing pests developing resistance to common pesticides, allowing surviving generations to adapt to exposure, making future eradication campaigns ever more difficult and costly, costing yet more lives; and
Believing that the multitude of different nations in the World Assembly means that the only fair way to balance between the lives saved from pesticide usage and its inherent chemical dangers is to allow nations to make that decision themselves, hereby

Repeals 376 GA Pesticide Regulations.
Last edited by Frisbeeteria on Fri May 05, 2017 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sciongrad » Mon May 01, 2017 9:06 am

OOC: No drafting thread?!!?!? IA, once again undermining the age old and unimpeachable traditions of the General Assembly!!! [/false outrage]
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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Mon May 01, 2017 9:18 am

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Postby Wallenburg » Mon May 01, 2017 9:52 am

Sciongrad wrote:OOC: No drafting thread?!!?!? IA, once again undermining the age old and unimpeachable traditions of the General Assembly!!! [/false outrage]

I understand that this is supposed to be funny, but it isn't.

No draft, no support.
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Postby Sciongrad » Mon May 01, 2017 10:09 am

Wallenburg wrote:
Sciongrad wrote:OOC: No drafting thread?!!?!? IA, once again undermining the age old and unimpeachable traditions of the General Assembly!!! [/false outrage]

I understand that this is supposed to be funny, but it isn't.

No draft, no support.

OOC: I sorta think it is.
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Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Mon May 01, 2017 10:34 am

OOC: can you link to the gotcha post where the target's author admits all these things?
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Postby Excidium Planetis » Mon May 01, 2017 11:00 am

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:OOC: can you link to the gotcha post where the target's author admits all these things?

OOC
This.

Additionally, I hate to drag this argument back out of the grave, but if it turns out the co-author (Araraukar if I recall) does not agree with the first clause of this repeal, does that make it an honest mistake violation?

To be honest, I don't remember if GenSec ever ruled on Honest Mistake.
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Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Mon May 01, 2017 11:06 am

For the record, I did mark this illegal for an Honest Mistake violation (more based on the assertions about "rational nations" than for anything to do with the truth value of the personal statements about author and co-author) sometime last night before it reached quorum. I assume I was the only Secretariat member to do so. Either way, it's moot now.
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Postby Wallenburg » Mon May 01, 2017 11:31 am

Excidium Planetis wrote:Additionally, I hate to drag this argument back out of the grave, but if it turns out the co-author (Araraukar if I recall) does not agree with the first clause of this repeal, does that make it an honest mistake violation?

If Ara holds that opinion, then the resolution most certainly suffers from an Honest Mistake violation. However, looking back on the discussion, Ara quite plainly upholds the opinion that IA refers to in this resolution.
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Postby Araraukar » Mon May 01, 2017 12:04 pm

OOC: I'm taking it that it's no accident that you'd submit this while New Dukaine can't post on the forums, IA? That's a new low even for you.
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Postby Sciongrad » Mon May 01, 2017 12:15 pm

Araraukar wrote:OOC: I'm taking it that it's no accident that you'd submit this while New Dukaine can't post on the forums, IA? That's a new low even for you.

OOC: Why can't New Dukaine post on the forum? And since when has it been a rule that proposal can only be submitted when the author can respond? Are we not allowed to repeal resolutions by CTEd nations? Frankly, I doubt IA even knows who New Dukaine is or whether or not they can post on the forum.
Last edited by Sciongrad on Mon May 01, 2017 12:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Bakhton
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Postby Bakhton » Mon May 01, 2017 12:22 pm

"We vote against. Not only was this not properly brought before my ambassadors for revision, your proposal lacks adequate argumentative points besides 'countries can do it better themselves' - debatable - and 'pesticide regulations limit the ability to use pesticides on infectious animals' which it doesn't really at all. Our country has been able to kill the evil SART-spreading giant wasps for decades."
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Postby Araraukar » Mon May 01, 2017 12:45 pm

Sciongrad wrote:OOC: Why can't New Dukaine post on the forum?

