[DEFEATED] Condemn The CAIN

[Kalbera]

"We have voted FOR, we have first hand been threatened to be called a "Nazi collaborator" simply because we refused to close an embassy, we will govern our region as we see fit, not at the whim of some outsiders who wish to dictate to us how to run our region. I believe they also went through with it and deemed us as such. we do not bow to outsiders."

Vandario,
I urge you not to vote for this resolution just because of some CAIN's misguided current practices. The Nazi Collaborator definitions is by far the weakest part of the treaty and is still in the process of being fixed. You can see some of the progress we are making by taking regions such as The Embassy and The Bar on the corner of every region off of the list because they try to collect as many embassies as possible. Instead of condemning a region which is ultimately trying to do good by stopping discriminatory actions against the people of NationStates, talk to CAIN signatories and ask them to change the definition of Nazi Collaborator. I am sure they would willing to hear anything you have to say.

[Viscondy]

Given the membership of CAIN, this will be stomped into the ground within minutes of going to vote. Have fun.

I do believe that this is called "Tyranny by the Majority." CAIN is really going way too far, and should be at the very least be more specific in their qualification of "Nazi" regions. Since the interregional organization is mainly made up of Communists, raiders, and some defenders, your group might be better off renaming itself CAIF (Coalition Against the Ideology of Fascism) or CAGN (Coalition Against German Nationalism) than CAIN.

I think there should be a CAIF, and it's something that I would support. Are opposed to Fascism? I would like to think so. So why don't you support this organisation that you believe is against fascism? I hate it when national sovereigntists attempt to justify things that everyone agrees are wrong by citing the right of governments to infringe on the rights of actual people. No government has the right to be Fascist or overly nationalistic, because both of those things are objectively wrong. The only way you can get around this is to say that both morality and truth are relative to the culture that they exist in, so that murder is okay if your culture allows it.

[Viscondy]

The polls say the opposite, tho

This is not about the polls this is about CAIN threatening other regions telling them to remove embassies. No one has removed their embassy.

Having an embassy with another region means that you are it's ally! There is no reason why a region which had nothing to do with Nazism would even set up an embassy with a nazi region in the first place, much less refuse to take them down!

[Tinhampton]

"We have voted FOR, we have first hand been threatened to be called a "Nazi collaborator" simply because we refused to close an embassy, we will govern our region as we see fit, not at the whim of some outsiders who wish to dictate to us how to run our region. I believe they also went through with it and deemed us as such. we do not bow to outsiders."

Vandario,
I urge you not to vote for this resolution just because of some CAIN's misguided current practices. The Nazi Collaborator definitions is by far the weakest part of the treaty and is still in the process of being fixed. You can see some of the progress we are making by taking regions such as The Embassy and The Bar on the corner of every region off of the list because they try to collect as many embassies as possible. Instead of condemning a region which is ultimately trying to do good by stopping discriminatory actions against the people of NationStates, talk to CAIN signatories and ask them to change the definition of Nazi Collaborator. I am sure they would willing to hear anything you have to say.

Alexander Smith, Tinhamptonian Delegate-Ambassador to the World Assembly: Ambassador Volgarys, it is my understanding that the nation of Vandario is located in the region called "The Multiverse Of Your Own Reality," a region which is not currently being considered for removal from the "Nazi Collaborators" list. I am unaware of any attempts to get The Multiverse off of the Collaborators list, thus making your entire point void.

[Bears Armed]

"Nazis or invaders, invaders or nazis...
Meh, it's just one damned thing after another."

"Abstain."

[Brunhizzle]

This is not about the polls this is about CAIN threatening other regions telling them to remove embassies. No one has removed their embassy.

You sure about that?

Just look at the factbooks. The one you claim to have Nazi imagery contains nothing of the sort. You also decided that they were Nazi, based on cherry-picked data from 3 people, some of it arguably poor evidence, instead of regional policy, which should be where you are looking. How do three people determine now an entire region thinks? Answer: They don't.

