[DEFEATED] Repeal Reproductive Freedoms

[United Christian]

"Your comparison is awful. Firstly, we don't feel remorse from killing chickens because they are not humans and don't have much in the way of rights. They are not conscious beings. Plus, the growth and development is very different. Don't compare mammals to birds. We don't pay eggs (well, not really). And we are the ones who support women's rights here, because abortion favors men. GA #286 forces nations to legalize abortion even in sex-selection abortion. Which is pretty common. And does anyone abort a son because it's a son? No. They abort girls, though, because it's harder for them to do manual work (and support the mother). Do you support that? Is that a woman's right? Also, I am laughing my, well, you know what off at your GMO comment, but" OOC: That's a topic for another for another thread.

IC: "I am fighting for actual human rights. I'm fighting for the rights of human beings, and even if they aren't technically alive, they still have the right to live, because they will be alive assuming you don't murder them."

"Maybe I should settle for a compromise: Anyone who supports abortion will not be allowed to reproduce. You see, when properly applied, these things can solve themselves when used properly."

That last bit was big in the news, but the ambassador in question has yet to apologize, or even address the matter.

I felt compelled to reply to this, first off, Chickens are very much conscious beings. The definition of conscious, if I remember correctly, is 'aware of and responding to one's surroundings; awake' and when you walk up to a chicken it's gonna run away. It's lay not pay. And how is denying a woman's right to choose what she does with her body and her unborn child for woman's rights? And who cares if it favors men? If a woman wants to get an abortion then let her get one. If she doesn't want one then she doesn't have to get one, it's her right to choose. And so it makes nations legalize it, just make it extremely difficult to get one. There easy fix. And yes I support that if a woman wants to abort a female but not a male that is her right. And how does that make any sense? So because I think women should be allowed to get an abortion I can't have biological kids? Also if you're so aginst murder I guess you stand up to police brutality and western war crimes, which are a, if not the, cause of terrorism across the world. I also suppose to are strongly against capital punishment and nation building. I've noticed that a lot of pro-life supports are also for the bombing runs in the middle east. And for 'Gay-concentration camps' which either kills teens or drive them to suicide year after year. If you are so against the "murder" of an unconscious being then I also expect you to be just as against the murder of your fellow conscious humans.

[United Christian]

Actually, I did find proof of God approving abortion in the Bible:

29 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.

Apparently the Bible says we can even abort them after they come out of the womb? I wonder if there is an age limit? It does seem like it's a one strike policy though. You can abort your first child but not future ones?

This literally has nothing to do with abortion...

[Solorni]

"Maybe I should settle for a compromise: Anyone who supports abortion will not be allowed to reproduce. You see, when properly applied, these things can solve themselves when used properly."

How will you establish control over the women in your society to do this?

[Guy]

Many people in both camps use the bible to justify slavery and abortion.

I'm genuinely curious. What's your Bible-based argument to justify abortion?

There is significant Rabbinical authority that abortion is permissible in several circumstances. At the very least, there is authority that abortion is permissible at any stage of the pregnancy to save the life of the mother, and in some cases of foetal defects. There is also authority that is far more permissive.

Regardless of one's beliefs regarding the ethics of abortion, specific government regulation of it invariably is a net negative, doing far more harm than good.

[Carlendale]

Actually, I did find proof of God approving abortion in the Bible:

29 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.

Apparently the Bible says we can even abort them after they come out of the womb? I wonder if there is an age limit? It does seem like it's a one strike policy though. You can abort your first child but not future ones?

Context is key. Allow me to quote Exodus 12:1-13.

The Lord said to Moses and Aaron in Egypt, “This month is to be for you the first month, the first month of your year. Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb for his family, one for each household. If any household is too small for a whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbor, having taken into account the number of people there are. You are to determine the amount of lamb needed in accordance with what each person will eat. The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats. Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the members of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs. That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast. Do not eat the meat raw or boiled in water, but roast it over a fire -- with the head, legs and internal organs. Do not leave any of it till morning; if some is left till morning, you must burn it. This is how you are to eat it: with your cloak tucked into your belt, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hand. Eat it in haste; it is the Lord’s Passover.

"On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn of both people and animals, and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the Lord. The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt."

I dislike it when people quote the Bible to support their arguments but use individual verses that necessitate context.

