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[DEFEATED] WA Peacekeeping Charter

A carefully preserved record of the most notable World Assembly debates.

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Excidium Planetis
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Founded: May 01, 2014
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Postby Excidium Planetis » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:39 pm

Tzorsland wrote:I don't want to be overly annoying, but what is this damn "role play" you are referring to? The Role Playing groups in NS generally don't even acknowledge the existence of the WA in the first place. Role playing in the WA/GA forum is confined to the drafting and debating of resolutions is done by the smallest fraction of people who actively participate in WA GA resolution voting. There is no real nation based forum where national compliance with WA resolutions are carried out. This is the sad truth. Gnomes are a practical solution to the problem.

"Realism?" Please give me a break. You have to redesign everything from the ground up, and I don't mean the game, I mean the players!

And don't get me started on what you need to do on a game mechanic basis. In spite of what everyone claims is true, there is no mechanism that keeps member nations from selecting daily issues in blatant violation of WA law which they are supposed to faithfully maintain even though it was passed before they joined and never stat wanked them in the first place.


I'm not really sure who you are talking to. Auralia didn't say anything about role play, but nothing you said really has anything to do with what I said.

Auralia wrote:I don't understand your position. It's not necessary to roleplay a failed World Assembly peacekeeping mission to realize that sending unarmed peacekeepers into a conflict zone will be a disaster, and to take that into account when drafting a World Assembly resolution. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, nobody directly roleplays the consequences of international legislation; that hasn't stopped ambassadors from criticizing proposals for having likely adverse effects.

Speak for yourself. I roleplay the consequences of WA legislation all the time.

And no, sending unarmed gnomes will not have any disastrous effects. Firstly, because a million gnomes could die and no one would suffer for it. Secondly, because the WA already sends gnomes to into conflict zones. We already have committees for international mediation, monitoring ceasefires, overseeing elections, disarming mines, etc... all activities the Peacekeepers are tasked with doing. Sending more will not be worse.

I accept the rules state that we can't name specific people to sit on committees. I don't see how that is an impediment to realism.

It isn't. It's the rules stating that we can't specify "how members are chosen, and term lengths" that is the problem. We can't say, for example, that the International Criminal Court Mk 2 will be staffed by 9 judges with life terms, who have to pass an examination... and these are things that a real life legislative body would do.

A great deal of real-life international legislation leaves the details of committee membership to bureaucracies as well.

It doesn't often leave the selection process totally up to... nobody, honestly. Not a single WA resolution specifies who chooses to staff committees, so there is no "bureaucracy" to leave the details to... staff must either select themselves (how realistic, people just choosing to be on a committee!) or literally spring into existence as WA staff members.

However, the rules emphatically do not state that committees are staffed by magical gnomes, or that these gnomes are infallible. In my view, World Assembly committees are staffed by human beings who can be corrupt or make mistakes or exceed their mandate, just like anybody else.

Where do those humans come from? Who said they could be on the committee? By what authority did that person or persons say they could be on the committee? Why only humans, and not Birrin or Bears or Sapient Plants or Indevians or robotic K9s or anything else that has wandered these halls? Can these humans be fired? Who decides how much they get paid?

In real life, the WA would have, at the very least, established who was responsible for selecting staff members, and who decided the budget. Instead, the entire WA bureaucracy must create itself, as the staff have almost no rules governing their operations. That's just not realistic.
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Grand Freedonia
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Postby Grand Freedonia » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:55 pm

"The Freedonian Ambassador most respectfully takes issue with this draft. First, our delegation wishes to say that, although we do not plan on offensive action towards other WA members, we assert our right as a sovereign nation to use military force against whomever we deem necessary. Second, our delegation feels adequately protected as we all carry firearms at all times, but we think it best that their be armed WA security for nations who do not have armed emissaries. We also would like to add that we feel a re-hashing of old peace agreements is unnecessary. Thanks to all the delegates for their consideration and goodwill in keeping world peace."
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Excidium Planetis
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Postby Excidium Planetis » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:59 pm

Grand Freedonia wrote:"The Freedonian Ambassador most respectfully takes issue with this draft. First, our delegation wishes to say that, although we do not plan on offensive action towards other WA members, we assert our right as a sovereign nation to use military force against whomever we deem necessary.

