[DEAFEATED] Condemn "Gregoryisgodistan"

[We Are Not the NSA]

As one of the more active gameplayers who participates on this forum, I'd just like to say that I do not support the idea of condemning a nation for purely in context actions, but I can be convinced in regards to a commendation. Imo, commendations and condemnations are meant as rewards/punishments for a nation's contributions to the NationStates community as a whole. As Southern Democratic States argues above, Gregoryisgodistan is a well known, well liked, and skilled roleplayer. I would much rather commend him (not saying I do or do not in this specific case) for that than condemn him for roleplaying as a dictator.

Gregoryisgodistan is the most evil nation on NS, you can't commend him, it's like commending North Korea, and I think he's worst than North Korea.

I said I would rather commend him than condemn him, but I also said that I didn't want to commend him.

[The Archregimancy]

Writing as a player, not a mod; replies encouraged in the same spirit.

I think part of the issue here is that the attempt to condemn Gregoryisgodistan is rooted almost solely in activity in NS Sports (Worldvision notwithstanding). Therefore an issue that's broadly understood and appreciated by regular participants in Sports who've had frequent cause to interact with Greg is elsewhere considered a fairly niche condemnation of a player and RP style that's not widely known outside of Sports.

I do actually think that it's encouraging on some level that SJG [the OP for the non-Sports initiated] is trying to bridge the gap between Sports and the other aspects of NS RP, but I think he needed to do more groundwork to explain the circumstances, and why it potentially matters so much to one of the site forum communities. Otherwise the lack of awareness outside of Sports of who Gregoryisgodistan is was always going to make this a hard sell.

Summed up, I very much like what SJG was trying to do here in that it encourages cross-pollination of RP outside of the sometimes insular Sports community; but the tactics perhaps weren't quite right in this specific case. Perhaps SJG might withdraw the current proposal, and then approach this differently, offering more of an opportunity to argue the case while stressing the importance of the resolution to one of the site forums (it's not just that Gregoryisgodistan is a bad nation, it's his specific role within one of the core site communities), and take on board constructive feedback before resubmitting.

[Cogoria]

I find it impossible to believe any country can have that many nuke, therefore due to gross exaggeration, I am voting against.

[Almonaster Nuevo]

Unconvincing arguments and poor grammar. Almonaster Nuevo stands opposed.

[De Dreamland]

This is an attack on dictatorships/absolute monarchies and the right for a nation to be a brutal dictatorship or an absolute monarchy. As such I will vote against this proposal and the Crooked WA Elite.

[Flemingovia]

Who? Never heard of him.

[Electrum]

From my reading, the particular player you quoted was commended for their gameplay activities in the General Assembly, not roleplaying in one of the Diplomacy forums. Yohannes' commendation (which was well deserved I might add, as I admire his GE+T threads) is entirely based on his roleplay work.

The General Assembly is very much centered around roleplay. Some of the end result may be gameside, but all of the work is based in roleplay. SP is very much a roleplayer, even if he RPs on a different forum than you do.

But if you instead meant that you haven't seen any recent commendations exclusively and unquestionably referring to roleplay, then you would be correct.

Hm, perhaps I was mistaken then. But yes, I was generally referring to the former 'Diplomacy' forums.

Regardless, it looks like this ones going to fail. Perhaps I'll rewrite it so that it is up to standard :3 I have no experience in this but I guess I could give it a crack...

[David Hameron]

Seems to be mainly a roleplay esq proposal, which is not what the Security Council is for, if I recall correctly. The security council is based around gameplay.

[Elke and Elba]

Anyway, this reeks of a self-commend/self-condemn like some of those region ones, so I'm going automatically opposed.

The two users share nothing in common apart from region (one of three, so, you know, odds are pretty good for that) and 'posting in the same subforum'.

And you would find that in the SC, virtually zero passed C&Cs have one proposing and getting commended in the same region.