Christians do it too, so don't think I'm leaving them out.

[United Christian]

I'm genuinely curious. What's your Bible-based argument to justify abortion?

There is significant Rabbinical authority that abortion is permissible in several circumstances. At the very least, there is authority that abortion is permissible at any stage of the pregnancy to save the life of the mother, and in some cases of foetal defects. There is also authority that is far more permissive.

Regardless of one's beliefs regarding the ethics of abortion, specific government regulation of it invariably is a net negative, doing far more harm than good.

Agreed, this is one of those situations where the government needs to mind its own business and let the women decide based on her morals and ideals. With that said in order for that to happen abortions have to be legal. Doesn't have to be funded or anything just legal.

[Solorni]

I dislike it when people quote the Bible to support their arguments but use individual verses that necessitate context.

Christians do it too, so don't think I'm leaving them out.

You don't think Catholics (me) are Christians?

[Carlendale]

I felt compelled to reply to this, first off, Chickens are very much conscious beings. The definition of conscious, if I remember correctly, is 'aware of and responding to one's surroundings; awake' and when you walk up to a chicken it's gonna run away. It's lay not pay. And how is denying a woman's right to choose what she does with her body and her unborn child for woman's rights? And who cares if it favors men? If a woman wants to get an abortion then let her get one. If she doesn't want one then she doesn't have to get one, it's her right to choose. And so it makes nations legalize it, just make it extremely difficult to get one. There easy fix. And yes I support that if a woman wants to abort a female but not a male that is her right. And how does that make any sense? So because I think women should be allowed to get an abortion I can't have biological kids? Also if you're so aginst murder I guess you stand up to police brutality and western war crimes, which are a, if not the, cause of terrorism across the world. I also suppose to are strongly against capital punishment and nation building. I've noticed that a lot of pro-life supports are also for the bombing runs in the middle east. And for 'Gay-concentration camps' which either kills teens or drive them to suicide year after year. If you are so against the "murder" of an unconscious being then I also expect you to be just as against the murder of your fellow conscious humans.

Okay, okay, okay, I was gonna leave this alone. But one part compelled me to answer. So, since I reply to one part, I can reply to all.

1) Chickens are conscious, yes. But they are not sentient. You said it yourself -- chickens run when you near them. And they always do that. They cannot learn, and they are just stupid animals. Conscious? Yes. Sentient? No.

2) It isn't her body. It's a child's body. And, in case you were wondering, I am pro death penalty. But the death penalty is for CRIMINALS who have committed CRIMES that warrant their death. And what crime has a fetus committed to be killed?

There is a difference between murder and the death penalty, especially since the latter is a result of the former in some cases. Murder is defined as:

The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

On the other hand, death penalty is defined as:

The punishment of execution, administered to someone legally convicted of a capital crime.

So, why exactly is a fetus being killed? For existing? That sounds an awfully lot like murder...

3) I'm not required to enforce this act, and I will refuse to. My nation, my rules. Invade us if you dislike. Fair warning, though, the three nations who've previously invaded never made it out alive.

4) Here's the part that pissed me off.

If I'm against murder, stand up to police brutality?

...Oh, so you mean the few who are legitimately biased?

I tend to dislike it when people disrespect law enforcement and soldiers because one or two decided to be bad dudes for a day. It's only a FEW that do it, yet the media and public penalize ALL of them. It's bull.
Just so you know, OOC I am military support, however unofficial. I don't like it when ungrateful kids berate and destroy them and law enforcement. It's as if some kids don't that the police are there to protect you. There are only a small few who commit acts of racism and inequality. Nonetheless people discredit them all.

Legitimate question here. WHY?

Not to mention -- Western war crimes? Dude, ever heard of ISIS? Islam extremists who rape women and children, conduct mass murders, terrorized their own damn people, and execute gays for being gay?

I guess those must not be war crimes. The West is just that bad, I suppose...

Let me say this: the reason why we end up killing so many civilians is because the terrorists literally mix in with the populace. They're willing to use children as meat shields. And by the time we can fire back? They're long gone. But we don't know that, and end up killing civilians on accident.

This has been happening since Operations Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom, may I note.

5) I'm pro-life but I don't support those "concentration camps" you speak of. I've never even heard of those. I'd actually love to see where you got that bit of information.

