[DEFEATED] Condemn The CAIN

[Brunhizzle]

Does that mean you'll oppose Stalinist Regions too?

CAIN stands against Nazism, not other ideologies.

[Neo Danzig]

At the risk of looking like a complete racist and moron, I would like to say something. Why does CAIN get to go around smearing the names of other regions as Nazi's? Why should they get to go around being the judge, jury, and executioner? Why are they able to go around persecuting people for running their region as they please? Was not the very purpose of this Nartion States too allow people to run nations as they see fit, and then regions elect delegates that they feel are best quailified for the position? Why should the CAIN get to tell regions what they can and can't do? To even go as far as to persecute regions because the elected delegates have sometimes posted racial sentiments (regardless of joking/shitposting intent). Why should they be the sole arbiter of whether or not a nation should be punished for their beliefs? Call me crazy but I still beleive that people shouldn't be punished for their thoughts or their expression of them. As long as they are not acting on their predjudices and raiding other regions out of bigotry, I see no reason for CAIN to go around smearing their name to push their agenda. I feel as though the members of CAIN are legitmately good people, whose intentions are coming from the right place. But after combing through their posts, I cannot support the actions they take. To smear other regions for affiliations with other regions that they don't agree with. I agree with the idea that racism and discrimination is factually and morally wrong. However, It is not mine, CAIN's, or anyone's place to enforce their will on others and try to force them to change their beliefs for some grandeous idea of "The Greater Good". Any region should be able to advocate for what they beleive. Ideas should be allowed to flow in a free market where people either buy into them or reject them. I don't know, that's just how I see it. If I got anything incorrect feel free to correct me.

This right here^
Who appointed CAIN as the official Nazi hunters of NationStates?

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

"You expect me to believe that eight nations I have never met are 100% pure of heart and impossible to corrupt?"

I expect you to believe that there's no way 16 regions will approve of attacking a region simply because they're conservative in their social views.

"But they are persecuting LGBT people and therefore are Nazi Collaborators. Again, you want me to place faith in these places when they can use a loophole that is easily accessible?"

Does that mean you'll oppose Stalinist Regions too?

CAIN stands against Nazism, not other ideologies.

"They do the same thing according to the definitions you have written."

[Neo Danzig]

Does that mean you'll oppose Stalinist Regions too?

CAIN stands against Nazism, not other ideologies.

Oh, so left-wing ideologies that support killing people based on their ideologies are okay? The hypocrisy of CAIN is revealed.

[SeattleNinja008]

"So, as head of CAIN, In theory you can call every region in the world a 'Nazi Collaborator' beacuse the vaguely did something that vaguely suports nazism without context."

In theory and in practice, I can do nothing of the sort. Weird of you to quote the treaty without actually reading it.

In order for a region to be designated as a Nazi Collaborator without possessing an embassy with a Nazi Region, they must receive a 2/3rds majority vote of all signatories. This has never happened before but if it were to it would be because the region in question shared core values with Nation Socialism. Core values like the following:

antisemitism, pseudo-scientific racism, racial hygiene, slaughter for living space, genocide, eugenics, persecution of LGBT, etc.

As for Timhampton, the section you quoted is actually in regards to amendments to the text of the treaty. If the a majority of the Coalition's signatories want to amend the text then they can and those that don't want to continue with CAIN after the amendment in question don't have to.

That is NOT what you told the members of my region. CAIN's message was clear to us, if we keep our embassy with KAISERREICH we run the risk becoming labeled as Nazi Collaborators. No other reasons where provided. The telegram is screenshotted and stored for all to see. We can even go further to call you out on your immature labeling of KAISERREICH as a Nazi region. You site the founder having Nazi imagry even though the images predate Nazisim and are for role play, not regional policy. What reason do you have for going after an entire region for what a few members say, and possibly don't even believe?

[ChicagoBoys]

Not really a thing to bring to the WA. As they are using a flame on entire regions CAIN really should be a mod matter. Not that the mods will go after them even after they give no proof that the regions they are after are Nazis.

[SeattleNinja008]

CAIN stands against Nazism, not other ideologies.

Oh, so left-wing ideologies that support killing people based on their ideologies are okay? The hypocrisy of CAIN is revealed.

I also have to notice that CAIN does not stand against the killing of political opponents.

[Brunhizzle]

I expect you to believe that there's no way 16 regions will approve of attacking a region simply because they're conservative in their social views.

"But they are persecuting LGBT people and therefore are Nazi Collaborators. Again, you want me to place faith in these places when they can use a loophole that is easily there?"

CAIN stands against Nazism, not other ideologies.

"They do the same thing."

This argument is ridiculous. You expect 16 regions of varying ideologies and political beliefs to think we should go against non-Nazis. It's one based on nothing but conjecture while ignoring everything about the history of the Coalition.

I'm honestly done arguing the point.

