[DEFEATED] Condemn The Land of Kings and Emperors

[Cormac Stark]

Do we know who hides behind the puppet Silver Shroud?

Obviously someone with a rather large hard on for the LKE. My top three guesses? Cormac, Unibot, Tim.

Not me. I had a proposal drafted nearly a year ago and shelved it after Condemn The New Inquisition was defeated.

[Silver Shroud]

Do we know who hides behind the puppet Silver Shroud?

Obviously someone with a rather large hard on for the LKE. My top three guesses? Cormac, Unibot, Tim.

Is such vulgarity necessarily? This radio show is before the watershed, mind you!

I can wholeheartedly deny all of the above accusation, for what little such denial means. After all, what hooded hooligan admits it when one calls their true nature? Regardless, it is irrelevant next to the content of the proposal.

That said, I can tell you for a fact that I am the owner of "very well acquainted" with the owner of The Mistress of Mystery, which shall serve to travel while this nation retains endorsements (and give me some entertainment by forcing me to speak in her alliterative style).

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Obviously someone with a rather large hard on for the LKE. My top three guesses? Cormac, Unibot, Tim.

Not me. I had a proposal drafted nearly a year ago and shelved it after Condemn The New Inquisition was defeated.

Can confirm that Cormy's WA is quite busy with....things.

-Lt. EWSouls, F.M. of TBH

EDIT: Tim Stark and Unibot III are both WA as well.

[Onderkelkia]

Exact details were not entered into mainly due to the fact that I'd actually like people to read this proposal, and, as I'm sure you understand by now considering your average post length, the majority of players get a bit turned off by walls of text. I assure you, I read quite a large number of forum posts and records, and collected an elaborate record of details. More details shall come in a bit.

It is more than possible to be brief and specific at the same time. For example, you could try a single sentence saying that X region re-founded Y region on a particular date and that the natives were accordingly displaced. Here, there are no dates and the LKE's role in each operation is left unspecified.

You list a bunch of regions without illustrating how even one supports the argument that LKE has caused "long-term damage and depopulation of regions".

If you provided dates and clear examples, it would be possible to examine your claims by looking at the exact LKE contribution in those operations. Instead, you adopt the tactic of dumping a large number of names, which prevents proper scrutiny about the LKE's role in reinforcing on each occasion.

See, this here addresses one of the major premises of my proposal - that over a decade of assisting in operations long deemed of condemn-able quality is as bad as leading them yourself.

1. You provide no examples earlier than August 2011, so on what basis do you talk about the LKE assisting in such operations for "over a decade"?

2. It would be breaking new ground for the Security Council to condemn a region essentially just on the basis of reinforcing others' missions. There is a major distinction between responding to a friend's request for assistance, in some cases with conditions (about how natives are treated), and directly organising large-scale operations. If this is in fact the new standard for condemnations, then there a great many more regions than the LKE who meet it.

3. There is a wide disparity in the level of damage inflicted in the various operations listed in the text of the resolution.

4. Nearly every single operation where the LKE assisted between 2011 and March 2015 also had a TNI presence - either assisting or leading some of the operations in the period between 2011-13. Their 2011-15 operational history is essentially the same, except that in the 2011-13 period, TNI led more occupations, had a significantly larger army and went on even more missions (as anyone there at the time will tell you). The World Assembly Security Council has rightly rejected condemning TNI on three separate occasions. So it is far from established that these operations are of a condemnable standard.

In many of the same operations that have lead to the condemnations I've mentioned, The LKE contributed a large chunk, and sometimes even a majority, of the piling forces present. By common Gameplay regard, The LKE is one of The Raiders' greatest tools for carrying out their deeds. Without your pilers, many of the worst and longest term operations that natives have felt would have fallen to defender liberations.

This is wholly inaccurate. There has not been one large-scale mission where LKE units have constituted the majority of the piling forces present.

From when I ascended the throne in December 2010 to early 2013, the LKE Imperial Army averaged about 5-6 units (sometimes less or slightly more) in its typical deployment. TNIAF used to get about 20 units, sometimes reaching a higher level than that (with its peak being 31). At the time, I actually commanded TNIAF and delegated leadership of the LKE. Unknown and Europeia had at least as many units as the LKE; in fact both could reach higher levels.