No, I'm dead serious. Nobody told me about those.
Yes, I'm anti gay concentration camps, FYI.

[Carlendale]

I dislike it when people quote the Bible to support their arguments but use individual verses that necessitate context.

Christians do it too, so don't think I'm leaving them out.

You don't think Catholics (me) are Christians?

...Care to tell me where I said that?

Also, I wasn't aware you were Catholic anyways. Sorry.

[Solorni]

Well, you quoting me and then saying that 'Christians did it too' infers that I'm not a Christian.

[Christian Democrats]

Regardless of one's beliefs regarding the ethics of abortion, specific government regulation of it invariably is a net negative, doing far more harm than good.

On the contrary, if one affirms that abortion is a form of homicide, almost any law that reduces the abortion rate is a net positive.

Agreed, this is one of those situations where the government needs to mind its own business and let the women decide based on her morals and ideals.

It's unjust to allow any person to have total authority over another's life.

[Carlendale]

Well, you quoting me and then saying that 'Christians did it too' infers that I'm not a Christian.

I don't see how, nor was that what I intended to imply.

I simply stated in general that some Christians alike nonbelievers will quote verses or verse segments from the Bible, but the verse in fact warrants context for full comprehension.

[United Christian]

4) Here's the part that pissed me off.

If I'm against murder, stand up to police brutality?

...Oh, so you mean the few who are legitimately biased?

I tend to dislike it when people disrespect law enforcement and soldiers because one or two decided to be bad dudes for a day. It's only a FEW that do it, yet the media and public penalize ALL of them. It's bull.
Just so you know, OOC I am military support, however unofficial. I don't like it when ungrateful kids berate and destroy them and law enforcement. It's as if some kids don't that the police are there to protect you. There are only a small few who commit acts of racism and inequality. Nonetheless people discredit them all.

Legitimate question here. WHY?

Not to mention -- Western war crimes? Dude, ever heard of ISIS? Islam extremists who rape women and children, conduct mass murders, terrorized their own damn people, and execute gays for being gay?

I guess those must not be war crimes. The West is just that bad, I suppose...

Let me say this: the reason why we end up killing so many civilians is because the terrorists literally mix in with the populace. They're willing to use children as meat shields. And by the time we can fire back? They're long gone. But we don't know that, and end up killing civilians on accident.

This has been happening since Operations Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom, may I note.

5) I'm pro-life but I don't support those "concentration camps" you speak of. I've never even heard of those. I'd actually love to see where you got that bit of information.

No, I'm dead serious. Nobody told me about those.
Yes, I'm anti gay concentration camps, FYI.

Forget the abortion discussion, because now we are getting into far more important issues.

Let's start with the law enforcement issue. I have multiple friends and neighbors who are or are related to, police officers and military personnel. I have multiple friends who are either already in, or are planning to join, the armed forces. However, we all black, white and latino agree on the same thing. The fact that I am terrified when I am pulled over, or that my mother has to tell me to put my license, insurance etc. on the dash when I'm driving so that she doesn't have to bury her son is unacceptable. Not only do you have a portion of cops killing people but NOT ONE OF THEM ARE CONVICTED is an issue. The fact that you have officers of the law who's job is to protect you on video shooting and killing an unarmed black teenager with his hands up and they are still on the force is a problem. Whenever I am interacting with an officer I ask him to leave his lethal weapon in his office or car. I shouldn't have to do that, but I do because I am a 6'5" black teenager and I want to go to college and work in the state department. I want to live to be there for my little brother and my god child. But I can't do that if I am six feet under. I believe they are there to protect me, but I also understand that police brutality is an issue, along with rampant racism.

And if you'd actually listen to us, we generally do not have a problem with the police. We have a problem when not only are people killed for no reason but justice is not given. We have a problem when lives are ruined or taken, for no reason. And the vast majority of this is aginst black people. That's the facts.

And ISIS was the DIRECT RESULT OF WESTERN WAR CRIMES. Had the western world not funded terrorist in the 70's, 80's and 90's, had we not bombed them ISIS would not exist. Whether you think that's true or not, it's the fact of the matter. The fact of the matter, the west and more specifically the United States has dug itself into a whole. Now they have an entire region wanting to kill us because we kill them, and we kill them because they kill and terrorize us. Get where I'm going with this. Because of the United States and its undying need for oil, democracy, and nation building an entire religion is attacked by purely ignorant people only accelerating the issue. This mess was created by the west, simple as that.