OOC: Ask someone who has the authority to tell you.

Frankly, I doubt IA even knows who New Dukaine is or whether or not they can post on the forum.

Just saying that the timing is awfully convenient.

But, really, why else the use of "co-author"-related argumentation? Why drag me into this at all? I just went through every single GA repeal ever passed, none of them mention co-author(s) in the text body. If IA really believed this to be needless regulation stuff, he could've just written so, rather than specifying co-author here. It's a personal attack on me, and you know it.



OOC: Also, for the record, I do OOCly believe pesticide control is internationally important. Just like I believe that we need international human rights declarations in RL, even though every reasonable nation would have instituted those rights already (that they haven't, shows you how the international one is needed).
Last edited by Araraukar on Mon May 01, 2017 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bakhton » Mon May 01, 2017 12:55 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Sciongrad wrote:OOC: Why can't New Dukaine post on the forum?

OOC: Ask someone who has the authority to tell you.

Frankly, I doubt IA even knows who New Dukaine is or whether or not they can post on the forum.

Just saying that the timing is awfully convenient.

But, really, why else the use of "co-author"-related argumentation? Why drag me into this at all? I just went through every single GA repeal ever passed, none of them mention co-author(s) in the text body. If IA really believed this to be needless regulation stuff, he could've just written so, rather than specifying co-author here. It's a personal attack on me, and you know it.



OOC: Also, for the record, I do OOCly believe pesticide control is internationally important. Just like I believe that we need international human rights declarations in RL, even though every reasonable nation would have instituted those rights already (that they haven't, shows you how the international one is needed).


OOC: I'm not sure about any of that but I do know bypassing the drafting process by Imperium Anglorum shows a willingness to take advantage of his influence and an insecurity about actually putting this to our opinions. He can laugh about it, but I find this quite disruptive.
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Postby Sciongrad » Mon May 01, 2017 1:10 pm

Bakhton wrote:
Araraukar wrote:OOC: Ask someone who has the authority to tell you.


Just saying that the timing is awfully convenient.

But, really, why else the use of "co-author"-related argumentation? Why drag me into this at all? I just went through every single GA repeal ever passed, none of them mention co-author(s) in the text body. If IA really believed this to be needless regulation stuff, he could've just written so, rather than specifying co-author here. It's a personal attack on me, and you know it.



OOC: Also, for the record, I do OOCly believe pesticide control is internationally important. Just like I believe that we need international human rights declarations in RL, even though every reasonable nation would have instituted those rights already (that they haven't, shows you how the international one is needed).


OOC: I'm not sure about any of that but I do know bypassing the drafting process by Imperium Anglorum shows a willingness to take advantage of his influence and an insecurity about actually putting this to our opinions. He can laugh about it, but I find this quite disruptive.

OOC: I find this line of reasoning sort of strange. I've been posting on this forum for about 6 years and can definitively say, drafting on the forum nowadays for veterans is not only useless but probably detrimental. Why would IA post a draft knowing that Ara is going to file a legality challenge, EP is going to filibuster it, and Tinfect is going to personally and OOC accuse him of unfairly using evidence to substantiate his claim? It's a waste of time and frankly, a source of stress. SP doesn't post IC anymore. Wonder why?
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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Mon May 01, 2017 1:18 pm

Sciongrad wrote:OOC: Why would IA post a draft knowing that Ara is going to file a legality challenge

OOC: Are you saying you're prejudiced against considering any legality challenges made by me? If so, maybe you should excuse yourself from the GenSec.

It's a waste of time and frankly, a source of stress.

And IA isn't helping matters. But gimme a min to post the legality challenge...
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Postby Sciongrad » Mon May 01, 2017 1:24 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Sciongrad wrote:OOC: Why would IA post a draft knowing that Ara is going to file a legality challenge

OOC: Are you saying you're prejudiced against considering any legality challenges made by me? If so, maybe you should excuse yourself from the GenSec.