In the period of the third incarnation of the United Imperial Armed Forces (i.e. August 2013 to March 2015), the number of LKE units increased slightly (while the number of TNI units fell drastically) but this was immaterial because the number of Albion units was much greater. As was as highly publicised when Albion left the UIAF in March 2015, the majority of the UIAF-flagged units came from Albion, not the LKE. They went on all the same operations. Apart from Albion's units within UIAF, during this period, the militaries of Europeia and especially The North Pacific yielded larger piling forces than LKE. In addition, well before the end of UIAF, The Black Riders' expanded piling capability meant that they could hold targets without UIAF reinforcements.

There have been periods where the LKE generated the highest amounts within the imperialist world - in 2006-7 and parts of 2009-10, as well as a couple of months in early 2013 before the third incarnation of the UIAF was formed. However, the LKE worked very little with raiders during those periods, which is presumably why all your examples are post-2011. Even in those periods, unlike TNI, the LKE's military gameplay has never been based around raw numbers.

Since the UIAF disbanded, the number of LKE units has admittedly increased (peaking at 20 in The Union back in April, and 17 reinforcing the Osiris Delegacy in its last switchover - although it has been subject to significant seasonal variations) - but at this stage, the LKE hardly provides the largest proportion of pilers, never mind a majority. In the current DEN occupation of Yorkshire, the second of DEN's two occupations (alongside St Abbaddon), the LKE only has a fifth of 38 units in the region. More generally, DEN has the largest reinforcements potential of any region, as is illustrated to anyone who cares to look at St Abbaddon, although Europeia and The Black Hawks also generate significant amounts, as indeed does Albion when it deploys.

So it is ridiculous to pretend (as you do) that the LKE's military is primarily responsible for "the worst and longest term operations" of raider occupations.

I challenge you to name a single occasion where the LKE has provided "a majority, of the piling forces present" in a large-scale raider mission.

You consistently report in your own embassy thread your destructive military prowess. Excuse me for lacking the space to report every such instance within my proposal.

We report that we make a meaningful contribution. However, never have we claimed responsibility for enabling DEN and The Black Hawks, or historically The Black Riders, to carry out all the operations that they do. In the case of Lone Wolves United, we have only worked with them very occasionally.

It's not that you have not provided enough examples - it's that none of the examples show the LKE's role matching what you suggest it is.

Your record in assisting with destruction goes back as far as, and likely further than, the very first region I list- Concosia. Though, indeed,it was a TNI lead-

We are pleased to report that in a daring, unconventional and tense military operation, The New Inquisition Armed Forces have successfully refounded Concosia. Back in 2007, this region had a few hundred nations and currently has a forum with over 32,000 posts, so capturing it permanently represents a significant victory for TNI

yet-

Our allies, especially The Imperial Legion (TIL), TBH, The Land of Kings and Emperors (The LKE) and Europeia, were also vital to this effort and I would like to recognise this.

...One of many sources agreeing that The LKE has been vital to such efforts time and time again.

The statement confirms that the allies of TNI - The Imperial Legion, The Black Hawks, LKE and Europeia - were vital to the mission in Concosia.

Speaking as the person who wrote the TNI statement on Concosia that you quote from, I can tell you that was just a standard thank you-credit that we gave to partners who assist our operations. It is very different from showing that the LKE as a region provided a high proportion of the units.

I sometimes gave credit on behalf of TNIAF in the order of the numbers each region sent - if I did so here, that would imply The Imperial Legion and The Black Hawks both provided greater reinforcements than LKE did here. Regardless, I can tell you that TNI will have provided by far the largest amount.

Your analysis of my criticism of the withdrawal and recruitment incidents are mostly fair. I, like many authors before me, am guilty of glittering events a bit to sound good in a proposal, I shall admit that. In the end, however, they're still both facts - you DID withdraw from peace talks, and illegal recruiting WAS committed in your name...

Merely because Albion, TNI and the LKE withdrew from the September 2014 summit does not mean that LKE should be condemned. There is no reason why a region withdrawing from negotiations is inherently condemnable. It depends on the reasons for doing so. The LKE, TNI and Albion acted reasonably here.

The inclusion of this line indicates the wider lack of contextual understanding that beleaguers this resolution.

and illegal recruiting WAS committed in your name... and the region as a whole was punished for it. If the mods see it as fair to apply that to the entire region, I don't think it's that much of a stretch for a lowly author to do so as well.

Likewise, the fact that telegrams purported to be on behalf of the LKE does not mean that the LKE was responsible for them. This has been recognised by other Security Council authors - for instance, when drafting a a resolution in relation to either Halcones or The Black Riders (I forget which), I recall Topid (a defender sympathiser who is hardly a friend to the LKE) proactively removing a line referring to the LKE in relation to the recruitment scandal.

