NationStates

Posted: **Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:20 pm**

I think it is rather evident that I am voting against this.

Posted: **Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:05 pm**

"We do not recognise private ownership of any means of production, and patents are state-inforced deeds to the means of production, intended to stymie the free flow of ideas and to enslave humanity to a few patent-owning corporations. As such, we're against any patent system that requires us to enforce capitalists' non-rights to exploitation of workers. While the FPA sets up a capitalist system for enforcement of 'rights' to violate other humans or nations, it also allows us to ignore it by virtue of the fact that we don't recognise patents at all."
Alex West takes a deep breath.
"As such, the effect of the FPA is further exploitation of our brothers and sisters in other parts of the world, but not for us. It is also, however, enabling us to freely share our ideas and inventions, and the increased pressure on capitalists may force the exploitation to a level where a world revolution can occur. As such, while we view the FPA as, fundamentally, a detriment to human wellbeing in most of the world, the proposed replacement is a detriment to all human wellbeing."
The Ambassador looks up from his prepared remarks to give the Assembly a stern gaze.
"We would love for the world to be rid of any oppression, patents and other forms of exploitation included, but that is not on the table today. Between the FPA as it stands, and the proposed replacement, we pick the FPA and register our vote against this repeal."
With his clenched fist, Alex West salutes his brothers and sisters in the Assembly and ends with: "Workers of the World, Unite!"

Posted: **Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:20 pm**

A smashing hit, Auralia.

Posted: **Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:49 pm**

The Aclion delegation will be voting for. Allowing nations to opt out of respecting patents allows unscrupulous nations to make an industry of undercutting inventors in the global market, undermining the entire patent system."

The delegate turns to

Attempted Socialism wrote:-snip-

"You might consider that had you and other like-minded nations not used the exemption to engage in economic warfare against other nations there might never have arisen a need for this replacement."

OCC: The replacement is unnecessarily harsh though, I think it would be acceptable for nations that do not want a patent system to opt out of it, provided there is a prohibition against them exporting patent infringing products. But Aclion is fiercely protective of property rights and has a national interest in strengthening patent laws. Not to mention any proposal that motivates the left wing to leave the WA is a success in my book.

Imperium Anglorum wrote:A smashing hit, Auralia.

That will depend on the results of the replacement vote.

Posted: **Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:00 pm**

OOC: The nation that I have in the WA has voted against, mostly on the basis that Tinfect's arguments on the 2nd page have convinced me more than anyone else's.

Posted: **Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:10 pm**

Wallenburg wrote:I think it is rather evident that I am voting against this.

Fairburn: I mean, we've had Ambassadors attempt to repeal their own resolutions before, so an Ambassador who merely supports a repeal of their own resolution would not be a strange sight.

Aclion wrote:The Aclion delegation will be voting for. Allowing nations to opt out of respecting patents allows unscrupulous nations to make an industry of undercutting inventors in the global market, undermining the entire patent system."

Fairburn: Unless you forbade unscrupulous nations to perform such acts, which doesn't require a repeal of this resolution, might I add? Still, the WA wouldn't be the WA if it didn't try to use sledgehammers to crack open nuts, would it?

Yes, we are against. (puts on shades) Deal with it.

Posted: **Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:28 pm**

Lord Dominator wrote:OOC: The nation that I have in the WA has voted against, mostly on the basis that Tinfect's arguments on the 2nd page have convinced me more than anyone else's.

OOC:
Well, at least someone actually read them, instead of peddling garbage memes like it's an argument, Actively ignoring argumention to try and 'gotcha' the opposition, and outright ignoring it, like our author here.

Moving on, needless to say, I'll be voting against this drivel.

Posted: **Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:31 pm**

"As I've stated earlier, I will vote against. I believe that Foreign Patent Act is necessary."

Posted: **Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:27 am**

Yes, there are a few loopholes in the Foreign Patent act, and I do think it should be changed, however, it still does more good than harm, and in my opinion, should not be completely repealed.

Posted: **Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:03 am**

Aclion wrote:The delegate turns to
Attempted Socialism wrote:-snip-
"You might consider that had you and other like-minded nations not used the exemption to engage in economic warfare against other nations there might never have arisen a need for this replacement."

"If that is your concern, then it will be easy to change your vote, Ambassador. The Solidarity Movement, and likeminded nations, have not used the exemption to engage in economic warfare, it's as simple as that. For us, we have allowed any nation to take advantage of the technology we have developed, and merely only required compensation if foreigners needed education here, or if Socialists are required to travel abroad to assist with setting up systems. By allowing free use of the results of our research and development, which with our education budget of nearly 50 trillion is substantial, we have given gifts to capitalists as well as our brothers and sisters worldwide."
Alex West looks out from beneath his furrowed eyebrows.
"We do not have a system for exploitation of workers, and we will not set one up. If new legislation requires us to make a mockery of all we hold dear, we will look at our options at that point in time."

OCC: Not to mention any proposal that motivates the left wing to leave the WA is a success in my book.