[Wolfhawk]

Actually, I did find proof of God approving abortion in the Bible:

29 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.

Apparently the Bible says we can even abort them after they come out of the womb? I wonder if there is an age limit? It does seem like it's a one strike policy though. You can abort your first child but not future ones?

first BORN as in already living people who had already came out of the womb. in others words in this case god suported mas murder

[Wallenburg]

3) I'm not required to enforce this act, and I will refuse to. My nation, my rules.

That'd not how the WA works at all. Compliance is mandatory, and WA law overrides any national law.

[Wolfhawk]

Statement from the delegate from Alentioa:

Alentioa holds reproductive rights very seriously. Our abortion clinics are defended by police to prevent violent intrusions against the right for a mother to control her body. We absolutely believe in the right to abort out of medical necessity or for non-medical reasons before 27 weeks of pregnancy. Despite this, the government of Alentioa firmly holds that the resolution to repeal GA#286 should pass.

The focus on whether a pro-life or pro-choice position is superior seems to have taken up discussion of this issue, both in the media and in international politics. While this may be relevant to many other resolutions, but it should not be the main focus on hand. Alentioa holds that the salient part of this issue is not if women should have reproductive rights, but rather how we should ensure them.

GA#286 does not provide any exception that would allow member countries to prohibit sex-selective abortions. This could encourage a continuation of women's low status in some countries, which contradicts Alentioa's core principle of equality. By allowing all abortions, it also misses the reason why women should be allowed to have abortions: all people have the right to conduct actions that do not harm others. Abortions before 27 weeks do not harm others, while abortions after that kill a viable fetus and therefore are not supported by Alentioa. This does not contradict our support for abortions out of medical necessity at any time, as it is consistent with the principle of self sefence.

Due to its inconsistency with Alentioan values, Alentioa supports a repeal of GA#286 and replacing it with a resolution that also protects women's rights in a way that is much better.

if they were just trying to stop same sex abortions and had a resolution for it ready they might have actually had more luck with the repeal. course with the other side it is often give them an inch they will take a mile which is why this compromise was made.

[West-Phalia]

Ambassador, if it's not your body, it's not your business. and if you want the children to be born so badly, why don't you adopt them?

You can't adopt a dead child.

[Carlendale]

Okay, before I start this? I'd like to thank you. As far as I've seen you've kept this one civil, unlike many of the past discussions I've had like this.

I usually get flamed, told I'm wrong, that free speech no longer exists, then banned. :/

So thank you. I genuinely respect you for this.

And boy, enjoy it! Respect from Carlendale in this day and age is hard-earned.

4) Here's the part that pissed me off.

If I'm against murder, stand up to police brutality?

...Oh, so you mean the few who are legitimately biased?

I tend to dislike it when people disrespect law enforcement and soldiers because one or two decided to be bad dudes for a day. It's only a FEW that do it, yet the media and public penalize ALL of them. It's bull.
Just so you know, OOC I am military support, however unofficial. I don't like it when ungrateful kids berate and destroy them and law enforcement. It's as if some kids don't that the police are there to protect you. There are only a small few who commit acts of racism and inequality. Nonetheless people discredit them all.

Legitimate question here. WHY?

Not to mention -- Western war crimes? Dude, ever heard of ISIS? Islam extremists who rape women and children, conduct mass murders, terrorized their own damn people, and execute gays for being gay?

I guess those must not be war crimes. The West is just that bad, I suppose...

Let me say this: the reason why we end up killing so many civilians is because the terrorists literally mix in with the populace. They're willing to use children as meat shields. And by the time we can fire back? They're long gone. But we don't know that, and end up killing civilians on accident.

This has been happening since Operations Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom, may I note.

5) I'm pro-life but I don't support those "concentration camps" you speak of. I've never even heard of those. I'd actually love to see where you got that bit of information.

No, I'm dead serious. Nobody told me about those.
Yes, I'm anti gay concentration camps, FYI.

Forget the abortion discussion, because now we are getting into far more important issues.