[Silver Shroud]

A quick search of any of those names should, in most cases, turn up the relevant reports and information far better than I ever could convey within the confines of a proposal, and the IC voice required.

I make no secret that this is breaking new ground. As I said -

Moving on - It is my firm believe that years of providing the large number of pilers to support raids is akin to being a sort of NationStates arms dealer, providing the villainous organizations of the site with the "armaments" necessary to project their dastardly power. For years upon years of providing this reproachable service, without which many of these organizations' largest and most destructive operations may never have succeeded, I find The LKE to be just as guilty, and just as worthy of condemnation, as those wielding the controls.

New grounds or not, that is my belief, and the fate of this proposal shall tell if it is supported or not.

If my friend asks me to help kill a man and hide his body, I may be subject to a lesser charge, but I am still guilty (or would be, if I was not a vigilante protagonist who is above the law and murders criminals at will). It it passes, it may lead to others, yes, but there must still be a first.

You use the failure of TNI condemnations to pass as an example why this should not, I use the successful condemnations of regions whom you support with more endorsements than they themselves provide as an example why this should pass - it seems we are at a stalemate in that regard.

Of course, you can be confident that that is an impossible task, due to the simple fact that piler numbers per region have rarely been posted to the forums, and are even more lost to the obscurity of the past elsewhere. There is, simply put, no possible way for that fact to be proven conclusively either way. That said, while I may not be able to prove that you've ever constituted a majority (without perhaps days of internet archive and cached pages searching), I can conclusively prove the "large chunk" line - see Here.

17 nations check in from LKE, plus an uncounted number of flags flown without checking in.

BI was represented three times (checked in).

KGB sent 6 (checked in)

and Albion, for reference, had 14 check in

This record that I was able to find for one such operation clearly states that the LKE was confirmed as the single largest source of support for that operation.

I am claiming you enable such regions to securely commit their atrocities.

I am not other Security Council authors.

-The Silver Shroud

[Tim Stark]

Do we know who hides behind the puppet Silver Shroud?

Obviously someone with a rather large hard on for the LKE. My top three guesses? Cormac, Unibot, Tim.

Just to double confirm, this is me. I'm WA'd. I'm pretty sure if I was condemning LKE I'd just submit from my main nation (well, from this one because Tim-Opolis is WA banned, but you get it).

[The Silver Sentinel]

Obviously someone with a rather large hard on for the LKE. My top three guesses? Cormac, Unibot, Tim.

Just to double confirm, this is me. I'm WA'd. I'm pretty sure if I was condemning LKE I'd just submit from my main nation (well, from this one because Tim-Opolis is WA banned, but you get it).

You mean it is NOT you?

Well it seems we have a bonafide mystery on our hands then.

[Onderkelkia]

A quick search of any of those names should, in most cases, turn up the relevant reports and information far better than I ever could convey within the confines of a proposal, and the IC voice required.

The resolution should provide sufficient information for nations and delegates to make a judgement on the proposal.

As it is, the content lacks specificity about the nature and size of the LKE's role in particular operations, which is the crux of your argument.

New grounds or not, that is my belief, and the fate of this proposal shall tell if it is supported or not.

If my friend asks me to help kill a man and hide his body, I may be subject to a lesser charge, but I am still guilty (or would be, if I was not a vigilante protagonist who is above the law and murders criminals at will). It it passes, it may lead to others, yes, but there must still be a first.

If we strip out the rhetoric about region destruction, your view sets the bar for a condemnation at repeatedly providing reinforcements to invasions. This is a remarkably low standard. All gameplay regions who value the ability to cooperate militarily have good reason to take a different perspective on the issue.

You use the failure of TNI condemnations to pass as an example why this should not, I use the successful condemnations of regions whom you support with more endorsements than they themselves provide as an example why this should pass - it seems we are at a stalemate in that regard.

Compared to DEN, The Black Riders or The Black Hawks, the case of the LKE has far more in common with thatof TNI - in fact, to any informed observer making an objective examination of their respective military activities, the case of TNI is closer to those three examples than the LKE happens to be.

Of course, you can be confident that that is an impossible task, due to the simple fact that piler numbers per region have rarely been posted to the forums, and are even more lost to the obscurity of the past elsewhere. There is, simply put, no possible way for that fact to be proven conclusively either way.

You are saying that something cannot be proven conclusively and then going on to assume that the LKE contributed a large chunk in each of these cases.