I mean, are you sure there are no dispatches related to Nazism?

Also, I certainly think that having your primary representative making multiple Anti-Semitic statements while also using a literal Nazi Eagle for the background of your forum paints your region in a bad light.

Finally, anyone that thinks we are made up of "communists, raiders, and some defenders" should probably do some reading.

[Naoarn]

I would remove the first "so-called" as that is the actual region's name.

[Tretrid]

I do believe that this is called "Tyranny by the Majority." CAIN is really going way too far, and should be at the very least be more specific in their qualification of "Nazi" regions. Since the interregional organization is mainly made up of Communists, raiders, and some defenders, your group might be better off renaming itself CAIF (Coalition Against the Ideology of Fascism) or CAGN (Coalition Against German Nationalism) than CAIN.

I think there should be a CAIF, and it's something that I would support. Are opposed to Fascism? I would like to think so. So why don't you support this organisation that you believe is against fascism? I hate it when national sovereigntists attempt to justify things that everyone agrees are wrong by citing the right of governments to infringe on the rights of actual people. No government has the right to be Fascist or overly nationalistic, because both of those things are objectively wrong. The only way you can get around this is to say that both morality and truth are relative to the culture that they exist in, so that murder is okay if your culture allows it.

I'ts called Antifa.

[Wallenburg]

I hate it when national sovereigntists attempt to justify things that everyone agrees are wrong by citing the right of governments to infringe on the rights of actual people. No government has the right to be Fascist or overly nationalistic, because both of those things are objectively wrong.

GAR#2 says otherwise.

[Sygian II]

This is a terrible and pointless resolution full of fallacious logic in the form of slander toward CAIN. I have voted AGAINST, and have encouraged others to as well.

[Kalbera]

Vandario,
I urge you not to vote for this resolution just because of some CAIN's misguided current practices. The Nazi Collaborator definitions is by far the weakest part of the treaty and is still in the process of being fixed. You can see some of the progress we are making by taking regions such as The Embassy and The Bar on the corner of every region off of the list because they try to collect as many embassies as possible. Instead of condemning a region which is ultimately trying to do good by stopping discriminatory actions against the people of NationStates, talk to CAIN signatories and ask them to change the definition of Nazi Collaborator. I am sure they would willing to hear anything you have to say.

Alexander Smith, Tinhamptonian Delegate-Ambassador to the World Assembly: Ambassador Volgarys, it is my understanding that the nation of Vandario is located in the region called "The Multiverse Of Your Own Reality," a region which is not currently being considered for removal from the "Nazi Collaborators" list. I am unaware of any attempts to get The Multiverse off of the Collaborators list, thus making your entire point void.

Mr. Smith,
The point isn't that Vanadrio's region is being considered for removal from the Collaborator list, it's that change is currently being enacted and I am sure if a convincing case could be presented to CAIN about why the multiverse should not be on the list, they would be taken off of the list. Again while currently flawed CAIN is attempting to do good. The point that I was attempting to make is that a condemnation will not achieve the goals of those accused as Collaborators, which I assume is to be taken off of the list. The best way to achieve their goals would be to present a case to CAIN arguing why they should be taken off of the list. Our nation would be proud to represent anyone who does not want to represent themselves.

[Vandario]

Alexander Smith, Tinhamptonian Delegate-Ambassador to the World Assembly: Ambassador Volgarys, it is my understanding that the nation of Vandario is located in the region called "The Multiverse Of Your Own Reality," a region which is not currently being considered for removal from the "Nazi Collaborators" list. I am unaware of any attempts to get The Multiverse off of the Collaborators list, thus making your entire point void.