Let's start with the law enforcement issue. I have multiple friends and neighbors who are or are related to, police officers and military personnel. I have multiple friends who are either already in, or are planning to join, the armed forces. However, we all black, white and latino agree on the same thing. The fact that I am terrified when I am pulled over, or that my mother has to tell me to put my license, insurance etc. on the dash when I'm driving so that she doesn't have to bury her son is unacceptable. Not only do you have a portion of cops killing people but NOT ONE OF THEM ARE CONVICTED is an issue. The fact that you have officers of the law who's job is to protect you on video shooting and killing an unarmed black teenager with his hands up and they are still on the force is a problem. Whenever I am interacting with an officer I ask him to leave his lethal weapon in his office or car. I shouldn't have to do that, but I do because I am a 6'5" black teenager and I want to go to college and work in the state department. I want to live to be there for my little brother and my god child. But I can't do that if I am six feet under. I believe they are there to protect me, but I also understand that police brutality is an issue, along with rampant racism.

And if you'd actually listen to us, we generally do not have a problem with the police. We have a problem when not only are people killed for no reason but justice is not given. We have a problem when lives are ruined or taken, for no reason. And the vast majority of this is aginst black people. That's the facts.

And ISIS was the DIRECT RESULT OF WESTERN WAR CRIMES. Had the western world not funded terrorist in the 70's, 80's and 90's, had we not bombed them ISIS would not exist. Whether you think that's true or not, it's the fact of the matter. The fact of the matter, the west and more specifically the United States has dug itself into a whole. Now they have an entire region wanting to kill us because we kill them, and we kill them because they kill and terrorize us. Get where I'm going with this. Because of the United States and its undying need for oil, democracy, and nation building an entire religion is attacked by purely ignorant people only accelerating the issue. This mess was created by the west, simple as that.

1) I'm not saying they're all phony. But there are some publicized events wherein officers have shot "unarmed" people when those people were, in fact, armed. And they have to do what they have to do to protect their designated communities and themselves as well. Some are bad in the bucket. But most aren't.

Another thing...

I'm not faulting you for being scared, because believe me, whenever a cop wants to talk to me, I always assume the worst. But asking an officer to keep his weapon in his car is a very bad mistake; not only on your part, but on his part. If a shooting were to start, he wouldn't have his weapon in order to defend you or himself.
I'm not saying this will happen, but it likely has at least once. Assuming worst-case scenario.

I know several people of African-American ilk who have encountered police officers. The best thing to do? Comply with what they say. Show no hostile intent.
I'd suggest getting a carry license, too, as well as your own personal firearm. Which, in case it does happen to go awry and you do end up with a bad card, you can defend yourself.

I acknowledge police brutality and racism is an issue; the first step to solving a problem is recognizing there is one. But I don't feel as if we can solve the problem by getting scared whenever we speak with police officers. I'm guilty of this as well.
The best solution is to confront the issue head-on. Police departments could start thorough background checks on their officers. People as a whole could be more respectful of officers (The United States in general lacks that, unfortunately). And things like that still will occur, but really, there's no control over it.

The best we can do when the brutality occurs even with the background checks conducted and more respect of both parties is to simply convict them where they stand. Something, we, unfortunately, do not do, as you had noted.

2) So if we created ISIS, then, what do you propose we do?

Allow me to specify: do not say ally with them. That will make the issue worse. I don't know what you were going to say, but people think that's a good idea apparently. It's worse because I consider myself Republican and the idea was pitched by a Republican senator. But that's a different discussion for a different time.

Back to the subject.

If we created the monster, we should known its weakness, right? So where do we hit them where it hurts most? How can we kill it without joining it? That's my question.
I don't necessarily believe we did create ISIS per se, but what we have done are factors of their formation. But let's assume your scenario: what do we do about it?

[Carlendale]

3) I'm not required to enforce this act, and I will refuse to. My nation, my rules.

That'd not how the WA works at all. Compliance is mandatory, and WA law overrides any national law.

They told us not to export firearms and work in the arms trade.

We still do.

I mean, that's also a powerhouse for our economy. Take that away and we practically collapse.

[United Christian]

Okay, before I start this? I'd like to thank you. As far as I've seen you've kept this one civil, unlike many of the past discussions I've had like this.

I usually get flamed, told I'm wrong, that free speech no longer exists, then banned. :/

So thank you. I genuinely respect you for this.

And boy, enjoy it! Respect from Carlendale in this day and age is hard-earned.

Forget the abortion discussion, because now we are getting into far more important issues.