I have provided an accurate account above. I invite anyone who was active militarily in 2011-13 to refute my claim that TNI's military was vastly larger than that of the LKE in that period, and that other powers like Europeia and Unknown contributed units at least equal to, if not greater, than the LKE's total.

Similarly, if you want verification about the fact that Albion provided a majority of UIAF units, you need only read their withdrawal statement.

The idea that I would be lying about this is frankly quite bizarre. The reason I am being so open about all this is because this is already well-known.

That said, while I may not be able to prove that you've ever constituted a majority (without perhaps days of internet archive and cached pages searching), I can conclusively prove the "large chunk" line - see Here.

17 nations check in from LKE, plus an uncounted number of flags flown without checking in.

BI was represented three times (checked in).

KGB sent 6 (checked in)

and Albion, for reference, had 14 check in

This record that I was able to find for one such operation clearly states that the LKE was confirmed as the single largest source of support for that operation.

What your post establishes is that in one instance (in an operation which, by the way, was far from a typical military occupation, seeing as it wasn't the previous owners' region in the first place), the LKE provided more reinforcements than the other Congress of Sovereigns members and Albion.

Insofar as KGB and BI are concerned, I never claimed (in my earlier post) that they could compare to the LKE in this regard. As regards Albion, if you look at the follow-up post by Cassius Cerebella in that thread, you can see their take on the subject, and the figure is broadly similar to that of the LKE anyway.

How does that particular case translate to assuming that the LKE was a major contributor in most or all of the operations listed in the resolution?

Furthermore, the figures provided in that post by Souls entirely corroborate the account that I gave above. The LKE was deployed in The Black Riders mission from 30th June 2015 to 14th September 2015. Thus, this occurred after the dissolution of the UIAF. On this period, I said the following:

Since the UIAF disbanded, the number of LKE units has admittedly increased (peaking at 20 in The Union back in April, and 17 reinforcing the Osiris Delegacy in its last switchover - although it has been subject to significant seasonal variations) - but at this stage, the LKE hardly provides the largest proportion of pilers, never mind a majority. In the current DEN occupation of Yorkshire, the second of DEN's two occupations (alongside St Abbaddon), the LKE only has a fifth of 38 units in the region. More generally, DEN has the largest reinforcements potential of any region, as is illustrated to anyone who cares to look at St Abbaddon, although Europeia and The Black Hawks also generate significant amounts, as indeed does Albion when it deploys.

The number of 17 in Souls's post therefore tallies with what I said above on the matter. Thus, you can see that the account I gave was accurate.

The overwhelming majority of the operations you cite in the resolution preceded the dissolution of the UIAF, when the LKE's force was weaker.

You have no basis whatsoever for making claims that the LKE provided a "large chunk" in relation to nearly all the regions you mention.

I am not other Security Council authors.

You cited the moderators in discussing what "a lowly author [is] to do"; it's thus presumably legitimate for me to point how other authors have behaved in articulating how a "lowly author" might act in these situations. The fact is, you are making a choice and you've basically admitted that my critique of that decision is fair. I believe that this point, which stems from your lack of appreciation for the context, is also reflected in the wider state of the proposal.

[Tim Stark]

Just to double confirm, this is me. I'm WA'd. I'm pretty sure if I was condemning LKE I'd just submit from my main nation (well, from this one because Tim-Opolis is WA banned, but you get it).

You mean it is NOT you?

Well it seems we have a bonafide mystery on our hands then.

My bad, I failed at typing there. When I said "this is me", I was confirming that Tim Stark is me

Yeah, I'm not The Silver Shroud, to my great envy because that'd be an amazing switcher to have.

[Silver Shroud]

The resolution states the misdeeds, if not the exact timestamps that the invasions occurred on. There is a line to be danced - the majority of those reading and voting on these proposals will not read or consider a list of detailed jargon so much as they will heartfelt yet truthful statements. Yet, the votes that matter most require a decently collected proposal. I have striven to dance this line, providing a researched yet emotionally worded proposal, with this thread serving as a ground for more detailed discussions like we are holding. The fact is, just as many refuse to do more than skim large posts such as these, many would refuse to read your ideal of a proposal, which largely defeats the point.

Without the forces of pilers wantonly contributed by regions such as The LKE, the operation of raiders would be severely hindered, and much more accessible to liberation. My view is that repeatedly enabling condemnable actions is condemnable itself. I do not think that is much of a stretch.