"I most certainly agree, Ambassador." Blackbourne affirms. "My nation definitely believes in the right of nations to use military force, and has long opposed attempts by the WA to restrict that right. It has been a losing battle over the years, I am afraid. I don't think this position is terribly relevant to this draft, however, which does not address nation to nation warfare."

Second, our delegation feels adequately protected as we all carry firearms at all times, but we think it best that their be armed WA security for nations who do not have armed emissaries.

"Such emissaries should travel with armed guards if they do not feel safe here."

We also would like to add that we feel a re-hashing of old peace agreements is unnecessary. Thanks to all the delegates for their consideration and goodwill in keeping world peace."

"I am afraid I do not know to what part of the draft you are referring to."
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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:16 pm

Grand Freedonia wrote:Second, our delegation feels adequately protected as we all carry firearms at all times, but we think it best that their be armed WA security for nations who do not have armed emissaries.

PARSONS: (hands them a copy of 22 GA)

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Excidium Planetis
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Postby Excidium Planetis » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:30 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
Grand Freedonia wrote:Second, our delegation feels adequately protected as we all carry firearms at all times, but we think it best that their be armed WA security for nations who do not have armed emissaries.

PARSONS: (hands them a copy of 22 GA)


"Is that a copy of GA number twenty-two, Lord Parsons?" Blackbourne says. "Would you like to point out where WA nations are prohibited from sending assassins or military personnel with the express goal of killing other Ambassadors to the WA?"
Current Ambassador: Adelia Meritt
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:47 am

Excidium Planetis wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:PARSONS: (hands them a copy of 22 GA)


"Is that a copy of GA number twenty-two, Lord Parsons?" Blackbourne says. "Would you like to point out where WA nations are prohibited from sending assassins or military personnel with the express goal of killing other Ambassadors to the WA?"

"It makes sense that in the ambiguity of the language of clause seven, the WA's territory at the WAHQ could be viewed in the context of a national entity. We are sent to represent our nations at the World Assembly, which has sovereign territory and its own rules governing that territory. That is functionally identical to a nation for the purposes of territoriality, and there isn't any reason to suspect that this law wouldn't reasonably apply to diplomats sent to the World Assembly. Certainly, its within the intention of the law: to protect diplomats who willingly put themselves in the care of a foreign jurisdiction.

"After all, suggesting this isn't how your (not you, personally, Ambassador Blackbourne, or your government specifically, but the holder of such views generally) nation views the law would only open up the belief that such an attack on your delegation wouldn't be viewed as a violation of international law. It seems wildly imprudent for any delegation to suggest it views such actions in a context that robs the act of most of it's deterrence value."

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Excidium Planetis
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Postby Excidium Planetis » Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:36 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:"It makes sense that in the ambiguity of the language of clause seven, the WA's territory at the WAHQ could be viewed in the context of a national entity. We are sent to represent our nations at the World Assembly, which has sovereign territory and its own rules governing that territory. That is functionally identical to a nation for the purposes of territoriality, and there isn't any reason to suspect that this law wouldn't reasonably apply to diplomats sent to the World Assembly. Certainly, its within the intention of the law: to protect diplomats who willingly put themselves in the care of a foreign jurisdiction.

"After all, suggesting this isn't how your (not you, personally, Ambassador Blackbourne, or your government specifically, but the holder of such views generally) nation views the law would only open up the belief that such an attack on your delegation wouldn't be viewed as a violation of international law. It seems wildly imprudent for any delegation to suggest it views such actions in a context that robs the act of most of it's deterrence value."

"Maintaining that the WA is a nation is both illogical and not in my nation's interests. Indeed, such an interpretation violates GA#2, which states in its third article that member states have 'the duty to refrain from unrequested intervention in the internal or external economic, political, religious, and social affairs of any other NationState'. Considering the WA as a nation-state would prevent unrequested intervention in the WA, and yet nations interfere with WA even today.

"Deterrence value is only useful so long as a nation wishes to deter such actions. My government prefers to have options on the table and trust in our own security measures to defend us, especially as any nation determined to kill off our delegation could do so without respect to the law."
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Excidium Planetis
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Postby Excidium Planetis » Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:50 pm

"Oh, by the way, this was submitted." Blackbourne casually remarks as he retreats to the fortified section of the Excidian WA Office.