Region alone is already a very big marker here, which you might not know since you're new around here.

[Hannasea]

Perhaps it is the unwillingness for roleplayers to engage in gameplay, or perhaps because no one (active) in our community has the experience to both write a resolution and advocate for it but definitely something needs to be done.

Or perhaps it's because the Security Council was specifically created to deal with gameplay ([violet] wanted to see whether the WA would vote to "condemn" Macedon, as a prelude to introducing a Liberation proposal category). There is no need for "balance", or rather, the proper balance would be an even more exclusive focus on gameplay.

In the Games of the IX Olympiad, one of the largest events of the forum held annually, he caused an international incident whereby one of his athletes caused the attempted murder of one athlete, and indirectly caused the death of a monarch of another nation. Yes, this was controversial OOCly,

Damn right it was. That roleplay arc ground the Games to a halt and a number of players voiced their frustration at the increasing domination of that storyline; some admitted they had lost interest in participating altogether. That is not an action that deserves to rewarded with recognition.

[Topid]

The two users share nothing in common apart from region (one of three, so, you know, odds are pretty good for that) and 'posting in the same subforum'.

And you would find that in the SC, virtually zero passed C&Cs have one proposing and getting commended in the same region.

Region alone is already a very big marker here, which you might not know since you're new around here.

I was in TSP when I wrote Commend Fudge. Sedge and CG were in the same region when they wrote each other's. I'm sure there's quite a few other examples I can't remember right now.

[Pierconium]

Why is this a thing?

[Kernansquillec]

Kernansquillec fully supports condemning Gregoryisgodistan. While the global international community may not be aware of their violence and abuse, those nations who have had to interact with their sporting representatives have all expressed dismay at what they have seen.

[Bears Armed]

Region alone is already a very big marker here, which you might not know since you're new around here.

OOC
A very high proportion of the 'NS Sports' regulars have collected together as communities in just three regions: Atlantian Oceania, Rushmore, and Esportiva.

[The Archregimancy]

Why is this a thing?

It's an attempt by some nations active in NS Sports to IC'ly condemn a nation that's IC'ly notorious in Sports.

It's a relatively big thing in Sports terms, but a relative lack of engagement between Sports and other sections of NS, and a lack of understanding on both sides of the discussion of the sometimes distinctive cultures of different parts of NS, is leading to some misunderstandings.

[Sedgistan]

Perhaps it is the unwillingness for roleplayers to engage in gameplay, or perhaps because no one (active) in our community has the experience to both write a resolution and advocate for it but definitely something needs to be done.

Or perhaps it's because the Security Council was specifically created to deal with gameplay ([violet] wanted to see whether the WA would vote to "condemn" Macedon, as a prelude to introducing a Liberation proposal category). There is no need for "balance", or rather, the proper balance would be an even more exclusive focus on gameplay.

Original intent isn't something that should necessarily dictate how things work going forward. Many parts of the game have evolved far beyond what Max and Violet once intended for them, and have done so for the better.

He may have got many things wrong, but one of the things that Unibot definitely got right was seeing the potential for the Security Council to be a place where all communities of the game could recognise each other's achievements, and he made an effort to encourage this with his authoring in the SC's early days.

If the resolution doesn't pass, it should be because the text and campaign were lacking, or the nominee themselves weren't considered significant enough within their field, not because NS Sports as a whole isn't thought worthy of recognition.

[Electrum]

I'll answer in reverse order.

In the Games of the IX Olympiad, one of the largest events of the forum held annually, he caused an international incident whereby one of his athletes caused the attempted murder of one athlete, and indirectly caused the death of a monarch of another nation. Yes, this was controversial OOCly,

Damn right it was. That roleplay arc ground the Games to a halt and a number of players voiced their frustration at the increasing domination of that storyline; some admitted they had lost interest in participating altogether. That is not an action that deserves to rewarded with recognition.