TNI is not in a condemnable state at the moment - TNI is dormant, and has been little heard of on the modern battlefields of NS. The LKE is still highly operational and supporting modern raider operations. In a day and age where we can condemn a raider organization that has been revived for less than a year (with horrible spelling and grammar to boot) for but a handful of raids, the bar is already set fairly low, perhaps lower than when those attempts to condemn TNI were made. Looking at that resolution so recently passed, how can you say this is not both more justified and better written than #187, which fails to even mentioned the historic incarnations?

Again, we return to the impasse that there exists no data on other, more "typical" operations to corroborate either of our claims. It may be an outright misdirection of the burden of proof, but I'd like to see you provide conclusive evidence that the LKE did not constitute a "large chunk" of the operations I have listed. Until then, it's a war of claims, which has no quantifiable winner. I cannot source and prove numerically that it did, and I doubt you can source and prove that it did not, for the simple reason that that data has not been kept in an organized manner, if at all.

[Aelbarrow]

I support Onder's statements and will vote against this if it gets to the floor.

[King HEM]

Oh sweet jesus, it seems to be that time of the year again...

Part of me just wants to quote Onder's initial rebuttal with a massive "thumbs up" emoji, and call it a day, but there are a few things on a broader scale I think are worth discussing. I will not for a moment pretend to be an expert on current World Assembly culture, but is everyone aware of the dodgy precedents we are setting with this condemnation. Here are a few things we are saying are "condemnable" based on this resolution:

(1) A Region's embassies. This resolution says that the embassies YOUR region choses to open can subsequently reflect upon your region. This could substantially choke embassy-sharing culture in many regions that like to open as many embassies as possible. We are criminalizing diplomacy, and that is v. concerning.

(2) A Region tags. Onder addressed this pretty well, but we are also saying that your region's tags, which are meant to be an apolitical label -- a street sign, so to say -- are not indicative of the region. This opens up TONS of doors with roleplay regions that could have tags like, "crime" or "criminals" or whatever.

(3) Regions can now be held responsible for the actions of a single citizen. By condemning the LKE for the actions of Bob, we are saying that any time someone with citizenship in a region commits a crime, the entire region is guilty. I guess this is great news, because I have TONS of backdated condemnations to file against the The Founderless Regions Alliance based on the conduct of Falconias in Europeia, and TONS to file against the United Defenders League based on the violations of Unibot! Oh wait, no, that's silly.

When you strip away the rhetoric and, the frankly downright deceptive wordplay, you are left with the center section that lists out the raids the LKE has been on. That's what this resolution is about. It's about the Invader / Defender war ("game" if you prefer), peppered with just enough saucy rhetoric to appeal to non-gameplayers. It's brilliant. It is also lousy, and it is getting weary.

This resolution is not a condemnation of the Land of Kings and Emperors, but of raiding.

I want us to consider how inappropriate this resolution is. It is a wolf in sheep's clothing, the first step in what I can only imagine is the start of a campaign to condemn every single region that has ever invaded.

It claims to be singling the LKE out for these "heinous crimes," but the only "crime" the LKE has committed is...existing as a region and invading other regions. By passing this resolution we are saying that the World Assembly sees defenders as holding a monopoly on military power and the power of self determination, and all other choices are condemnable. Defenderism should not, and must not, hold a chokehold on morality. Nationstates is more complicated than that, and the World Assembly deserves resolutions with far more depth than that.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

ADMONISHING The LKE for its involvement in a massive case of international mail fraud,

Only conspiracy theorists believe the LKE was aware of the fraud, and you must know this, or you wouldn't be hiding behind a puppet nation.

[Consular]

When you strip away the rhetoric and, the frankly downright deceptive wordplay, you are left with the center section that lists out the raids the LKE has been on. That's what this resolution is about. It's about the Invader / Defender war ("game" if you prefer), peppered with just enough saucy rhetoric to appeal to non-gameplayers. It's brilliant. It is also lousy, and it is getting weary.

This resolution is not a condemnation of the Land of Kings and Emperors, but of raiding.

I want us to consider how inappropriate this resolution is. It is a wolf in sheep's clothing, the first step in what I can only imagine is the start of a campaign to condemn every single region that has ever invaded.

It claims to be singling the LKE out for these "heinous crimes," but the only "crime" the LKE has committed is...existing as a region and invading other regions.

Er... this would not be the first time the Security Council had condemned a region for invading. That precedent already exists, as I'm sure you're quite aware. Invading other regions without cause very much is a condemnable action.