Sergeant Timmons looks concerned.
Current Ambassador: Adelia Meritt
Ex-Ambassador: Cornelia Schultz, author of GA#355 and GA#368.
#MakeLegislationFunnyAgain
Singaporean Transhumans wrote:You didn't know about Excidium? The greatest space nomads in the NS multiverse with a healthy dose (read: over 9000 percent) of realism?
Saveyou Island wrote:"Warmest welcomes to the Assembly, ambassador. You'll soon learn to hate everyone here."
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Digital Network Defence is pretty meh
Tier 9 nation, according to my index.Made of nomadic fleets.


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Normlpeople
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Postby Normlpeople » Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:17 pm

Clover poked her head into the debate hall, having recovered enough to return to her duties as Ambassador. Her intern had performed admirably in voting but saying nothing.

"Not entitely sure the category is correct" Clover spoke up, reading the draft "However, I see nothing objectionable given that we may deny these peacekeepers permission to operate in the kingdom and we are not required to send personnel. Tenetive support".
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Excidium Planetis
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Postby Excidium Planetis » Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:01 pm

Normlpeople wrote:"Not entitely sure the category is correct" Clover spoke up, reading the draft "However, I see nothing objectionable given that we may deny these peacekeepers permission to operate in the kingdom and we are not required to send personnel. Tenetive support".


Sergeant Timmons breaks out in sweat. He quickly towels himself off as he presses Blackbourne's prerecorded responses number #10 (Category choice) and #11 (Strength).

Blackbourne's voice emanates from the speakers. "The Category was chosen as Global Disarmament specifically to cater to pacifist interests. Obviously, such interests are not my nation's, but this proposal was never going to get warmonger support so it was designed to be palatable to the militant faction and positive for peace-lovers. As the resolution gives a general encouragement of peacekeeping, a deweaponization of the WA as an organization, and broad mandates to assist in disarming and peace negotiation, the net impact on defense budgets is expected to be negative."

There is a pause before response #11 plays. "As the resolution has very few mandates on member nations, and those that are mandates are of minor impact, the proposal strength was chosen as Mild."

Timmons then plays Blackbourne response number #19: "Thank you for your support, Ambassador. It is a shame I am not here in person."
Last edited by Excidium Planetis on Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Current Ambassador: Adelia Meritt
Ex-Ambassador: Cornelia Schultz, author of GA#355 and GA#368.
#MakeLegislationFunnyAgain
Singaporean Transhumans wrote:You didn't know about Excidium? The greatest space nomads in the NS multiverse with a healthy dose (read: over 9000 percent) of realism?
Saveyou Island wrote:"Warmest welcomes to the Assembly, ambassador. You'll soon learn to hate everyone here."
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Digital Network Defence is pretty meh
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The Puddle Jumping Wads of Wrapper
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Postby The Puddle Jumping Wads of Wrapper » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:34 am

ARI: Ambassador Blackbourne, thank you for inviting us to comm... ummm... (Ari looks around the hall, then looks to Wad Ahume, who shrugs.) Erm. Anyway, we the Puddle Jumping Wads of Wrapper have supported this resolution and, as promised, should this pass, will support a repeal of GAR#2. That said, we do have a concern with the final version of this proposal. We are worried that, as written, this might contradict GAR#2, which states that "the WA will not engage in commanding, organising, ratifying, denouncing, or otherwise participating in armed conflicts, police actions, or military activities under the WA banner." Can you... erm... can someone, anyone, ease our troubled minds and explain why this doesn't contradict existing legislation?
The General Assembly Delegation of the Puddle Jumping Wads of Wrapper:
-- Wad Ari Alaz, Wrapperian Ambassador to the WA; Author, SCR#200, GAR #300, GAR#361.
-- Wad Ahume Orliss-Dorcke, Deputy Ambassador; two-time Intergalactic Karaoke League champion.
-- Wad Dawei DeGoah, Ambassador Emeritus; deceased.
THE GA POSTS FROM THIS NATION ARE IN-CHARACTER AND SHOULD NEVER BE TAKEN AS MODERATOR RULINGS.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:19 am

Excidium Planetis wrote:
"Oh, by the way, this was submitted." Blackbourne casually remarks as he retreats to the fortified section of the Excidian WA Office.

Sergeant Timmons looks concerned.

If that is the case, why not change the title?

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Varvuk
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Postby Varvuk » Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:03 am

i doubt these WA Peacekeepers will prevent anything, like crimes against humanity, genocide.
What purpose will they have in peace talks and under whos authority, and what if both sides involved in war declare to not to accept or obey peacekeepers suggestions.