No, I'm stating a fact. You are, by a wide margin, the most prolific filer of legality challenges even over issues that are marginal or tested. And in fact, you've explicitly stated you were frustrated that we don't find things illegal more often. That's an unhealthy mentality, bad for the forum, and certainly a good reason to avoid posting a draft on the forums.
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Postby Araraukar » Mon May 01, 2017 1:34 pm

Sciongrad wrote:And in fact, you've explicitly stated you were frustrated that we don't find things illegal more often.

OOC: And I've even more often complained about you guys not wanting to set precedents. Is that bad for the forum too?

and certainly a good reason to avoid posting a draft on the forums.

Which I never complained about?
Last edited by Araraukar on Mon May 01, 2017 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Greater Siriusian Domain » Mon May 01, 2017 1:44 pm

Teran Saber: "As the General Assembly was not even given a chance to examine this proposal before going to vote, the Greater Siriusian Domain opposes the repeal on principle."

Sciongrad wrote:OOC: Why would IA post a draft knowing that Ara is going to file a legality challenge


OOC: Doesn't that reasoning defeat the purpose of GenSec and this forum section in general in the first place? Isn't the point of drafting a resolution is to make sure it's legal and satisfactory? Isn't the point of legality challenges is to ensure that a ruling is made on a proposal with a debatable legal status?

It's too bad a handful of arguably bad apples are ruining everything for us... and that kinda goes for both sides of the conflict - I fail to see an innocent party here.

On a separate note, this proposal honestly comes off as a nat-sov argument.
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Postby Wallenburg » Mon May 01, 2017 1:48 pm

Sciongrad wrote:OOC: I find this line of reasoning sort of strange. I've been posting on this forum for about 6 years and can definitively say, drafting on the forum nowadays for veterans is not only useless but probably detrimental. Why would IA post a draft knowing that Ara is going to file a legality challenge, EP is going to filibuster it, and Tinfect is going to personally and OOC accuse him of unfairly using evidence to substantiate his claim? It's a waste of time and frankly, a source of stress. SP doesn't post IC anymore. Wonder why?

OOC: I suppose, then, you believe that the best option for GA regulars is to simply stop talking to each other and just come here for occasional Stranger's Bar fun and posting OPs for at-vote resolutions. After all, there's no point in debating a proposal that has reached quorum or gone to vote, and apparently there is no point in the drafting process for "veterans".
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Postby Sciongrad » Mon May 01, 2017 2:09 pm

The Greater Siriusian Domain wrote:
Sciongrad wrote:OOC: Why would IA post a draft knowing that Ara is going to file a legality challenge


OOC: Doesn't that reasoning defeat the purpose of GenSec and this forum section in general in the first place? Isn't the point of drafting a resolution is to make sure it's legal and satisfactory? Isn't the point of legality challenges is to ensure that a ruling is made on a proposal with a debatable legal status?

OOC: Yes, that's the purpose, and I have been a vocal proponent of GenSec answering as many questions as possible. However, this forum is paralyzed by legalism. Like, this isn't a game about policy anymore, it's a game about rules. And they're often wacky, esoteric, and abstract. Can a resolution be too mild? Which languages qualify as "English"? That type of thing. The result doesn't help future authors and are often so narrow that no precedent can be set. I have no problems dealing with legality challenges. I do have a problem with how they're being used to filibuster policies one disagrees with.

Wallenburg wrote:
Sciongrad wrote:OOC: I find this line of reasoning sort of strange. I've been posting on this forum for about 6 years and can definitively say, drafting on the forum nowadays for veterans is not only useless but probably detrimental. Why would IA post a draft knowing that Ara is going to file a legality challenge, EP is going to filibuster it, and Tinfect is going to personally and OOC accuse him of unfairly using evidence to substantiate his claim? It's a waste of time and frankly, a source of stress. SP doesn't post IC anymore. Wonder why?

OOC: I suppose, then, you believe that the best option for GA regulars is to simply stop talking to each other and just come here for occasional Stranger's Bar fun and posting OPs for at-vote resolutions. After all, there's no point in debating a proposal that has reached quorum or gone to vote, and apparently there is no point in the drafting process for "veterans".