[Silver Shroud]

Supporting points, at best.

Since when has the condemnation feature been used for anything but the rabid chasing of raiders (and occasionally Nazis) anytime recently? DEN, aka the TBR Remnants, barely have a handful of raids under their belt and have already been whacked with a badge. You could likewise say that those targeted at, say, Vandoosa, would not have existed had he, say, neglected Iwaku for roleplays rather than Gameplay. The people have been proposing and voting on condemnations that are basically of raiding itself, and I find The LKE long guilty of perpetuating that facet of NationStates.

You imagine wrong. Regardless of the outcome of this proposal, I intend to fade back into my signature smoke. If it inspires others to write new proposals on new grounds, that would be quite amazing to see, actually, because it would mean some new activity around here, but I do not intend to perpetuate it myself.

What more has DEN, or TBH, or LWU, or TBR done at the times of their condemnations? It's not a new idea to view the SC as a defender tool, not when the majority of GCR votes are somewhere between defender-leaning and defender controlled, and the Liberation function is one of the most powerful tools to defenders when update liberations have failed (and one without a Raider-usable counterpart). Defenders have held a claim to morality for no small time as well.

What the World Assembly deserves is resolutions with more reasoning and better grammar than #187 - that's why I wrote this.

A puppet nation merely adds to the fun, and has proven a diverting gimmick in the form of a role to play both in posts and telegrams. This is a game, after all.

-THE SILVER SHROUD

[King HEM]

When you strip away the rhetoric and, the frankly downright deceptive wordplay, you are left with the center section that lists out the raids the LKE has been on. That's what this resolution is about. It's about the Invader / Defender war ("game" if you prefer), peppered with just enough saucy rhetoric to appeal to non-gameplayers. It's brilliant. It is also lousy, and it is getting weary.

This resolution is not a condemnation of the Land of Kings and Emperors, but of raiding.

I want us to consider how inappropriate this resolution is. It is a wolf in sheep's clothing, the first step in what I can only imagine is the start of a campaign to condemn every single region that has ever invaded.

It claims to be singling the LKE out for these "heinous crimes," but the only "crime" the LKE has committed is...existing as a region and invading other regions.

Er... this would not be the first time the Security Council had condemned a region for invading. That precedent already exists, as I'm sure you're quite aware. Invading other regions without cause very much is a condemnable action.

I'm aware of that, sadly.

My point is that this resolution is pretending to be something else. About "bigger" crimes, that have all been dismissed and debunked as rhetoric. That is how this author hopes to pass this resolution.

And furthermore, how one choses to play the game should *not* be grounds for a condemnation. It is completely wrong. Is the World Assembly now in the business of dictating how people answer issues or change their flag as well? I am told we all have a right to play this game the way we'd like, and I think we seriously need to rethink any precedent that says it is okay to "condemn" someone for playing it their way.

What more has DEN, or TBH, or LWU, or TBR done at the times of their condemnations? It's not a new idea to view the SC as a defender tool, not when the majority of GCR votes are somewhere between defender-leaning and defender controlled, and the Liberation function is one of the most powerful tools to defenders when update liberations have failed (and one without a Raider-usable counterpart). Defenders have held a claim to morality for no small time as well.

Maybe it is not a new idea, but it is a poor idea. It attempts to force one method of gameplay upon all gameplayers, robbing them of enjoyment and the freedom to play the game how they'd like. And it should absolutely, positively, stop here.

[Silver Shroud]

Nay, it's for raiding, at heart. The rhetoric is an eye-catcher. I "hope" to walk the line between catchy phrases for the masses an enough meat to satisfy the important names, though the balance may have ended up too far in favor of the former.

The SC has long existed largely as a tool for GP. For it to be otherwise would require it's functions to have some sort of actual effect beyond a little badge - and the one that does, a Liberation, is entirely a GP-related effect. Suggestions to change this have long been shot down, no?

Long story short, more than a few of the arguments I've faced here could be copied and pasted to just about any recently passed condemnation - the only reason they're coming up so strong this time is due to that fact I've targeted a politically powerful region that, unlike the average raider, actually doesn't want to be condemned.

[Consular]

It attempts to force one method of gameplay upon all gameplayers, robbing them of enjoyment and the freedom to play the game how they'd like. And it should absolutely, positively, stop here.

As opposed to invasions, which do no such thing?