I should note that I too, like you, became turned off from the event because of that roleplay, however everyone here asked what made GGS so uniquely special compared to the other nations with a similar style and was the first event that I remembered off the top of my head. You might not like it, but it was merely an illustration of the point I was trying to make -- that might not be an action that deserves to be rewarded with recognition, but he's done plenty of others which is deserving.

Perhaps it is the unwillingness for roleplayers to engage in gameplay, or perhaps because no one (active) in our community has the experience to both write a resolution and advocate for it but definitely something needs to be done.

Or perhaps it's because the Security Council was specifically created to deal with gameplay ([violet] wanted to see whether the WA would vote to "condemn" Macedon, as a prelude to introducing a Liberation proposal category). There is no need for "balance", or rather, the proper balance would be an even more exclusive focus on gameplay.

I think Sedge said it aptly, so I won't labour on the point too much, but I definitely think that there are many people on the Diplomacy forums who have spent just as much time writing roleplays or what have you compared to people defending regions or writing GA resolutions and that deserves some form of recognition. There's a mechanism to be used. It's been used before in the manner that I described. I admit SJG kind of rushed into doing these things, but you cannot deny that the fact that this reached quorum means that at least some people gave some value to recognising roleplay in some form.

Interestingly, the last roleplay commendation (uninvolved with the GA) was borne from the Liberate Haven fiasco a few years ago.

[Hannasea]

If the resolution doesn't pass, it should be because the text and campaign were lacking, or the nominee themselves weren't considered significant enough within their field, not because NS Sports as a whole isn't thought worthy of recognition.

Maybe it "should", but that doesn't appear to be the case.

I should note that I too, like you, became turned off from the event because of that roleplay, however everyone here asked what made GGS so uniquely special compared to the other nations with a similar style and was the first event that I remembered off the top of my head. You might not like it, but it was merely an illustration of the point I was trying to make -- that might not be an action that deserves to be rewarded with recognition, but he's done plenty of others which is deserving.

So you're justifying giving an award to someone whose behavior was so OOC disruptive that the host of the roleplay admitted they'd wished they'd taken harsher punitive action (and was only prevented from doing so because removing entries is so onerous in xkoranate) on the fact that it was "unique"? Well, yes, it's true: almost everyone else has been able to play in the Olympics without spoiling it for others, but that's not really a good argument for rewarding the behavior of those incapable of doing so.

I think Sedge said it aptly, so I won't labour on the point too much, but I definitely think that there are many people on the Diplomacy forums who have spent just as much time writing roleplays or what have you compared to people defending regions or writing GA resolutions and that deserves some form of recognition.

Again, you seem to be conflating gameplay and GA play: the GA is a roleplay forum that has far more in common to do with what goes on in the Diplomacy forums, and basically nothing bar an artificial mechanical connection with gameplay.

There's a mechanism to be used. It's been used before in the manner that I described. I admit SJG kind of rushed into doing these things, but you cannot deny that the fact that this reached quorum means that at least some people gave some value to recognising roleplay in some form.

If this was a manual campaign, getting it to quorum was impressive.

If this was a scripted or stamp campaign, then it should be noted that almost anything can get to quorum that way.

Interestingly, the last roleplay commendation (uninvolved with the GA) was borne from the Liberate Haven fiasco a few years ago.

I genuinely don't understand this argument - that whole thing was an unmitigated disaster that we predicted would happen - and if anything it's just evidence of how the two communities, roleplay (II, Sports, GA, etc.) and gameplay, are completely incompatible.

[The Greater Siriusian Domain]

Teran Saber: "A nation like Gregoryisgodistan is nothing BUT a condemnable abomination. Therefore, the Greater Siriusian Domain votes for the condemnation of the abominable, condemnable abomination that is Gregoryisgodistan."

OOC: Voting for, simply because all this condemnation does is add a badge to Gregoryisgodistan and thus reinforces the fact that Gregoryisgodistan is a card-carrying villain nation played for laughs.