Given the current forum culture, that is probably best. I wish that weren't the case.

Araraukar wrote:
Sciongrad wrote:And in fact, you've explicitly stated you were frustrated that we don't find things illegal more often.

OOC: And I've even more often complained about you guys not wanting to set precedents. Is that bad for the forum too?

?? You literally got mad when you were told to stop filing frivolous duplication challenges exactly because GenSec noted how firmly established the precedent was. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Last edited by Sciongrad on Mon May 01, 2017 2:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Wallenburg » Mon May 01, 2017 2:13 pm

Sciongrad wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:OOC: I suppose, then, you believe that the best option for GA regulars is to simply stop talking to each other and just come here for occasional Stranger's Bar fun and posting OPs for at-vote resolutions. After all, there's no point in debating a proposal that has reached quorum or gone to vote, and apparently there is no point in the drafting process for "veterans".

Given the current forum culture, that is probably best. I wish that weren't the case.

Then the "best" option is to kill all discussion and, thereby, kill the GA community. Well, I'll miss you guys.
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Postby Araraukar » Mon May 01, 2017 2:25 pm

OOC post because I see no reason to waste RP effort on something that wasn't drafted.

Passed Resolutions wrote:Pesticide Regulations
A resolution to increase the quality of the world's environment, at the expense of industry.

Category: Environmental
Industry Affected: Agriculture
Proposed by: New Dukaine

Description: The World Assembly,

APPLAUDING previous efforts at environmental protection,

RECOGNIZING that in many member nations farmers need to rely on chemical pesticides to keep their crops healthy,

CONCERNED of the effects that pesticides could have on the environment and the inhabitants of member nations, such as contamination of waterways, soil, and groundwater, as well as unintended harm to non-target organisms,

UNDERSTANDING that, like all pollution, pesticide run-off does not respect national boundaries,

HEREBY

1. Extends the mandate of the World Assembly Science Program (WASP) to monitor the use of pesticides in member nations, their unintentional environmental effects, as well as disseminate information on how to best avoid environmental contamination,

2. Defines "chemical pesticide" as a chemical designed to prevent or kill pathogens and non-sapient pests, and which is used to protect crops or other organisms,

3. Establishes these regulations on chemical pesticides used and produced in the member nations:

  • All pesticide ingredients must be ones that are permitted for the intended use by the nation where the product is used,

  • The ingredients must be listed on the label of the pesticide, which must also contain instructions for safe handling and use,

  • No false advertising or unsubstantiated claims are allowed on the label,

  • The producer of the pesticide must include its name and contact information on the label,
4. Requires that the users of chemical pesticides must act to prevent pesticide runoff with preventative measures, including but not limited to buffer zones, selective application and avoiding irrigation right after applying pesticides,

5. Also requires that should an accident involving pesticides happen at or near the border of another nation, the member nation must contact the neighbouring nation's relevant officials, and offer assistance with possible clean-up measures,

6. Encourages member nations to research and use more environmentally-friendly pesticides as well as non-chemical forms of pest control, if these are not already in use,

7. Reaffirms that the use of pesticides as chemical weapons does not fall under the domain of this resolution.

Co-Authored by Araraukar

What IA claims the issue is:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Concerned that the requirement in clause four to prevent pesticide runoff with such things as buffer zones, selective application, and avoidance of irrigation is fundamentally flawed, as:
  1. sapient lives are better saved and protected through the eradication of disease-bearing pests which serve as a vector for person-to-person transmission,
  2. eradication campaigns of insects will necessarily require large-scale and large-area administration of pesticides or run the risk of leaving a reservoir population,
  3. making it harder for poor nations to cheaply pursue eradication campaigns is principally unjust, since the people affected on the cost margins are the most disadvantaged and those which the world community has the foremost obligation to protect, and
  4. these restrictions greatly increases the difficulty of pest eradication, thereby preventing nations from reducing the incidence of pest-borne diseases like malaria, costing lives, implicitly killing people, and violating the principles upon which this Assembly was founded, while
  5. it massively increases the chance of disease-bearing pests developing resistance to common pesticides, allowing surviving generations to adapt to exposure, making future eradication campaigns ever more difficult and costly, costing yet more lives; and


Let's see what GA #376 actually says.