Mr. Smith,
The point isn't that Vanadrio's region is being considered for removal from the Collaborator list, it's that change is currently being enacted and I am sure if a convincing case could be presented to CAIN about why the multiverse should not be on the list, they would be taken off of the list. Again while currently flawed CAIN is attempting to do good. The point that I was attempting to make is that a condemnation will not achieve the goals of those accused as Collaborators, which I assume is to be taken off of the list. The best way to achieve their goals would be to present a case to CAIN arguing why they should be taken off of the list. Our nation would be proud to represent anyone who does not want to represent themselves.

"If you wish to plead our case, then go ahead, but they made themselves very clear to us. They want us to remove an embassy with a NatSoc region. While we don't share their Ideology, but nor will we be told by a group of moral crusaders who we should, and shouldn't be allowed to talk to. We will govern our region as we see fit, thus why we made a region. Also been made clear to us reading their tread, and the complaints of others. That some members go out to use CAIN for their own purposes, to settle personal grudges, not to fight Nazi's only deeming everyone who oppose them as collaboraters. We will not bend to such an organization, no matter how they lable us. We may be small, we may be a no body, but we will not submit. Let them threaten all they like with lable, and raiding."

[Independent waifus]

Alexander Smith, Tinhamptonian Delegate-Ambassador to the World Assembly: Ambassador Volgarys, it is my understanding that the nation of Vandario is located in the region called "The Multiverse Of Your Own Reality," a region which is not currently being considered for removal from the "Nazi Collaborators" list. I am unaware of any attempts to get The Multiverse off of the Collaborators list, thus making your entire point void.

Mr. Smith,
The point isn't that Vanadrio's region is being considered for removal from the Collaborator list, it's that change is currently being enacted and I am sure if a convincing case could be presented to CAIN about why the multiverse should not be on the list, they would be taken off of the list. Again while currently flawed CAIN is attempting to do good. The point that I was attempting to make is that a condemnation will not achieve the goals of those accused as Collaborators, which I assume is to be taken off of the list. The best way to achieve their goals would be to present a case to CAIN arguing why they should be taken off of the list. Our nation would be proud to represent anyone who does not want to represent themselves.

I do not believe to issue is that they are or are not on the list, the problem is that such a list even exists. The problem is that a group has taken it upon themselves to identify any and all "nazis" and their "collaborators" using an incredibly vague definition and criteria that many other nations and ideologies have practiced in real life that have no relation to national socialism. If a single nation in a region has values that are deemed "sympathetic to nazism" does that warrant the condemnation or invasion of the entire region because one of their members has been dubbed a "nazi"? Furthermore, who or what has given you the right to declare this crusade against those you disagree with in a ROLEPLAYING game? Are you so arrogant as to assume that the people are incapable of determining what beliefs are or are not valid for themselves, that you would seek to exterminate all those who you deem as "evil" and decide for these nations what they can and cannot believe or follow?

[Tinhampton]

Jamie Williamson, Assistant to the Delegate-Ambassador: For the Viscondyian ambassador: Yes, I might be an International Federalist, but even I can agree that Member States are free to pick whatever type of government they choose! The World Assembly cannot force members to change the politics of their government; only to change their attitudes on specific areas of legislation. In case you're wondering, my NatSov colleague* is out to get dinner at the local Papa Pallocci's Pizza Something-or-other.
*Delegate-Ambassador Alexander Smith

[Brunhizzle]

Jamie Williamson, Assistant to the Delegate-Ambassador: For the Viscondyian ambassador: Yes, I might be an International Federalist, but even I can agree that Member States are free to pick whatever type of government they choose! The World Assembly cannot force members to change the politics of their government; only to change their attitudes on specific areas of legislation. In case you're wondering, my NatSov colleague* is out to get dinner at the local Papa Pallocci's Pizza Something-or-other.
*Delegate-Ambassador Alexander Smith

No one is attempting to make the World Assembly change the policy of their government. CAIN does not represent the World Assembly, it represents the 24 regions that have decided to stand opposed to Nazism on NS instead of using terms like "regional sovereignty" as poor excuse for turning a blind eye to racism and discrimination.

