[DEFEATED] Condemn The CAIN

[Tretrid]

OOC: Proof?
IC:
"Oh? Is that so?"

[SeattleNinja008]

OOC: Proof?
IC:
"Oh? Is that so?"

Just look at the factbooks. The one you claim to have Nazi imagery contains nothing of the sort. You also decided that they were Nazi, based on cherry-picked data from 3 people, some of it arguably poor evidence, instead of regional policy, which should be where you are looking. How do three people determine now an entire region thinks? Answer: They don't.

And let me bring up the smearing of embassy regions again. This is very reckless behavior and should stop being a practice of CAIN. Going around and THREATENING regions that their reputations will be SMEARED is BLACKMAIL. No one will take you seriously, and in the case of KAISERREICH, no one has.

The thing that really shocks me is that you don't take my friend seriously because he resides in KAISERREICH. You have gone so far as to even smear my friends credibility on the sole fact he resides there. Nothing else. If anything he should be more credible as he knows the region unlike the leaders of CAIN, who completely misidentified pre-Nazi imagery as Nazi imagery. He is condemning CAIN for their ignorance, stubbornness, and recklessness.

[Northern Alwaincefalland]

No one will take you seriously, and in the case of KAISERREICH, no one has.

The polls say the opposite, tho

[SeattleNinja008]

No one will take you seriously, and in the case of KAISERREICH, no one has.

The polls say the opposite, tho

This is not about the polls this is about CAIN threatening other regions telling them to remove embassies. No one has removed their embassy.

[Tretrid]

OOC: Proof?
IC:
"Oh? Is that so?"

Just look at the factbooks. The one you claim to have Nazi imagery contains nothing of the sort. You also decided that they were Nazi, based on cherry-picked data from 3 people, some of it arguably poor evidence, instead of regional policy, which should be where you are looking. How do three people determine now an entire region thinks? Answer: They don't.

And let me bring up the smearing of embassy regions again. This is very reckless behavior and should stop being a practice of CAIN. Going around and THREATENING regions that their reputations will be SMEARED is BLACKMAIL. No one will take you seriously, and in the case of KAISERREICH, no one has.

The thing that really shocks me is that you don't take my friend seriously because he resides in KAISERREICH. You have gone so far as to even smear my friends credibility on the sole fact he resides there. Nothing else. If anything he should be more credible as he knows the region unlike the leaders of CAIN, who completely misidentified pre-Nazi imagery as Nazi imagery. He is condemning CAIN for their ignorance, stubbornness, and recklessness.

OOC: The WA has a tradition of defenestration.
"I was merely questioning the credibility of the author. I was not 'smearing him'. And I did not decide who was Nazi, or who was a collaborator. Just because I support CAIN doesn't mean that I help select who is Nazi or not. You have no proof of that. When it comes to an embassy, there are votes on whether to remove nations from the Collaborator List."

[SeattleNinja008]

Just look at the factbooks. The one you claim to have Nazi imagery contains nothing of the sort. You also decided that they were Nazi, based on cherry-picked data from 3 people, some of it arguably poor evidence, instead of regional policy, which should be where you are looking. How do three people determine now an entire region thinks? Answer: They don't.

And let me bring up the smearing of embassy regions again. This is very reckless behavior and should stop being a practice of CAIN. Going around and THREATENING regions that their reputations will be SMEARED is BLACKMAIL. No one will take you seriously, and in the case of KAISERREICH, no one has.

The thing that really shocks me is that you don't take my friend seriously because he resides in KAISERREICH. You have gone so far as to even smear my friends credibility on the sole fact he resides there. Nothing else. If anything he should be more credible as he knows the region unlike the leaders of CAIN, who completely misidentified pre-Nazi imagery as Nazi imagery. He is condemning CAIN for their ignorance, stubbornness, and recklessness.

OOC: The WA has a tradition of defenestration.
"I was merely questioning the credibility of the author. I was not 'smearing him'. And I did not decide who was Nazi, or who was a collaborator. Just because I support CAIN doesn't mean that I help select who is Nazi or not. You have no proof of that. When it comes to an embassy, there are votes on whether to remove nations from the Collaborator List."

It does not matter if there is a vote. The fact you guys automatically assume that any region that has an embassy with a "Nazi" region is a collaborator is the important detail here. It is indefensible.