Let's start with the law enforcement issue. I have multiple friends and neighbors who are or are related to, police officers and military personnel. I have multiple friends who are either already in, or are planning to join, the armed forces. However, we all black, white and latino agree on the same thing. The fact that I am terrified when I am pulled over, or that my mother has to tell me to put my license, insurance etc. on the dash when I'm driving so that she doesn't have to bury her son is unacceptable. Not only do you have a portion of cops killing people but NOT ONE OF THEM ARE CONVICTED is an issue. The fact that you have officers of the law who's job is to protect you on video shooting and killing an unarmed black teenager with his hands up and they are still on the force is a problem. Whenever I am interacting with an officer I ask him to leave his lethal weapon in his office or car. I shouldn't have to do that, but I do because I am a 6'5" black teenager and I want to go to college and work in the state department. I want to live to be there for my little brother and my god child. But I can't do that if I am six feet under. I believe they are there to protect me, but I also understand that police brutality is an issue, along with rampant racism.

And if you'd actually listen to us, we generally do not have a problem with the police. We have a problem when not only are people killed for no reason but justice is not given. We have a problem when lives are ruined or taken, for no reason. And the vast majority of this is aginst black people. That's the facts.

And ISIS was the DIRECT RESULT OF WESTERN WAR CRIMES. Had the western world not funded terrorist in the 70's, 80's and 90's, had we not bombed them ISIS would not exist. Whether you think that's true or not, it's the fact of the matter. The fact of the matter, the west and more specifically the United States has dug itself into a whole. Now they have an entire region wanting to kill us because we kill them, and we kill them because they kill and terrorize us. Get where I'm going with this. Because of the United States and its undying need for oil, democracy, and nation building an entire religion is attacked by purely ignorant people only accelerating the issue. This mess was created by the west, simple as that.

1) I'm not saying they're all phony. But there are some publicized events wherein officers have shot "unarmed" people when those people were, in fact, armed. And they have to do what they have to do to protect their designated communities and themselves as well. Some are bad in the bucket. But most aren't.

Another thing...

I'm not faulting you for being scared, because believe me, whenever a cop wants to talk to me, I always assume the worst. But asking an officer to keep his weapon in his car is a very bad mistake; not only on your part, but on his part. If a shooting were to start, he wouldn't have his weapon in order to defend you or himself.
I'm not saying this will happen, but it likely has at least once. Assuming worst-case scenario.

I know several people of African-American ilk who have encountered police officers. The best thing to do? Comply with what they say. Show no hostile intent.
I'd suggest getting a carry license, too, as well as your own personal firearm. Which, in case it does happen to go awry and you do end up with a bad card, you can defend yourself.

I acknowledge police brutality and racism is an issue; the first step to solving a problem is recognizing there is one. But I don't feel as if we can solve the problem by getting scared whenever we speak with police officers. I'm guilty of this as well.
The best solution is to confront the issue head-on. Police departments could start thorough background checks on their officers. People as a whole could be more respectful of officers (The United States in general lacks that, unfortunately). And things like that still will occur, but really, there's no control over it.

The best we can do when the brutality occurs even with the background checks conducted and more respect of both parties is to simply convict them where they stand. Something, we, unfortunately, do not do, as you had noted.

2) So if we created ISIS, then, what do you propose we do?

Allow me to specify: do not say ally with them. That will make the issue worse. I don't know what you were going to say, but people think that's a good idea apparently. It's worse because I consider myself Republican and the idea was pitched by a Republican senator. But that's a different discussion for a different time.

Back to the subject.

If we created the monster, we should known its weakness, right? So where do we hit them where it hurts most? How can we kill it without joining it? That's my question.
I don't necessarily believe we did create ISIS per se, but what we have done are factors of their formation. But let's assume your scenario: what do we do about it?

I also have respect for you, for once I can have a sensible discussion about these issues. As for the police brutality issue, I just say this. Me carrying a weapon, even though I'll probably end up doing it anyway, is the dumbest idea I've heard in that situation. Police typically shot people because they feel their life is in danger, but Jesus actually giving them a reason to be scared is just going to cause problems.