[Kalbera]

I do not believe to issue is that they are or are not on the list, the problem is that such a list even exists. The problem is that a group has taken it upon themselves to identify any and all "nazis" and their "collaborators" using an incredibly vague definition and criteria that many other nations and ideologies have practiced in real life that have no relation to national socialism. If a single nation in a region has values that are deemed "sympathetic to nazism" does that warrant the condemnation or invasion of the entire region because one of their members has been dubbed a "nazi"? Furthermore, who or what has given you the right to declare this crusade against those you disagree with in a ROLEPLAYING game? Are you so arrogant as to assume that the people are incapable of determining what beliefs are or are not valid for themselves, that you would seek to exterminate all those who you deem as "evil" and decide for these nations what they can and cannot believe or follow?

CAIN is doing what it believes it can do make NationStates a better place for many people and to stop discriminatory practices. You are free to create your own treaty and use whatever methods you see fit to use to achieve the goals that you set out to use.

If a single nation in a region has values that are deemed "sympathetic to nazism" does that warrant the condemnation or invasion of the entire region because one of their members has been dubbed a "nazi"?

No this does not warrant the invasion of an entire region. The focus is for entire region's political beliefs, not the actions of one individual.

Are you so arrogant as to assume that the people are incapable of determining what beliefs are or are not valid for themselves, that you would seek to exterminate all those who you deem as "evil" and decide for these nations what they can and cannot believe or follow?

CAIN is not arrogant, this is a group of regions that has agreed to put aside all of our differences to stop what many of us consider a threat. You have absolutely every right to believe what you want to believe. CAIN also has the right to do anything within the rules to stop the spread of hate to those that are not indoctrinated with such hateful actions. So you can keep using the argument of national sovereignty to justify your actions, but as soon people feel a threat to their ways, they want to legislate against it. Just remember CAIN has the right of National Sovereignty too and they intend to exercise it.

OOC: Yes I do realize I went way over the top with theatrics, but this was a lot of fun to write.

[Independent waifus]

Jamie Williamson, Assistant to the Delegate-Ambassador: For the Viscondyian ambassador: Yes, I might be an International Federalist, but even I can agree that Member States are free to pick whatever type of government they choose! The World Assembly cannot force members to change the politics of their government; only to change their attitudes on specific areas of legislation. In case you're wondering, my NatSov colleague* is out to get dinner at the local Papa Pallocci's Pizza Something-or-other.
*Delegate-Ambassador Alexander Smith

No one is attempting to make the World Assembly change the policy of their government. CAIN does not represent the World Assembly, it represents the 24 regions that have decided to stand opposed to Nazism on NS instead of using terms like "regional sovereignty" as poor excuse for turning a blind eye to racism and discrimination.

But what do you have to determine what is or isn't racist or discriminatory? Who has given you the right to dictate what nations on nations states may or may not do? This is after all a game, I do seriously doubt anyone who is actually a nazi on here has any serious reach. Either here in nation states or in real life. All you have done is institute an attempt at thought control and have terrorized dozens of different nations and regions either with the threat or use of force of the threat or use of condemnation for simply having an embassy with a region you have deemed as being national socialist.

[Brunhizzle]

No one is attempting to make the World Assembly change the policy of their government. CAIN does not represent the World Assembly, it represents the 24 regions that have decided to stand opposed to Nazism on NS instead of using terms like "regional sovereignty" as poor excuse for turning a blind eye to racism and discrimination.

But what do you have to determine what is or isn't racist or discriminatory? Who has given you the right to dictate what nations on nations states may or may not do?

Why do we need a right to point towards evidence of racism? I'm not sure where it comes off that this was given to our signatories or that we're reaching into people's mind. What CAIN is doing is using justifiable proof, proof like Anti-Semitic statements, a penchant for using Nazi symbolism, and looking at regions that actively say they're Nazis to designate regions as Nazi Regions. I'm not sure why I need a right to look at something that's publicly available for everyone.