[Tretrid]

"Regional embassies signal that formal diplomatic relations exist between regions."
The above statement was copy-pasted from a region's admin page.
It can be said that with establishing diplomatic relationships, one can help further the agenda of Nazism.

[Tekeristan]

"Regional embassies signal that formal diplomatic relations exist between regions."
The above statement was copy-pasted from a region's admin page.
It can be said that with establishing diplomatic relationships, one can help further the agenda of Nazism.

"Established diplomacy, in this case embassies, does not always resemble friendly relations, they can be neutral, and even enemies maintain communication.. They can also be sites of negotiation, communication, or even safe places for refugees to flee to. It ensures a flow of information, no matter how large or small."

"To name an entire region, fitted with many different states, so called 'Nazi Collaborators' is simply preposterous! Stopping the spread of hateful ideology is not done by attacking more people, by labeling them and ignoring the problems, it is done through the spread of ideas and wisdom!"

"Our nation gladly stands by our ideals of free speech to the individual, let alone entire states! The way we see it, from the reported acts of CAIN, that CAIN actively censors diplomatic efforts, thus information, no matter their intent or purpose. We understand the need to rally against hateful ideology, but by marking entire regions of 'sympathizers' only goes to create more potential allies for these hateful ideologies."

[Portugal and Brazil and Algarves]

redacted

[LollerLand]

I have voted for this resolution simply on the basis of personal experience with CAIN. My region, Nova Historiae, is an alternate history RP region that has very little, if anything, to do with what goes on in the wider NS world. We don't participate in raiding or defending and participate very little if any on this forum. We espouse no ideologies but do accept individual nations and allow them to spew whatever garbage they wish because, once again, we are alt history. Because we have very little to do with matters here we generally accept any embassy invite as long as it doesn't seem the region is in danger of disappearing tomorrow, in other words they have collected at least ten nations, and they have nothing offensive on their NS page. When I first became delegate of the region we received an invite from Kaiserreich which I approved. The region had a suitable number of members and the NS page looked like they were centered around WWI Germany, fine. Flash forward a bit and suddenly another region we have an embassy with, who is a CAIN member, is contacting me telling me that we have somehow become Nazi Sympathizers because we have an embassy with Kaiserreich.

Since that another region you have embassy with is The Universal Allegiance, let me explain.
We have never thought you were Nazi Sympathizers. I know members from Nova Historiae. There are people in high positions in our government who came from Nova Historiae. I personally contacted you because I respect your region and it's members. I was trying to convince you of the fact that holding any sort of diplomatic ties with Nazi regions will help further their agenda. I know to the surface Kaiserreich might look like a harmless region but they have always promoted Nazism in NS. A recent example to this can be Kaiserreich honoring Borduria22, a self declared Nazi and Islamophobic whose region raids innocent regions just for being non christian, with medals. I appreciate you cancelling your embassy with Kaiserreich. CAIN has never done anything worthy of a condemnation while the designated regions has done plenty.

[-Mr Money-]

"That is not my reasons for voting against. I support CAIN fully. I was just telling you that this has a very low chance of passing. Also, the author of this proposal is written by a nation who is in a region CAIN considers Nazi."

CAIN has so far been unable to provide any real evidence that KAISERREICH is even Nazi. Their evidence, as of now, is factbooks that are for role play and contain no Nazi imagery, contrary to their claim. This is also about how they profile other regions who are embassies with KAISERREICH as "Nazi Collaborators, even though at least one of them is run by Jews. While they have good intentions, in practice they are evil and go around smearing regions reputations. You are lucky there is no defamation court in NS, they would have a field day.

This.


LMFAO!

[ChicagoBoys]

CAIN is racist

[Tretrid]

"Regional embassies signal that formal diplomatic relations exist between regions."
The above statement was copy-pasted from a region's admin page.
It can be said that with establishing diplomatic relationships, one can help further the agenda of Nazism.

"Established diplomacy, in this case embassies, does not always resemble friendly relations, they can be neutral, and even enemies maintain communication.. They can also be sites of negotiation, communication, or even safe places for refugees to flee to. It ensures a flow of information, no matter how large or small."