2. Defines "chemical pesticide" as a chemical designed to prevent or kill pathogens and non-sapient pests, and which is used to protect crops or other organisms,

*snip*

4. Requires that the users of chemical pesticides must act to prevent pesticide runoff with preventative measures, including but not limited to buffer zones, selective application and avoiding irrigation right after applying pesticides,


I don't see anything in there that would prevent systematic eradication campaigns.

If you're doing large-scale enough pesticide spreading that you could realistically hope to destroy a pest species, you should have a detailed plan about where and when they're going to spread the pesticide to avoid killing everything and everyone else on the side. To comply, you simply need to take what precautions are available to prevent the pesticide from spreading outside the intended areas. It's good for your economy too, to do that, as pesticide runoff equals losing money on pesticides that aren't doing what you wanted them to do. A poor nation especially should take care to avoid such money loss.



Sciongrad wrote:?? You literally got mad when you were told to stop filing frivolous duplication challenges exactly because GenSec noted how firmly established the precedent was. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

OOC: Re-read, please:
Araraukar wrote:OOC: And I've even more often complained about you guys not wanting to set precedents.

That means GenSec setting a precedent, not just following ones established during the era or mod rule. (First typoed "mob rule" and then started wondering if that would make Fris into NS version of Al Capone... :lol2: )
Last edited by Araraukar on Mon May 01, 2017 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- ambassador miss Janis Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.

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Imperium Anglorum
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 12659
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Mon May 01, 2017 2:28 pm

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:OOC: can you link to the gotcha post where the target's author admits all these things?

Araraukar wrote:EDIT: If you thought it was only good for nations to open their stock market for outsiders, then wouldn't it follow that the reasonable nations already have done so, and the "non-reasonable" (from your point of view) nations wouldn't do it anyway, no matter what you put in the proposal. Thus making the proposal entirely unnecessary.
Araraukar wrote:If an agricultural practice was completely nonsustainable, surely the nation employing such practices had ceased to exist by now.

It is these inevitability arguments here, which are cross-applied to the repeal. I simply reused prior argumentation by the co-author on how unsustainable agricultural practices would be regulated against simply because they are unsustainable and how good actions would be undertaken because reasonable nations would have already done so.



Wallenburg wrote:No draft, no support.

A week of drafting was had. Many players were consulted on various different forums.



Araraukar wrote:OOC: I'm taking it that it's no accident that you'd submit this while New Dukaine can't post on the forums, IA? That's a new low even for you.

I'll be honest. There's something major to admit here. I didn't care the slightest about New Dukaine in submitting this proposal. In fact, I know nothing about New Dukaine. For me, it was Sunday and this week is convenient because there is a break in finals.
Last edited by Imperium Anglorum on Mon May 01, 2017 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Author: 1 SC and 56+ GA resolutions
Maintainer: GA Passed Resolutions
Developer: Communiqué and InfoEurope
GenSec (24 Dec 2021 –); posts not official unless so indicated
Delegate for Europe
Elsie Mortimer Wellesley
Ideological Bulwark 285, WALL delegate
Twice-commended toxic villainous globalist kittehs

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Imperium Anglorum
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 12659
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Mon May 01, 2017 2:30 pm

The various above responses are unresponsive to argumentation brought up in the text itself and in the telegrams sent. Copies of that telegram can be found on various public forums.

Author: 1 SC and 56+ GA resolutions
Maintainer: GA Passed Resolutions
Developer: Communiqué and InfoEurope
GenSec (24 Dec 2021 –); posts not official unless so indicated
Delegate for Europe
Elsie Mortimer Wellesley
Ideological Bulwark 285, WALL delegate
Twice-commended toxic villainous globalist kittehs

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