As for ISIS we have dug ourselves into this hole and there's no way to get out of it. If you leave the region, it's thrown into a power vacuum and you either get a regional war that we have to intervene because of Russia. OR you have a new Persian empire. Both of which is bad. Like you said, you can't join them. And bombing them is just going to worsen the situation. This is an extremely dumb idea, but the only way to end this is a full blown war. Boots on the ground, declaration of war, everything. We can continue bombing the cities because NCPs are being killed only making out fight that much harder. So once the IC gets it's act together and give the joint chiefs actionable intel, boots have got to be put on the ground wipe them out. Also deal with Syra while we are there. And while we are doing that and after we are doing that, the entire western world and I mean the entire western world has got to start humanitarian aid. And I don't mean slow stuff. I mean berlin wall, post-WWII humanitarian aid.

Remind them that the big bad west, war crimes and all, are there to help.

[Wallenburg]

That'd not how the WA works at all. Compliance is mandatory, and WA law overrides any national law.

They told us not to export firearms and work in the arms trade.

We still do.

What resolution said that?

I mean, that's also a powerhouse for our economy. Take that away and we practically collapse.

The economic interest of your nation does not affect how the WA treats you. Compliance is still mandatory.

[Carlendale]

Okay, before I start this? I'd like to thank you. As far as I've seen you've kept this one civil, unlike many of the past discussions I've had like this.

I usually get flamed, told I'm wrong, that free speech no longer exists, then banned. :/

So thank you. I genuinely respect you for this.

And boy, enjoy it! Respect from Carlendale in this day and age is hard-earned.



1) I'm not saying they're all phony. But there are some publicized events wherein officers have shot "unarmed" people when those people were, in fact, armed. And they have to do what they have to do to protect their designated communities and themselves as well. Some are bad in the bucket. But most aren't.

Another thing...

I'm not faulting you for being scared, because believe me, whenever a cop wants to talk to me, I always assume the worst. But asking an officer to keep his weapon in his car is a very bad mistake; not only on your part, but on his part. If a shooting were to start, he wouldn't have his weapon in order to defend you or himself.
I'm not saying this will happen, but it likely has at least once. Assuming worst-case scenario.

I know several people of African-American ilk who have encountered police officers. The best thing to do? Comply with what they say. Show no hostile intent.
I'd suggest getting a carry license, too, as well as your own personal firearm. Which, in case it does happen to go awry and you do end up with a bad card, you can defend yourself.

I acknowledge police brutality and racism is an issue; the first step to solving a problem is recognizing there is one. But I don't feel as if we can solve the problem by getting scared whenever we speak with police officers. I'm guilty of this as well.
The best solution is to confront the issue head-on. Police departments could start thorough background checks on their officers. People as a whole could be more respectful of officers (The United States in general lacks that, unfortunately). And things like that still will occur, but really, there's no control over it.

The best we can do when the brutality occurs even with the background checks conducted and more respect of both parties is to simply convict them where they stand. Something, we, unfortunately, do not do, as you had noted.

2) So if we created ISIS, then, what do you propose we do?

Allow me to specify: do not say ally with them. That will make the issue worse. I don't know what you were going to say, but people think that's a good idea apparently. It's worse because I consider myself Republican and the idea was pitched by a Republican senator. But that's a different discussion for a different time.

Back to the subject.

If we created the monster, we should known its weakness, right? So where do we hit them where it hurts most? How can we kill it without joining it? That's my question.
I don't necessarily believe we did create ISIS per se, but what we have done are factors of their formation. But let's assume your scenario: what do we do about it?

I also have respect for you, for once I can have a sensible discussion about these issues. As for the police brutality issue, I just say this. Me carrying a weapon, even though I'll probably end up doing it anyway, is the dumbest idea I've heard in that situation. Police typically shot people because they feel their life is in danger, but Jesus actually giving them a reason to be scared is just going to cause problems.

As for ISIS we have dug ourselves into this hole and there's no way to get out of it. If you leave the region, it's thrown into a power vacuum and you either get a regional war that we have to intervene because of Russia. OR you have a new Persian empire. Both of which is bad. Like you said, you can't join them. And bombing them is just going to worsen the situation. This is an extremely dumb idea, but the only way to end this is a full blown war. Boots on the ground, declaration of war, everything. We can continue bombing the cities because NCPs are being killed only making out fight that much harder. So once the IC gets it's act together and give the joint chiefs actionable intel, boots have got to be put on the ground wipe them out. Also deal with Syra while we are there. And while we are doing that and after we are doing that, the entire western world and I mean the entire western world has got to start humanitarian aid. And I don't mean slow stuff. I mean berlin wall, post-WWII humanitarian aid.