That is NOT what you told the members of my region. CAIN's message was clear to us, if we keep our embassy with KAISERREICH we run the risk becoming labeled as Nazi Collaborators. No other reasons where provided. The telegram is screenshotted and stored for all to see. We can even go further to call you out on your immature labeling of KAISERREICH as a Nazi region. You site the founder having Nazi imagry even though the images predate Nazisim and are for role play, not regional policy. What reason do you have for going after an entire region for what a few members say, and possibly don't even believe?

CAIN designates regions that possess an embassy with a Nazi Region as a Nazi Collaborator.

For the record, this is the telegram you were sent as your region was designated as a potential Nazi Collaborator:

The Coalition Against the Ideology of Nazism has identified some of the regions among your embassies as Nazi Regions. You can find the full list of such regions here: List of Designated Nazi Regions

One of the primary goals of the Coalition is the diplomatic isolation of Nazi Regions. We believe that this is critical for preventing the spread of their hateful message across NationStates. For this reason, we encourage you to withdraw your embassy with the above region.

Please note that choosing not to withdraw the embassy can result in your region being labeled as a Nazi Collaborator, and being subjected to opposition from the Coalition's signatories.

If you have any questions about the above, please contact [nation=short]Brunhizzle[/nation].

Oh, so left-wing ideologies that support killing people based on their ideologies are okay? The hypocrisy of CAIN is revealed.

CAIN is built to oppose an ideology that hates people for the circumstance of their birth, whether that be because they're Jewish, Homosexual, Slav, Polish, or simply because they're non-Aryan. That's not hypocrisy, it's staying true to the reason you were created.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

"But they are persecuting LGBT people and therefore are Nazi Collaborators. Again, you want me to place faith in these places when they can use a loophole that is easily there?"



"They do the same thing."

This argument is ridiculous. You expect 16 regions of varying ideologies and political beliefs to think we should go against non-Nazis. It's one based on nothing but conjecture while ignoring everything about the history of the Coalition.

I'm honestly done arguing the point.

"And I am tired of listening you talk on and on and on about how 16 Regions can magically be immune from taking the easy way to raid a region.
The fact that the loophole exists is reason enough to be concerned. If you have a loophole, people will take the loophole. It would foolish to believe otherwise. Your argument bolls down to 'just trust me' without any real proof. "

[-Mr Money-]

This argument is ridiculous. You expect 16 regions of varying ideologies and political beliefs to think we should go against non-Nazis. It's one based on nothing but conjecture while ignoring everything about the history of the Coalition.

I'm honestly done arguing the point.

"And I am tired of listening you talk on and on and on about how 16 Regions can magically be immune from taking the easy way to raid a region.
The fact that the loophole exists is reason enough to be concerned. If you have a loophole, people will take the loophole. It would foolish to believe otherwise. Your argument bolls down to 'just trust me' without any real proof. "

Hear hear!

[Azarox]

That is NOT what you told the members of my region. CAIN's message was clear to us, if we keep our embassy with KAISERREICH we run the risk becoming labeled as Nazi Collaborators. No other reasons where provided. The telegram is screenshotted and stored for all to see. We can even go further to call you out on your immature labeling of KAISERREICH as a Nazi region. You site the founder having Nazi imagry even though the images predate Nazisim and are for role play, not regional policy. What reason do you have for going after an entire region for what a few members say, and possibly don't even believe?

CAIN designates regions that possess an embassy with a Nazi Region as a Nazi Collaborator.

For the record, this is the telegram you were sent as your region was designated as a potential Nazi Collaborator:

The Coalition Against the Ideology of Nazism has identified some of the regions among your embassies as Nazi Regions. You can find the full list of such regions here: List of Designated Nazi Regions

One of the primary goals of the Coalition is the diplomatic isolation of Nazi Regions. We believe that this is critical for preventing the spread of their hateful message across NationStates. For this reason, we encourage you to withdraw your embassy with the above region.

Please note that choosing not to withdraw the embassy can result in your region being labeled as a Nazi Collaborator, and being subjected to opposition from the Coalition's signatories.

If you have any questions about the above, please contact [nation=short]Brunhizzle[/nation].

I don't understand your argument here. SeattleNinja makes a very valid complaint about you falsely labling the region they collaborated with is a Nazi Region, and then calling them a Nazi collaborator by association. Your response is to say "CAIN designates regions that possess an embassy with a Nazi Region as a Nazi Collaborator." You basically just said that CAIN's labling is justified because the people you labled are Nazi's. That is not a valid argument in the slightest. You are implying that all of CAIN's judgements are absolutely true. I don't think you've intended this to be your message, but the wording of your response is concerning.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

"Furthermore, until you present proof that 16 regions are pure of heart and are magical enough to never take that loophole and/or update the CAIN constitution to have a better definition of 'Nazi Collaborators' I will remain unconvinced. And believe me, I know magic, after all I am a Unicorn."