Also, for clarification, we're certainly not going to be handing out condemnations. All they do is serve as a badge of honor and a recruitment tool.

[Independent waifus]

I do not believe to issue is that they are or are not on the list, the problem is that such a list even exists. The problem is that a group has taken it upon themselves to identify any and all "nazis" and their "collaborators" using an incredibly vague definition and criteria that many other nations and ideologies have practiced in real life that have no relation to national socialism. If a single nation in a region has values that are deemed "sympathetic to nazism" does that warrant the condemnation or invasion of the entire region because one of their members has been dubbed a "nazi"? Furthermore, who or what has given you the right to declare this crusade against those you disagree with in a ROLEPLAYING game? Are you so arrogant as to assume that the people are incapable of determining what beliefs are or are not valid for themselves, that you would seek to exterminate all those who you deem as "evil" and decide for these nations what they can and cannot believe or follow?

CAIN is doing what it believes it can do make NationStates a better place for many people and to stop discriminatory practices. You are free to create your own treaty and use whatever methods you see fit to use to achieve the goals that you set out to use.

If a single nation in a region has values that are deemed "sympathetic to nazism" does that warrant the condemnation or invasion of the entire region because one of their members has been dubbed a "nazi"?

No this does not warrant the invasion of an entire region. The focus is for entire region's political beliefs, not the actions of one individual.

Are you so arrogant as to assume that the people are incapable of determining what beliefs are or are not valid for themselves, that you would seek to exterminate all those who you deem as "evil" and decide for these nations what they can and cannot believe or follow?

CAIN is not arrogant, this is a group of regions that has agreed to put aside all of our differences to stop what many of us consider a threat. You have absolutely every right to believe what you want to believe. CAIN also has the right to do anything within the rules to stop the spread of hate to those that are not indoctrinated with such hateful actions. So you can keep using the argument of national sovereignty to justify your actions, but as soon people feel a threat to their ways, they want to legislate against it. Just remember CAIN has the right of National Sovereignty too and they intend to exercise it.

OOC: Yes I do realize I went way over the top with theatrics, but this was a lot of fun to write.

You have every right to stop the spread of hate? What hate? The only one around here spreading hate seems to be you guys. They cause you to "feel" threatened? In what way? They're a small minority of individuals on nation states. In what way could they possibly be considered a threat to you? Also how is anyone here "indoctrinated" into their beliefs here? I do highly doubt that people can be easily fooled or mislead by "nazis". If they were their would be far more of them than there are now.

[Annihilators of Chan Island]

Going to condemn an entire region just because one time one person within it mislabeled a single region? Come on, there are lots of raider regions out there that have actually deserve their time in the sun. This is the very first time I've voted against a condemnation.

[Indo-Malaysia]

Its a bit disheartening that this condemnation is losing.

[Northern Alwaincefalland]

Its a bit disheartening that this condemnation is losing.

Actually it's great. Although my region is unofficially affiliated with CAIN, the majority of our nation agrees that the fash should be stopped.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Its a bit disheartening that this condemnation is losing.

You sound surprised. This Condemnation was always going to get stomped hard and deservedly so.

[Viscondy]

I hate it when national sovereigntists attempt to justify things that everyone agrees are wrong by citing the right of governments to infringe on the rights of actual people. No government has the right to be Fascist or overly nationalistic, because both of those things are objectively wrong.

GAR#2 says otherwise.

Well, who says that General Assembly Resolution 2 is right? We should not take the word of the GA as gospel!

[Wallenburg]

GAR#2 says otherwise.

Well, who says that General Assembly Resolution 2 is right? We should not take the word of the GA as gospel!

You do understand the concept of a law, right? You can argue whether it is right or not, but it is not a debate that GAR#2 does what it does.