Invading is the manipulation of game mechanics to force the seizure of a region by external forces, often a region which has no desire to participate this now legitimised "r/d" "game", a region which neither understands nor cares about the rather niche world of that game, a region which would very much prefer to be left alone to its own affairs, a region which nonetheless has no choice at all in the matter. Invasion attempts to force one method of gameplay upon all players, robbing them of enjoyment and the freedom to play the game how they'd like. And it should absolutely, positively, stop here.

[Ramaeus]

And furthermore, how one choses to play the game should *not* be grounds for a condemnation. It is completely wrong.

By that argument, absolutely nothing is "grounds for a condemnation". It's a silly argument to make.

Edited for clarity.

[The Silver Sentinel]

There is a line to be danced - the majority of those reading and voting on these proposals will not read or consider a list of detailed jargon so much as they will heartfelt yet truthful statements.

The majority will read how the major delegates (who see this for the load of bullshit that it is) and vote the same way. This is not DEN you, whom EVERYBODY hates that you are trying to condemn. This is the LKE whom mostly NOBODY had heard of. Save yourself the grief.

TNI is not in a condemnable state at the moment - TNI is dormant, and has been little heard of on the modern battlefields of NS.

The TNI isn't a state, it is an organization. Please try harder.

[Silver Shroud]

It attempts to force one method of gameplay upon all gameplayers, robbing them of enjoyment and the freedom to play the game how they'd like. And it should absolutely, positively, stop here.

As opposed to invasions, which do no such thing?

Invading is the manipulation of game mechanics to force the seizure of a region by external forces, often a region which has no desire to participate this now legitimised "r/d" "game", a region which neither understands nor cares about the rather niche world of that game, a region which would very much prefer to be left alone to its own affairs, a region which nonetheless has no choice at all in the matter. Invasion attempts to force one method of gameplay upon all players, robbing them of enjoyment and the freedom to play the game how they'd like. And it should absolutely, positively, stop here.

Yet it will not, and as such we condemn it, and since all the current raiders seem to have a nice flaming badge on their regions, their suppliers are next. Seeing as The LKE actually objects to this measure, where Raider regions seem to largely welcome it as a badge of honor, perhaps in this case such a resolution's proposal should actually serve a measure more of it's intended purpose, and deter such behavior?

[Consular]

TNI is not in a condemnable state at the moment - TNI is dormant, and has been little heard of on the modern battlefields of NS.

The TNI isn't a state, it is an organization. Please try harder.

What?

[Ramaeus]

TNI is not in a condemnable state at the moment - TNI is dormant, and has been little heard of on the modern battlefields of NS.

The TNI isn't a state, it is an organization. Please try harder.

You misread that sentence. Please try harder.

[Silver Shroud]

There is a line to be danced - the majority of those reading and voting on these proposals will not read or consider a list of detailed jargon so much as they will heartfelt yet truthful statements.

The majority will read how the major delegates (who see this for the load of bullshit that it is) and vote the same way. This is not DEN you, whom EVERYBODY hates that you are trying to condemn. This is the LKE whom mostly NOBODY had heard of. Save yourself the grief.

TNI is not in a condemnable state at the moment - TNI is dormant, and has been little heard of on the modern battlefields of NS.

The TNI isn't a state, it is an organization. Please try harder.

And yet many have heard of at least one of regions who've they've assisted in raiding, which is why I've named so many - a bit of a "call to home" for many, I'd hope.

You seem to have misread me. It's not in a condemnable state. It's inactive. It has not assisted majorly with any operations in terms of endorsements in recent history. It's only major impact on GP in recent months has been the reveal of it's long-term infiltration. Of course it's an organization - one that is currently in a faded state.

[Onderkelkia]

The resolution states the misdeeds, if not the exact timestamps that the invasions occurred on. There is a line to be danced - the majority of those reading and voting on these proposals will not read or consider a list of detailed jargon so much as they will heartfelt yet truthful statements. Yet, the votes that matter most require a decently collected proposal. I have striven to dance this line, providing a researched yet emotionally worded proposal, with this thread serving as a ground for more detailed discussions like we are holding. The fact is, just as many refuse to do more than skim large posts such as these, many would refuse to read your ideal of a proposal, which largely defeats the point.

Once again, you are confusing specificity with verbosity. It is entirely possible to be brief and precise about about particular operations. At the moment, you use 113 words in the clause listing the regions and include over 30 regions. Talking about 6 or 7 regions in more detail would have been achievable.

The problem here is that the way you have structured it rests on dumping the names of a large number of cases and then assuming that the LKE played a particular role in relation to them. The reason you cannot talk specifically is because you ultimately have no idea what the LKE's actual role was.

