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by Pierconium » Sun May 08, 2016 12:52 pm
by Sciongrad » Sun May 08, 2016 1:15 pm
Pierconium wrote:No one is claiming that people can't make informed decisions, just that in many instances people don't care about the specifics of the vote and do just vote with the majority.
Continuing to spout ad nauseum about how I am somehow mischaracterising individual voters is a disingenuous argument and not supported. The fact that those speaking against this truth can only cite one or two examples makes the point. It happens regularly for a reason.
Many people can't be bothered to take the time to research all the facts of a given situation and just go with the winning side, especially if the early vote gathers a sizeable proportion of the large delegate votes.
by Imperium Anglorum » Sun May 08, 2016 3:34 pm
Sciongrad wrote:The most recent resolution, GAR#369, overcame a 1000+ vote stack against. There are countless examples of the "lemming effect" being overcome. You are making arguments without any evidence.
by Sciongrad » Sun May 08, 2016 4:14 pm
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Sciongrad wrote:The most recent resolution, GAR#369, overcame a 1000+ vote stack against. There are countless examples of the "lemming effect" being overcome. You are making arguments without any evidence.
This does not escape the fact that the majority of the time, the lemming effect is something that is very relevant. Furthermore, the only real way that effect can be overcome is by something like the 369 GA, which capitalised on the left-leaning nature of the majority of NationStates.
by Imperium Anglorum » Sun May 08, 2016 5:33 pm
Sciongrad wrote:Imperium Anglorum wrote:This does not escape the fact that the majority of the time, the lemming effect is something that is very relevant. Furthermore, the only real way that effect can be overcome is by something like the 369 GA, which capitalised on the left-leaning nature of the majority of NationStates.
The so-called "left-leaning" majority is very sporadic in their activity, then, because there was no collective effort to pass basic legal rights. But I digress. Even if your observation is correct, it still demonstrates that individual players have agency and vote according to their own opinions and thoughts on proposals.
by Pierconium » Sun May 08, 2016 11:32 pm
by Imperium Anglorum » Mon May 09, 2016 1:11 am
by Cormactopia II » Mon May 09, 2016 1:22 am
by Guy » Mon May 09, 2016 4:02 am
Pierconium wrote:Sciongrad, you seem to be missing the point, possibly intentionally regardless of stated disclaimers.
You are able to point to one instance of an early stack being overcome. The exception does not make the rule. It happens quite often.
I have not stated that this was the only reason the vote failed. I did state that certain regions admitted that this was their intent and that they did so because of the author. That's it. Everything else you are spouting on about is a figment of your imagination. Your attempts to mislabel me fail, but please, feel free to continue.
[violet] wrote:Never underestimate the ability of admin to do nothing.
by Sedgistan » Mon May 09, 2016 4:48 am
Ridersyl wrote:Pierconium wrote:No luck needed. I watched the vote tally and have done for many in the past.
Luckily for you, though, your side won so you can say whatever you wish. If the vote had been stacked in the positive then you would possibly be singing a different tune about its effectiveness now. Who knows?
I know who knows. Those aliens that go into alternate dimensions. Maybe there's one where the TSP forums got rid of their worst admin.
by RiderSyl » Mon May 09, 2016 4:53 am
Sciongrad wrote:Alright, come off it. Are you actually going to pretend that you're not making the exact argument GR claims you're making?
Sciongrad wrote:I know who knows. Those aliens that go into alternate dimensions.
Very convincing argument. How long did it take you to think up that one?
Guy wrote:I think he's pointed to far more than one example by now. He's actually been quite convincing in making out the point that the lemming effect, while existent, is far smaller than commonly conceived.
by Pierconium » Mon May 09, 2016 7:05 am
Guy wrote:Pierconium wrote:Sciongrad, you seem to be missing the point, possibly intentionally regardless of stated disclaimers.
You are able to point to one instance of an early stack being overcome. The exception does not make the rule. It happens quite often.
I have not stated that this was the only reason the vote failed. I did state that certain regions admitted that this was their intent and that they did so because of the author. That's it. Everything else you are spouting on about is a figment of your imagination. Your attempts to mislabel me fail, but please, feel free to continue.