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New Constitution of Lost Earth
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Postby New Constitution of Lost Earth » Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:42 am

Varvuk wrote:i doubt these WA Peacekeepers will prevent anything, like crimes against humanity, genocide.
What purpose will they have in peace talks and under whos authority, and what if both sides involved in war declare to not to accept or obey peacekeepers suggestions.

Some officer looked up from the proposal "By WA law, the member nations must comply, and it will only effect WA members, most likely used for things as riots, or as the name states and says keeping peace. You could call it some version of the police, but it isnt"
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Auralia
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Postby Auralia » Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:45 am

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New Constitution of Lost Earth
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Postby New Constitution of Lost Earth » Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:50 am


"Ahh yes, it is not stated how the Peacekeepers will keep the peace, they could throw flowers at them, though that wouldnt work."
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The Puddle Jumping Wads of Wrapper
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Postby The Puddle Jumping Wads of Wrapper » Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:25 am

New Constitution of Lost Earth wrote:

"Ahh yes, it is not stated how the Peacekeepers will keep the peace, they could throw flowers at them, though that wouldnt work."

ARI: (shrugs) Works just fine in our nation.
The General Assembly Delegation of the Puddle Jumping Wads of Wrapper:
-- Wad Ari Alaz, Wrapperian Ambassador to the WA; Author, SCR#200, GAR #300, GAR#361.
-- Wad Ahume Orliss-Dorcke, Deputy Ambassador; two-time Intergalactic Karaoke League champion.
-- Wad Dawei DeGoah, Ambassador Emeritus; deceased.
THE GA POSTS FROM THIS NATION ARE IN-CHARACTER AND SHOULD NEVER BE TAKEN AS MODERATOR RULINGS.

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Excidium Planetis
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Postby Excidium Planetis » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:27 am

The Puddle Jumping Wads of Wrapper wrote:ARI: Ambassador Blackbourne, thank you for inviting us to comm... ummm... (Ari looks around the hall, then looks to Wad Ahume, who shrugs.) Erm. Anyway, we the Puddle Jumping Wads of Wrapper have supported this resolution and, as promised, should this pass, will support a repeal of GAR#2. That said, we do have a concern with the final version of this proposal. We are worried that, as written, this might contradict GAR#2, which states that "the WA will not engage in commanding, organising, ratifying, denouncing, or otherwise participating in armed conflicts, police actions, or military activities under the WA banner." Can you... erm... can someone, anyone, ease our troubled minds and explain why this doesn't contradict existing legislation?

Sergeant Timmons plays Blackbourne response #3. "Ah, Contradiction: Many have claimed that this is a contradiction of GA#2, specifically the military involvement clause. I respectfully disagree. The proposal does not expressly allow the Peacekeepers to participate in armed conflicts or military actions of any kind. It comes down to police actions, but as the police have a wide variety of actions that previous WA organizations have participated partially in, and the Peacekeepers are not supposed to be a police force and are not granted the authority to enforce laws, I maintain that they are not participating in police actions."



Timmons switches to Blackbourne response #1: "Ah, I expected this, only sooner. Timmons, notify me when this challenge occurs. I'll be right there."

Timmons quickly sends a message to the real Blackbourne.




Well, IA stomped this. Things are not looking good.
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Vitami
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Postby Vitami » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:00 pm

This policy as the potential risk of making the WA become rulers of the globe. I also worry my nation being a target by 'peacekeeping' nations as in the imperial republic every man and woman is in the military and our children are taught from birth to serve when they come of age. Both I and the ministry have that this resolution cannot pass so to insure our people's identity is not crushed by outsiders who detest the art of war

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Da-Teria
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Postby Da-Teria » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:08 pm

I'm sorry, but my knee jerk reaction when I hear "peacekeeping" is that it's a mask for totalitarianism.
Obviously a take over wouldn't happen over night, but this is taking one of the first steps to a NWO.
For now I'll be against the decision, but I'll make sure to read through the whole article.

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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:09 pm

Vitami wrote:This policy as the potential risk of making the WA become rulers of the globe. I also worry my nation being a target by 'peacekeeping' nations as in the imperial republic every man and woman is in the military and our children are taught from birth to serve when they come of age. Both I and the ministry have that this resolution cannot pass so to insure our people's identity is not crushed by outsiders who detest the art of war

"Sir, did you even read the resolution at all? The WA Peacekeepers cannot act without the consent of all WA nations involved. If your nation does not want anything to do with them, you can simply opt out of their services."
Da-Teria wrote:I'm sorry, but my knee jerk reaction when I hear "peacekeeping" is that it's a mask for totalitarianism.
Obviously a take over wouldn't happen over night, but this is taking one of the first steps to a NWO.
For now I'll be against the decision, but I'll make sure to read through the whole article.