"To name an entire region, fitted with many different states, so called 'Nazi Collaborators' is simply preposterous! Stopping the spread of hateful ideology is not done by attacking more people, by labeling them and ignoring the problems, it is done through the spread of ideas and wisdom!"

"Our nation gladly stands by our ideals of free speech to the individual, let alone entire states! The way we see it, from the reported acts of CAIN, that CAIN actively censors diplomatic efforts, thus information, no matter their intent or purpose. We understand the need to rally against hateful ideology, but by marking entire regions of 'sympathizers' only goes to create more potential allies for these hateful ideologies."

"It was originally "sympathizers" when it was being negotiated, but it seemed to have the wrong meaning. Get your facts straight. It's 'collaborator'."
OOC: Don't mind me, I'm still trying to witness this being stomped in the ground.

[SYG]

From the Osiris Fraternal Order
And the office of the Sub-Vizier of World Assembly Affairs

---

---

As Ra makes his way across the heavily sky, and the cycle of the universe continues, the people of Osiris and its prosperity of the Nile, after consulting with the community, and the gods Seshat and Ma’at, have determined to vote AGAINST the current resolution. The Pharaoh will vote according to the people, and according to Ma’at. His actions are necessary in maintaining the balance between order and chaos, truth and darkness, and Osiris will follow the Pharaoh’s direction. The government of the Osiris Fraternal Order will consider no proposal without the text meeting the requirements of Ma’at. We will continue to uphold our moral responsibilities to the people, maintaining and voting in favor of any proposals that will forward the truth and honor that is expected of all who call Osiris home. Cosmic harmony is only obtainable through expressing the will of Ma’at and the will of the Pharaoh. Although we have derived at this decision, the author of the proposal is welcome to present a case that would enlighten the Pharaoh and the community to the purpose of the proposal and perhaps change the will of the gods, the Pharaoh, and the community. If this interests you, please visit our kingdom and speak your knowledge there. All information is important, and will be presented to Seshat, the goddess of wisdom, knowledge, and writing to help direct the Pharaoh to make the right decision for the people of the fraternal order. If you have any questions about Osiris in the World Assembly, please direct them to the office of the Vizier of World Assembly Affairs by sending Syg a telegram. For more general questions regarding Osiris, please direct them to the Pharaoh, Neo Kervoskia. Thank you fellow ambassadors, and author of the current proposal at vote, for your time. Osiris, her people, and the office of the Sub-Vizier greatly appreciate your time and patience.

Best Regards,

Syg, Vizier of World Assembly Affairs

tl;dr Osiris is currently voting AGAINST

[LollerLand]

CAIN is racist

Says the person who is from Nazi Europa and has "Build the wall!!!" as his nation's motto..

[Northern Alwaincefalland]

CAIN is racist

Fascists aren't a race.

[Svarttjern]

It gives me a hearty chuckle to know that CAIN combats the Right by turning into the Right. The irony is not lost on anyone with two brain cells to rub together.

Unfortunately though since the majority of this game is Follow the Leader and the Left really doesn't have two brain cells to rub together, their shenanigans are going to continue until they inevitably fracture from internal scrabbling.

[Independent waifus]

I keep hearing this talk of a nazi agenda that "collaborators" help forward by simply having an embassy with them. Is there some kind of secret nazi cabal that is pulling the strings? Do they have some sort of mind control/hypnosis that makes people into nazi sympathizers? As a matter of fact why are you performing some kind of unholy inquisition upon the nation's and regions of nationstates in some effort to root out national socialism? Are you afraid of what they have to say? Do you not believe the people here to be intelligent enough to decide for themselves whether or not national socialism is a good or bad ideology to follow? By tearing out their tongues you do not prove them wrong, you only prove you fear what they have to say.

[USS Monitor]

Unfortunately though since the majority of this game is Follow the Leader and the Left really doesn't have two brain cells to rub together, their shenanigans are going to continue until they inevitably fracture from internal scrabbling.

*** Warned for trolling ***

[We Are Not the NSA]

Jesus, I only left NS for two weeks, how did the SC's quality threshold fall this far? I mean, it wasn't very high before, but this... this is just... wow.