[Elke and Elba]

Region alone is already a very big marker here, which you might not know since you're new around here.

OOC
A very high proportion of the 'NS Sports' regulars have collected together as communities in just three regions: Atlantian Oceania, Rushmore, and Esportiva.

(I realised this IC below is rather OOC)

Alethea quipped, "May I ask the Urrsish delegate then, why would it be the Security Council's business to acquiesce to the demands of one community, given that said community has never cared for nor given aflying flute for this Security Council until it needed to pass a condemnation of little value to one of its own kind?"

[Imperial Republic of Shadow]

As the World Assembly, it is our duty to condemn nations that violate the standards for human rights that we as a body have enspoused. In addition that this country has immediately threatened to Nuke its enemies upon passage of this means he is attempting to blackmail and extort this body and as such has more than earned the condemnation of this body.

The imperial republic of shadow hereby offers to extend its anti-missile cruisers and nuclear defense fleet to assist any nation threatened by retaliatory response. We specialize in air force and naval missile defense even if we do not keep a large volume of offensive arms.

[The Archregimancy]

OOC
A very high proportion of the 'NS Sports' regulars have collected together as communities in just three regions: Atlantian Oceania, Rushmore, and Esportiva.

(I realised this IC below is rather OOC)

Alethea quipped, "May I ask the Urrsish delegate then, why would it be the Security Council's business to acquiesce to the demands of one community, given that said community has never cared for nor given aflying flute for this Security Council until it needed to pass a condemnation of little value to one of its own kind?"

Because encouraging expanded interaction between different parts of the broader NS community rather than turning that community into a series of isolated insular sub-communities that never interact and whose internal culture is wholly opaque to outsiders is, in the end, fundamentally a good thing.

This discussion is already showing the impact of different approaches when it comes to the expectations of those sub-communities. Fostering a little interaction here might go some way to breaking down the barriers caused by those different expectations. And who knows, it might also encourage a few more Sports people to interact a bit more with the SC, and more SC people to interact with Sports.

Telling the Sports people who are looking to engage with the SC here to bugger off because they haven't had much to do with the SC before is hardly likely to encourage them into more frequent engagement in the future.

[Drawkland]

Seems to be mainly a roleplay esq proposal, which is not what the Security Council is for, if I recall correctly. The security council is based around gameplay.

False.

From the SC Rules discussion thread:

You can still commend or condemn a person, an RPd character, or an action, event or philosophy.

[Hannasea]

And who knows, it might also encourage a few more Sports people to interact a bit more with the SC, and more SC people to interact with Sports.

Can I point out the down-side to that? The Security Council is the only thing in the entire NationStates game that you cannot opt out of. You do not have to answer issues, roleplay, engage in R/D, join the WA, post on the forum, or anything else, but you cannot opt out of being recognized by the Security Council. If the WA passes a resolution you don't like, you can resign; if someone roleplays a topic you don't like, you can fire the IGNORE cannons; but if the SC passes a Commendation/Condemnation, you cannot evade it even if you want nothing to do with it. The fundamental unfairness of this imbalance is very unlikely to ever be redressed but it can at least be mitigated by hoping the SC simply won't take interact much with non-gameplayers.

If you encourage the SC to take notice of Sports RPers, there is a danger they will end up forcing real damage on people who enjoy roleplaying sports but don't want to recognize the in-character Security Council.

[San Jose Guayabal]

If you encourage the SC to take notice of Sports RPers, there is a danger they will end up forcing real damage on people who enjoy roleplaying sports but don't want to recognize the in-character Security Council.

Why it'd pose "danger" on certain RPers who don't want to recognize the Security Council? At the end, everybody can recognize or not recognize and that's not "danger" worthy for anybody, it'd not marginalize users by the mere fact of it, we have more bonds that could reduce that "danger", apart of being a non significant or maybe bad assumption.