"So you didn't even bother reading the resolution before deciding how to vote? That's a rather ridiculous way to make policy."
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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:31 pm

Excidium Planetis wrote:Well, IA stomped this. Things are not looking good.

OOC: For the record, I didn't use the Delegate Weapon, merely voted against on PPU (I also agree with Auralia that it contradicts GAR #2, and also that the category seems counter-intuitive) in the hopes of it failing rather than the council having to Discard (or Delay?) it. But if for some weird reason this was deemed legal for another vote later on, I'd vote based on RP reasons.
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Da-Teria
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Postby Da-Teria » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:35 pm

Wallenburg wrote:"Sir, did you even read the resolution at all? The WA Peacekeepers cannot act without the consent of all WA nations involved. If your nation does not want anything to do with them, you can simply opt out of their services."


If I may give my two cents on this statement, although it is between you and Vitami, I feel this is exactly the problem.
There is the huge risk of countries that are not members of the WA being invaded by "peacekeepers" because the member nations have all voted for it.
The WA could easily be taken over and controlled by nations with a common agenda, ruling others under the guise of "peacekeeping".

Wallenburg wrote:"So you didn't even bother reading the resolution before deciding how to vote? That's a rather ridiculous way to make policy."


I have now. My vote still stands. All of these restrictions and duties could easily be warped and misconstrued for the purpose of an agenda.
Ie, sending in "peacekeepers" to put down "violent protesters" because they conflict with the WA's interests.

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Excidium Planetis
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Postby Excidium Planetis » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:51 pm

Da-Teria wrote:If I may give my two cents on this statement, although it is between you and Vitami, I feel this is exactly the problem.
There is the huge risk of countries that are not members of the WA being invaded by "peacekeepers" because the member nations have all voted for it.
The WA could easily be taken over and controlled by nations with a common agenda, ruling others under the guise of "peacekeeping".


Timmons frantically looks over the list of prerecorded Blackbourne messages. None of them apply, it seems. Everything falls on this lowly Sergeant to speak up.

"Uh... Well, you see..." Timmons falters.

He glances at the vote. Things do not look good at all. He feels his resolve strenghten. He grabs the nearest paper copy of WA Peacekeeping Charter, whips out his combat knife, and slices the copy to bits. He folds one piece up into a paper starfighter, and with practiced aim, throws it right into the forehead of the Da-Terian ambassador.

The piece in question reads:
Clarifies that the WA Peacekeepers are not a military force, nor are they ever to be used as such,


"THERE WILL BE NO INVASIONS." Timmons quickly yells out, before snaking his knife back into its sheathe.
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:53 pm

Da-Teria wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:"Sir, did you even read the resolution at all? The WA Peacekeepers cannot act without the consent of all WA nations involved. If your nation does not want anything to do with them, you can simply opt out of their services."


If I may give my two cents on this statement, although it is between you and Vitami, I feel this is exactly the problem.
There is the huge risk of countries that are not members of the WA being invaded by "peacekeepers" because the member nations have all voted for it.
The WA could easily be taken over and controlled by nations with a common agenda, ruling others under the guise of "peacekeeping".
Wallenburg wrote:"So you didn't even bother reading the resolution before deciding how to vote? That's a rather ridiculous way to make policy."

I have now. My vote still stands. All of these restrictions and duties could easily be warped and misconstrued for the purpose of an agenda.
Ie, sending in "peacekeepers" to put down "violent protesters" because they conflict with the WA's interests.

"If you think these Peacekeepers can invade nations, then you clearly have not read the resolution."
While she had no regrets about throwing the lever to douse her husband's mistress in molten gold, Blanche did feel a pang of conscience for the innocent bystanders whose proximity had caused them to suffer gilt by association.

King of Snark, Real Piece of Work, Metabolizer of Oxygen, Old Man from The East Pacific, by the Malevolence of Her Infinite Terribleness Catherine Gratwick the Sole and True Claimant to the Bears Armed Vacancy, Protector of the Realm

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