OOC: I know you're not the one with a proposal replacement drafted, but can people just get over it and acknowledge that enforcing private property over the means of production is an ideology ban on nations that don't have or recognise such private property?

Posted: **Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:07 am**

The Royal World Estate believes that the optionality of WA #388 introduces serious weaknesses into the patent system and make it increasingly difficult to maintain. Therefore Qualvista supports the repeal and replacement of the Act with a binding successor.

Posted: **Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:52 am**

Ravilene wrote:Yes, there are a few loopholes in the Foreign Patent act, and I do think it should be changed, however, it still does more good than harm, and in my opinion, should not be completely repealed.

This organisation's rules do not allow for partial repeals, or for the amendment of existing resolutions: 'Repeal and replace' is therefore the only approach legally possible.

(OOC: It's a matter of somebody having to determine the effects to be coded for member nations' stats if such "partial" resolutions were allowed.)

Posted: **Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:47 am**

Tinfect wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:OOC: The nation that I have in the WA has voted against, mostly on the basis that Tinfect's arguments on the 2nd page have convinced me more than anyone else's.

OOC:
Well, at least someone actually read them, instead of peddling garbage memes like it's an argument, Actively ignoring argumention to try and 'gotcha' the opposition, and outright ignoring it, like our author here.

Moving on, needless to say, I'll be voting against this drivel.

Woah, woah, woah. I wasn't ignoring it. The argument Wallenburg made that you were defending was that universal patent systems were an ideological ban on communism. I was pointing out that Communists states have indeed historically made use of patents, so that can't be the case.

For the record, here is the whole chain of conversation:

Wallenburg wrote:IC: Ogenbond frowns at the disembodied voice looking around the room for a source. "Really? That's the best you can come up with? 'It only bans communism, so it isn't really an ideological ban'? I'm rather confident that won't hold up before the Secretariat."

Auralia wrote:I never said that establishing a mandatory international patent system (like the one envisioned by the linked proposal) would "ban communism", as it obviously would not. Member states would remain free to maintain collective ownership of property, including the patent rights granted to domestic inventors granted by the proposal.

They would simply have to recognize the ownership of patents by foreign investors, which is a relatively small category of property. Such a mandate cannot possibly be construed as a ban of communism.

Moreover, the ideological ban rule states:
Proposals cannot wholly outlaw, whether through direct or indirect language, religious, political or economic ideologies. However, proposals can target specific practices, such as slavery.

Note how the rule makes clear exceptions for "specific practices" related to a particular ideology. Patents certainly qualify for this exception if slavery does.

Tinfect wrote:"Certainly not, Ambassador. Collectivization is as core to Communist ideals as a Fusion-Reactor is the a Triarius Battleship;

Western Evilly wrote:Except collectivization was rarely practiced in communist states. I think you are conflating communism with utopia.

Tinfect wrote:"And which States would thouse be, Ambassador? Our predecessor in the Union certainly practiced such with several industries, and I am certain that a number of Member-States have taken similar or greater measures. I believe you are conflating handful of failed states with an ideology."

You and Wallenburg were arguing that because collectivization is a central tenet of Communism, patents were an ideological ban. I responded by pointing out real world Communist nations that utilized patent systems.

Ravilene wrote:Yes, there are a few loopholes in the Foreign Patent act, and I do think it should be changed, however, it still does more good than harm, and in my opinion, should not be completely repealed.

You can't change resolutions. Amendments are illegal, only a repeal and replace is possible.

Attempted Socialism wrote:
OCC: Not to mention any proposal that motivates the left wing to leave the WA is a success in my book.

OOC: I know you're not the one with a proposal replacement drafted, but can people just get over it and acknowledge that enforcing private property over the means of production is an ideology ban on nations that don't have or recognise such private property?

No. It is not. Nations which do not recognize private property can indeed use patent systems. They can hold patents as an entire nation. Someone invents something in Socialism land, and then they patent it, and the State takes control of the patent and enforces it abroad as it sees fit.

Posted: **Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:36 pm**

Excidium Planetis wrote:Woah, woah, woah. I wasn't ignoring it. The argument Wallenburg made that you were defending was that universal patent systems were an ideological ban on communism. I was pointing out that Communists states have indeed historically made use of patents, so that can't be the case.

We've been over this several times. The Soviet Union was not a Socialist or Communist state, it is not in any way representative of the Socialist and Communist Ideologies.

Excidium Planetis wrote:You and Wallenburg were arguing that because collectivization is a central tenet of Communism, patents were an ideological ban. I responded by pointing out real world Communist nations that utilized patent systems.

Your refusal to recognize that an ideology which explicitly seeks the elimination of property would be made effectively invalid by a resolution that mandates the recognition of property does not an argument make. There are not, nor have there ever been, any Communist nations. Maybe Socialist, if you're a bit liberal with your definitions, but the NEP is widely considered to be the point at which the Soviet Union wholly betrayed Socialist principles. Please stop pretending that an authoritarian State-Capitalist clusterfuck whose legitimacy is wholly rejected by the vast majority of Socialists and Communists is representative of Socialist and Communist Ideology.