[Northern Alwaincefalland]

How do I join CAIN?

[Tinhampton]

How do I join CAIN?

You don't. Regions join, not nations.

[Northern Alwaincefalland]

How do I join CAIN?

You don't. Regions join, not nations.

Alright. Our nation's region is more likely than not in CAIN.

[Darcania]

"Furthermore, until you present proof that 16 regions are pure of heart and are magical enough to never take that loophole and/or update the CAIN constitution to have a better definition of 'Nazi Collaborators' I will remain unconvinced. And believe me, I know magic, after all I am a Unicorn."

I see you, sir, as residing in The South Pacific. A quick look at TSP's Charter shows that a three-fifths supermajority would be needed to to amend this charter. I'd like to point out before I get to the crux of my point that three fifths (60%) is less than two-thirds (67%). If you fear so much that a minority of members would not prevent an amendment so counter to the document it seeks to amend, or prevent a vote to take an action so counter to the organization they agreed to join, then one would be led to believe that you should leave TSP immediately and seek a monarchistic region, or a region of your very own to rule.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

"Furthermore, until you present proof that 16 regions are pure of heart and are magical enough to never take that loophole and/or update the CAIN constitution to have a better definition of 'Nazi Collaborators' I will remain unconvinced. And believe me, I know magic, after all I am a Unicorn."

I see you, sir, as residing in The South Pacific. A quick look at TSP's Charter shows that a three-fifths supermajority would be needed to to amend this charter. I'd like to point out before I get to the crux of my point that three fifths (60%) is less than two-thirds (67%). If you fear so much that a minority of members would not prevent an amendment so counter to the document it seeks to amend, or prevent a vote to take an action so counter to the organization they agreed to join, then one would be led to believe that you should leave TSP immediately and seek a monarchistic region, or a region of your very own to rule.

"You seem to have missed the point. It isn't that the charter of TSP can be edited, nor the constitution of CAIN. It is that the current definition of 'Nazi Collaborators' seems to be one big flaw in the constitution. The Charter of TSP is irrelevant to this discussion."

[The Brand New Salvatagard Republic]

Does that mean you'll oppose Stalinist Regions too?

CAIN stands against Nazism, not other ideologies.

One of my German relatives, Hans Frank, was the General-Governor of Nazi German occupied Poland, and Adolf Hitler's personal lawyer. I refuse to go against my very own anchestory and blood, and Nazism is just a form and Marxism! Think outside of the box, did you have any relatives who lived/worked for the axis powers? Even though I'm part Jewish and possibly a relative of Anne Frank, I will never go against anything that will destroy anything German. It's just an ideology and idea, and get to the point. And I am not a Nazi supporter myself.

[Tretrid]

Lydia Powell walks in the chamber, and sighed. She had missed the stomping. She posted up her relpy: AGAINST.
"CAIN is supported by some very large regions. Good luck."

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Lydia Powell walks in the chamber, and sighed. She had missed the stomping. She posted up her relpy: AGAINST.
"CAIN is supported by some very large regions. Good luck."

"And that large support is relevant to why it is good or bad? Or, why it should be condemned or not?"

[Neo Danzig]

Lydia Powell walks in the chamber, and sighed. She had missed the stomping. She posted up her relpy: AGAINST.
"CAIN is supported by some very large regions. Good luck."

That seems like some pretty bad reasoning. Just because everyone else is against it doesn't mean you should be. There's nothing to lose. We're not debating which side will win, but which side should win.

[Tretrid]

"That is not my reasons for voting against. I support CAIN fully. I was just telling you that this has a very low chance of passing. Also, the author of this proposal is written by a nation who is in a region CAIN considers Nazi."

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

"That is not my reasons for voting against. I support CAIN fully. I was just telling you that this has a very low chance of passing. Also, the author of this proposal is written by a nation who is in a region CAIN considers Nazi."

"That second reason is a genetic logical fallacy. I would ask you to reconsider you supporting CAIN fully. For the reasons I have stated here.*

[Tretrid]

"I was just saying that the source of the proposal is questionable. Some of the concerns raised in the proposal may be somewhat valid, but I will not support the proposal. As for my wholehearted support of CAIN, I will not move in my position about it. Also, I haven't found a list and don't have the time to read them all."

[SeattleNinja008]

"That is not my reasons for voting against. I support CAIN fully. I was just telling you that this has a very low chance of passing. Also, the author of this proposal is written by a nation who is in a region CAIN considers Nazi."

CAIN has so far been unable to provide any real evidence that KAISERREICH is even Nazi. Their evidence, as of now, is factbooks that are for role play and contain no Nazi imagery, contrary to their claim. This is also about how they profile other regions who are embassies with KAISERREICH as "Nazi Collaborators, even though at least one of them is run by Jews. While they have good intentions, in practice they are evil and go around smearing regions reputations. You are lucky there is no defamation court in NS, they would have a field day.