I think he's pointed to far more than one example by now. He's actually been quite convincing in making out the point that the lemming effect, while existent, is far smaller than commonly conceived.
by Sciongrad » Mon May 09, 2016 7:31 am
Pierconium wrote:I only see one example being put forward. Even if he produces two (or three) that does not change my point. The exception does not make the rule. Far more often than not, the so-called lemming effect is a factor.
Pierconium wrote:Which, incidentally, still isn't my actual point. Several regions did stack this vote and admitted to it, and the reason given by some was the author. How has any of the rest of this drivel detracted from that at all? Just because someone comes in and says 'well sometimes the lemming effect doesn't work' does not discredit anything that those others have stated about their own actions.
Pierconium wrote:I contend that TSP was completely irrelevant to the outcome of this vote and that the majority of those voting in the negative have done so because of the initial vote stacking, as is often the case for these sorts of things. I highly doubt that the vast majority of those voting have any actual concern about the initial Condemnation or the merits of this repeal.
by Imperium Anglorum » Mon May 09, 2016 7:37 am
Sciongrad wrote:Pierconium wrote:I only see one example being put forward. Even if he produces two (or three) that does not change my point. The exception does not make the rule. Far more often than not, the so-called lemming effect is a factor.
In my initial post, I actually cited indirectly GAR#323, GAR#325, GAR#369, and a failed repeal of GAR#286. Three of theses are just resolutions I've submitted on this nation. I know, and I have no doubt that you know, that it is a statistical impossibility that only my resolutions overcome the lemming effect. I cannot cite more directly because the World Assembly doesn't keep time-series stats, but there are countless examples. The lemming effect is overcome on a regular basis.
by Sciongrad » Mon May 09, 2016 7:41 am
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Sciongrad wrote:In my initial post, I actually cited indirectly GAR#323, GAR#325, GAR#369, and a failed repeal of GAR#286. Three of theses are just resolutions I've submitted on this nation. I know, and I have no doubt that you know, that it is a statistical impossibility that only my resolutions overcome the lemming effect. I cannot cite more directly because the World Assembly doesn't keep time-series stats, but there are countless examples. The lemming effect is overcome on a regular basis.
I hate to bring up 325 GA 'Responsible Arms Trading' up, since it was most certainly the worst point in relations between us, but it did not overcome the lemming effect. The lemming effect brought it to vote.
by Imperium Anglorum » Mon May 09, 2016 7:44 am
Sciongrad wrote:
Thank you for that. I retract that particular claim. I am likely misremembering which resolution it was then. Permanent time-series stats would be useful for conversations just like this one!
by Pierconium » Mon May 09, 2016 7:51 am
by Sciongrad » Mon May 09, 2016 7:52 am
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Sciongrad wrote:Thank you for that. I retract that particular claim. I am likely misremembering which resolution it was then. Permanent time-series stats would be useful for conversations just like this one!
All here: http://54.226.41.75/the_north_pacific_wa_vote_reports/
by Sciongrad » Mon May 09, 2016 7:57 am
Pierconium wrote:Ah, my mistake, you provided 4 examples, not three. How does that not make them still exceptions?
by Pierconium » Mon May 09, 2016 8:15 am
Sciongrad wrote:Pierconium wrote:Ah, my mistake, you provided 4 examples, not three. How does that not make them still exceptions?
You claimed I provided one. With the tool IA just provided, I cited another 10 (only including GAR#315-358). If I (or anyone) took to the time to dig through that entire list, you'll no doubt find dozens of example. But I don't think this argument has the possibility of being very fruitful at this point. I'll reiterate a final time that I have no opinion on this particular issue. My only reason for posting in this thread is specifically to discuss the scope of the lemming effect.
by Sciongrad » Mon May 09, 2016 12:27 pm
Pierconium wrote:Yes, I can concede that the lemming effect may not be as regularly impactful in the GA, but that is a different beast altogether. The negative connotations associated with the condemnation, and the inverse positive connotations of the commendations, could, and seem to based on the evidence, trigger a more empathic vote for the majority.
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