Posted: **Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:57 pm**

The lights in the chamber flicker and the light goes out for a few moments. When the lights return, Ambassador Geist stands near an available microphone, the previous occupant mysteriously absent. Tipping his black hat to the delegates and officials around him, he begins to speak.

"My fellow ambassadors and dignitaries, it is good to be back among you. Though I have been serving my region for a few months now in my original capacity, it seems this chamber has been far too occupied with security matters as of late. It is refreshing to be back as well as to engage in debate on public policy once more. Having said that, I must resume my career here by announcing that on behalf of The Versutian Federation, I must cast my vote for this repeal. Nothing I say can be said better than my previous ramblings on this subject back when the original resolution was debated:

The diverse needs and makeup of this assembly's nations make legislating patents incredibly difficult, and this assembly has passed and repealed multiple resolutions on this subject. Even if we believed this proposal intended to create a means to regulate patents across the varied worlds and nations of this assembly, it places a great burden on nations filing patents without guaranteeing they will be honored by other member nations and would subject them to restrictions by less than scrupulous actors. These nations acting in bad faith could bind other nations with the same rules supposedly designed to protect their intellectual property, or overlook or ignore patents entirely if they were so inclined. As if these barriers were not enough, the proposal would also penalize nations who are economically disadvantaged, a factor that has no bearing on the validity of a patent and further allows nations with more means and opportunity to benefit. The true intention of this proposal, after all, is to prevent nations from being required to recognize patents. Any mechanism this proposal contemplates is made irrelevant by a nation's ability to ignore those provisions. If we are to go through the effort to create a patent recognition system, we must do so without sanctioning intellectual property theft.

I am pleased that the vast majority of this assembly agrees with the notion of repeal, even if they do so for different reasons. Good luck with the inevitable replacement effort."

The lights flicker and go out, and when they return, Ambassador Geist is gone. In his place stands the baffled official who had been standing in that spot originally.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:53 am**

Resolution #393 of the General Assembly, a.k.a Repeal "Foreign Patent Act" will Pass, the Agency Projects.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:01 am**

WA Projection Agency wrote:
Resolution #393 of the General Assembly, a.k.a Repeal "Foreign Patent Act" will Pass, the Agency Projects.

OOC: No kidding.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:05 am**

WA Projection Agency wrote:
Resolution #393 of the General Assembly, a.k.a Repeal "Foreign Patent Act" will Pass, the Agency Projects.

OOC: What exactly is the purpose of this account?

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:41 am**

WA Projection Agency wrote:
Resolution #393 of the General Assembly, a.k.a Repeal "Foreign Patent Act" will Pass, the Agency Projects.

Are you trying to promote the lemming effect?

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:04 pm**

WA Projection Agency wrote:
Resolution #393 of the General Assembly, a.k.a Repeal "Foreign Patent Act" will Pass, the Agency Projects.

Hi, Oceania.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:49 pm**

WA Projection Agency wrote:
Resolution #393 of the General Assembly, a.k.a Repeal "Foreign Patent Act" will Pass, the Agency Projects.

???

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:12 pm**

WA Projection Agency wrote:
Resolution #393 of the General Assembly, a.k.a Repeal "Foreign Patent Act" will Pass, the Agency Projects.

Fairburn: Pass what? Pass Go? Do we need to hand over £200? I knew that we should have sent the author directly to jail.

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:18 am**

States of Glory WA Office wrote:
WA Projection Agency wrote:
Resolution #393 of the General Assembly, a.k.a Repeal "Foreign Patent Act" will Pass, the Agency Projects.

Fairburn: Pass what? Pass Go? Do we need to hand over £200? I knew that we should have sent the author directly to jail.

[OOC: *wishes once again that phpBB had a like/upvote mechanism*]

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:04 am**

Repeal "Foreign Patent Act" was passed 15,011 votes to 2,798.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:28 pm**

Tinfect wrote:We've been over this several times. The Soviet Union was not a Socialist or Communist state, it is not in any way representative of the Socialist and Communist Ideologies.

Good, I wasn't talking about the USSR. Thanks for trying, though.

Your refusal to recognize that an ideology which explicitly seeks the elimination of property would be made effectively invalid by a resolution that mandates the recognition of property does not an argument make.

That's because such a resolution is already on the books. The battle for ideological purity was already lost.

There are not, nor have there ever been, any Communist nations. Maybe Socialist, if you're a bit liberal with your definitions, but the NEP is widely considered to be the point at which the Soviet Union wholly betrayed Socialist principles. Please stop pretending that an authoritarian State-Capitalist clusterfuck whose legitimacy is wholly rejected by the vast majority of Socialists and Communists is representative of Socialist and Communist Ideology.

Well, that's nice.

I'd also like to point out that not only was there never any communist nations, there never can be, as true communism results in a stateless society. Such nations also cannot exist in the World Assembly, so I don't see how any resolution could ban them.

NationStates

[PASSED] Repeal "Foreign Patent Act"