Remind them that the big bad west, war crimes and all, are there to help.

It's nice to be able to have discussions like this; sensible, something that makes me feel like we're in a tearoom or something, rather than a full-blown bar fight many debates like this end up becoming.

In regards to carrying a weapon, I suppose you're right; I didn't think that through much.

If it does end up where you own one, however, all I can say is to make it legal and if you end up in a situation where you are speaking with a law enforcement officer, make it known you do have a weapon but you also have a license for said weapon. In doing, so remain calm -- anxiety is something they watch out for, since in many situations anxiety, to them, means you are hiding something.

The ISIS solution, though, is a good idea. It'd more than likely need to be a joint effort, of course. Including Russia, Australia, Japan, South Korea, Israel, Italy, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Canada, and of course, the United States. But if we're doing humanitarianism after this, it'll need to be damn clear the threat is wiped out as best as possible, not to mention providing the proper defence for said humanitarian forces in case of anything else.

I'd love continue, honest. However, it's getting rather late, and I ought to be getting to bed now. I enjoyed speaking with you -- perhaps we can continue later? Anyway, I'm off to bed.

Cheers, all, and best of wishes.

[United Christian]

I also have respect for you, for once I can have a sensible discussion about these issues. As for the police brutality issue, I just say this. Me carrying a weapon, even though I'll probably end up doing it anyway, is the dumbest idea I've heard in that situation. Police typically shot people because they feel their life is in danger, but Jesus actually giving them a reason to be scared is just going to cause problems.

As for ISIS we have dug ourselves into this hole and there's no way to get out of it. If you leave the region, it's thrown into a power vacuum and you either get a regional war that we have to intervene because of Russia. OR you have a new Persian empire. Both of which is bad. Like you said, you can't join them. And bombing them is just going to worsen the situation. This is an extremely dumb idea, but the only way to end this is a full blown war. Boots on the ground, declaration of war, everything. We can continue bombing the cities because NCPs are being killed only making out fight that much harder. So once the IC gets it's act together and give the joint chiefs actionable intel, boots have got to be put on the ground wipe them out. Also deal with Syra while we are there. And while we are doing that and after we are doing that, the entire western world and I mean the entire western world has got to start humanitarian aid. And I don't mean slow stuff. I mean berlin wall, post-WWII humanitarian aid.

Remind them that the big bad west, war crimes and all, are there to help.

It's nice to be able to have discussions like this; sensible, something that makes me feel like we're in a tearoom or something, rather than a full-blown bar fight many debates like this end up becoming.

In regards to carrying a weapon, I suppose you're right; I didn't think that through much.

If it does end up where you own one, however, all I can say is to make it legal and if you end up in a situation where you are speaking with a law enforcement officer, make it known you do have a weapon but you also have a license for said weapon. In doing, so remain calm -- anxiety is something they watch out for, since in many situations anxiety, to them, means you are hiding something.

The ISIS solution, though, is a good idea. It'd more than likely need to be a joint effort, of course. Including Russia, Australia, Japan, South Korea, Israel, Italy, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Canada, and of course, the United States. But if we're doing humanitarianism after this, it'll need to be damn clear the threat is wiped out as best as possible, not to mention providing the proper defence for said humanitarian forces in case of anything else.

I'd love continue, honest. However, it's getting rather late, and I ought to be getting to bed now. I enjoyed speaking with you -- perhaps we can continue later? Anyway, I'm off to bed.

Cheers, all, and best of wishes.

We should continue this. Have a goodnight.

[Endless Sadness (Ancient)]

I agree that abortion should be legalised, but the reproductive freedoms bill is most definitely poorly written and also allows for abortion in some less ethical situations, such as on the basis of race etc. Perhaps someone can present a reformed counter legislation?

[HMS Thunderchild]

The HMS Thunderchild pitches in on the debate, her voice somewhat distorted by the stolen Martian technology she is using to communicate.

"Given my nature, I may not be the greatest judge of this. But surely we must allow people the option to have control over their own bodies? I know I would want to get rid of a growth inside of my hull that I didn't know was there until now."