You are relying on the length of the list and emotive language, rather than showing what occurred.

The rest of the resolution is just filled with questionable statements, which you presumably have just added in as fillers - you've failed to even the defend the points regarding TRR and Osiris, while indicating the criticisms of the points on the recruitment scandal and the summit withdrawal are fair.

Without the forces of pilers wantonly contributed by regions such as The LKE,

You say regions "such as the LKE" - but what do you show is special about the operations of the LKE specifically which means it should be condemned?

My view is that repeatedly enabling condemnable actions is condemnable itself. I do not think that is much of a stretch.

1. Establishing that reinforcing raids on multiple occasions constitutes grounds for condemnation would be a significant stretch as it goes beyond the scope of existing resolutions, as you have acknowledged, and would drastically broaden the number of regions vulnerable to condemnation. A lot of regions engage in routine military cooperation - for example, one of the operations you list is the occupation of Japan. The LKE was just one of 12 regions involved in that mission (the others being DEN, TBH, LWU, The South Pacific, KGB, British Isles, Albion, Europeia, The Communist Bloc, Funen and a guild of Equinox). If you go through these regions' histories, you'll find other examples of them reinforcing occupations as well. If you look at other occupations since 2011, when the first mission you cite occurred, you'll find even more regions in this category. We're probably talking about 30 or more regions here.

2. Whether the operations carried out by the LKE are condemnable is a matter of debate, considering its shared operational history with TNI between August 2011 and March 2015 (except TNI led more in 2011-13), and the fact that the Security Council has declined to condemn TNI on three separate occasions.

3. The LKE has contributed meaningfully to some operations (probably not all of those listed; in some of the regions listed, there may have been only 2-3 LKE units present under the UIAF flag or even none, if we were deployed elsewhere at the time). However, that's different from 'repeatedly enabling' them to take place. Demonstrably, many large raider occupations, such as St Abbaddon at the moment, take place without any involvement from LKE.

TNI is not in a condemnable state at the moment - TNI is dormant, and has been little heard of on the modern battlefields of NS. The LKE is still highly operational and supporting modern raider operations.

Here, the truth comes out: This resolution is not intended to target the LKE for its actual "ancient record", which the resolution labours on (while ignoring over half a decade of the LKE's history), but because the LKE has the temerity to be militarily active at the moment. Rather than being driven by the merits, the author has strategically chosen the LKE because he wants to cause maximum damage for the imperialist sphere by condemning an active region.

The resolution goes back to August 2011. Within that time period, TNI has been the most prolific imperialist region in terms of its military activity. Indeed, it has continuously been a premier imperialist region between October 2006 and the demise of the UIAF in March of the current year. However, I am not suggesting that you should condemn TNI - far from it; that has already been rejected three times. The point is that, in that context, considering the overlap between their operations (except that TNI has led considerably more), it would be arbitrary and inconsistent for the Security Council to condemn the LKE.

the bar is already set fairly low, perhaps lower than when those attempts to condemn TNI were mad.

The last attempt to condemn TNI was February 2015 - that is hardly that long ago.

Again, we return to the impasse that there exists no data on other, more "typical" operations to corroborate either of our claims. It may be an outright misdirection of the burden of proof, but I'd like to see you provide conclusive evidence that the LKE did not constitute a "large chunk" of the operations I have listed. Until then, it's a war of claims, which has no quantifiable winner. I cannot source and prove numerically that it did, and I doubt you can source and prove that it did not, for the simple reason that that data has not been kept in an organized manner, if at all.

An "outright misdirection of the burden of proof", as you put it, is too charitable to describe your reasoning in this paragraph.

You have no evidence for your claim, which goes to the heart of this resolution. You then put the onus on me to "conclusively" disprove it, while acknowledging that the fact that records weren't maintained means that it is impossible to do this. How does that provide a fair hearing to the LKE?

In fact, if you were so inclined, you could take precisely the same approach with any of the 30 or more regions who have reinforced raids on multiple occasions between 2011 and 2015, and assume that they contributed a "large chunk" of the forces in the missions where they participated, merely because they cannot disprove it. This line of argument provides no basis for singling out LKE being the pivotal force enabling all these raider occupations.

The account that I gave above was accurate - it is evidence in its own right, as it is my recollection and I closely observed the LKE's military performance throughout the period of this resolution. On the other hand, your claim does not come from observing LKE deployments; it is a product of your imagination.