The World Assembly,

Believing that the so-called "Coalition Against the Ideology of Nazism" (CAIN) doesn't speak for all regions and nations;

No shit it doesn't speak for everyone, it only speaks for those who signed it. That's how treaties work.

Aware that CAIN has taken it upon themselves to eradicate all regions they wish to label as "Nazi regions" or "Nazi collaborators";

Concerned that CAIN has labeled KAISERREICH as a Nazi region based solely on remarks jokingly made by their founder and emperor, which they rescinded and have since shown remorse for, and the imagery used by one nation in their dispatches, ignoring that it predates the ideology of Nazism;

I actually agree with these two clauses, for the most part. CAIN's definition of a 'Nazi Region' is fairly subjective, and their inclusion of the label of 'Nazi Collaborator' portrays an inherent flaw that I've always seen in the NS anti-fascist movement since I first became familiar with its practices. Strong-arming and bullying non-Nazi regions into submission/compliance is counterproductive, ensuring the creation of enemies where there could have been allies or neutral third parties, and only serves to give a faction already known for their skill in the use of propaganda ammunition to use against an otherwise legitimate cause. That said, this flaw is hardly worth condemning anyone over.

Disturbed that CAIN labels all regions with embassies to so-called "Nazi regions" as "Nazi collaborators", thereby smearing the reputations of more than 100 innocent regions, including those led by Jews and those of Jewish descent;

This is the clause, specifically the underlined section, that renders any legitimate claim this proposal otherwise has moot. Including such a cheap attempt at increasing the pathos of your argument, especially in such a crude manner, can only be described by the word for how pathos is supposed to make people feel: sad.

Denouncing such reckless behavior as counterproductive to the anti-Nazi cause;

Hereby Condemns The CAIN.

Overall, the proposal makes a few legitimate points, though none of them really justify a condemnation in my eyes, but they are undercut by the lack of quality in both the format and argument presentation throughout the proposal.

My personal opinion of CAIN is that it was formed with good intentions, but fails to truly accomplish anything new beyond letting us know that it exists. Gameplay regions from all across the spectrum have been working together against Nazi regions for years; CAIN only serves to provide a name for the system that was already in place, plus a few bells and whistles that honestly serve as the only reason a region would have not to join. CAIN's use of labels is, whether intentional or not, a fairly straight forward use of social pressure to try to invoke change in the opinions of others, which is questionable both as a strategy and as a use of ethics. That said, I agree with their overall mission statement, and therefore do not wish to impede their actions, despite my feelings regarding their policies.

[Nuame]

its not bad at all

[Svarttjern]

Unfortunately though since the majority of this game is Follow the Leader and the Left really doesn't have two brain cells to rub together, their shenanigans are going to continue until they inevitably fracture from internal scrabbling.

*** Warned for trolling ***

How is that trolling and who is specifically being trolled, dear tell.


E:
I'm not quite sure you actually know what trolling is, or you're just allowing that bias to show. Neither would surprise me.

[Northern Alwaincefalland]

*** Warned for trolling ***

How is that trolling and who is specifically being trolled, dear tell.


E:
I'm not quite sure you actually know what trolling is, or you're just allowing that bias to show. Neither would surprise me.

Well you're literally insulting people for their political views.

[Wallenburg]

*** Warned for trolling ***

How is that trolling and who is specifically being trolled, dear tell.


E:
I'm not quite sure you actually know what trolling is, or you're just allowing that bias to show. Neither would surprise me.

Yes, I'm sure that a mod has no idea what rules they are supposed to enforce.

Trolling/Baiting/Gloating: Trolling is defined as posts that are made with the aim of angering people. (like 'ALL JEWS ARE [insert vile comment here]' for example). Someone disagreeing with you does not equate to trolling. Intent is incredibly important and will be judged by the moderators to the best of their abilities. Honest belief does not excuse trolling. Disagreements are expected and conducting yourself in a civil manner is ideal. Trollbaiting is the action of making posts that attract trolls. A prime example of trollbaiting would be gloating over the results of an election.

[Vandario]

"We have voted FOR, we have first hand been threatened to be called a "Nazi collaborator" simply because we refused to close an embassy, we will govern our region as we see fit, not at the whim of some outsiders who wish to dictate to us how to run our region. I believe they also went through with it and deemed us as such. we do not bow to outsiders."