[PASSED] Liberate St Abbaddon

[Sedgistan]

Hello all. I'll cut to the chase:

Liberate St Abbaddon
A resolution to strike down Delegate-imposed barriers to free entry in a region.
Category: Liberation | Nominee: St Abbaddon | Proposed by: Topid

Description: The World Assembly,

Noticing the ancient region of St Abbaddon was occupied weeks ago,

Conceding that St Abbaddon is not yet under a password,

Considering endorsement levels in the region to be far in excess of what occupiers would need to hold the region, and accumulating influence to do damage may be the purpose of these excess forces,

Further considering new regional officers to cause greater dangers to a native community such as this one,

Insisting a delay to act until a password is implemented could mean the opportunity to act in time has passed,

Noting very few historically founderless regions have survived other than the feeder and sinker regions,

Appreciating these few remaining relics for the valuable reminders they contain about the origins of NationStates,

Remembering St Abbaddon was originally inhabited by people who came to NationStates from other domains in the first few months,

Believing the story of St Abbaddon to be useful for understanding the cultures of early NationStates,

Observing St Abbaddon is presently home to many native nations who seek to preserve their region,

Hoping a World Assembly Liberation will hinder the efforts of the occupiers, and apply pressure to end the occupation without permanent consequences,

Knowing the natives of St Abbaddon will rise stronger than ever before if given the opportunity,

Hereby Liberates St Abbaddon.

A few things:

1. I don't know what the invaders have planned for their occupation of St Abbaddon.
2. I do know that the endorsement gap between Hawkswind (our former delegate) and the invader lead is over seventy endorsements, which is excessive. Unity also invaded Middle Earth and has considerably less endorsements in that region even though their region had more endorsements on the delegate prior to the invasion. Why is the St Abbaddon raid getting so much more support? Could they be gaining influence to do damage? We don't know. All I know is it is possible, and because of ROs once they have the influence to put the password on the region with the lead the combination of all their nations in the region could likely clear the region pretty quickly with Border Control powers. So we can't wait to see if that's what they're doing anymore, once they've shown their cards the hand will be over.
3. I intend to rebuild St Abby. I'm going to begin recruiting for my "back up" region of St Abby soon. I dropped the ball and didn't notice Pse CTEd this year. I've been too inactive and I should have run a recruitment campaign months ago. But I graduated University with my graduate degree Saturday so I think I will have more time (no work at home, just work at work from now on). If I get this liberation and the raiders eventually withdraw from the region, and then nothing happens after, that will be a significant failure on my end.
4. Hawkswind, the user who has been in the region since late 2003/early 2002 said he quit the game because of this raid, and has not logged into his nation for about 3 weeks. He'll CTE soon. Since he's not around, I've stepped up as a leader of St Abby even though I haven't been in that role for over 3 years.

Having said all of that: Open to comments.

[Knot II]

I do know that the endorsement gap between Hawkswind (our former delegate) and the invader lead is over seventy endorsements, which is excessive. Unity also invaded Middle Earth and has considerably less endorsements in that region even though their region had more endorsements on the delegate prior to the invasion. Why is the St Abbaddon raid getting so much more support?

98% of all of the current 74 endorsements have come from the DEN since nearly everyone else has withdrawn, while a whole host of militaries are occupying both Middle Earth and Alternate History World. To answer your question on why the occupation stack is relatively high, perhaps it's because our army is just... massive. Welcome to DEN, roll credits.

[Cormac Stark]

I'm sure you'll get the liberation resolution, as usual, but I can assure you that I'm going to do everything I can to make sure it isn't repealed, so you can't just slam a password back on the region that raiders will inevitably discover. The Security Council really doesn't need to be passing, repealing, passing, repealing liberation resolutions for St Abbaddon every few months at Topid's convenience.

This is alarmist, as well, because DEN has given no indication that a liberation resolution will be needed, so I'll be trying to fight this altogether. But I don't expect fighting the liberation resolution to work so, again, expect a big fight when you try to repeal it. If you want the region opened, it's staying opened, and will be tag raided over and over again.

[Topid]

DEN has vowed multiple times on the RMB but they are not leaving the region and Knot himself said the situation was "hopeless" for natives. So yes, they've given plenty of indication of the permanency of the situation. I didn't cite those indications because that is just the usual posturing, but I could.

@Cormac, not that I have any doubt in my ability to beat you in that fight, but if you recall the history of my involvement in St Abbaddon it is that I want the region preserved. Passwords are the death of a region no matter who imposes it, I'd rather St Abby be raided often than one day cease to exist. I argued strongly against the password in St Abby but when Hawkswind said he wanted it anyway I did not oppose, I had/have a lot of respect for Hawkswind. But I will definitely never be one to argue that passwording the region is a good strategy to protect the region. If this passes, and anyone other than Hawk tried to repeal our Lib I would join you in your fight. I will remember you as a definite ally should that event occur. [EDIT: And of course it appears Hawk is not going to be doing anything ever again... so yeah.]

[The Silver Sentinel]

Looks good to me, will support.

I'm sure you'll get the liberation resolution, as usual, but I can assure you that I'm going to do everything I can to make sure it isn't repealed, so you can't just slam a password back on the region that raiders will inevitably discover.

Are you supplying free air conditioners with all the hot air you are blowing? Whilst I am sure most people derive some entertainment value from the circus you routinely perform every time something doesn't go your way, I have come to see it as more of a one trick pony that has shown us all of it's tricks.

[Wordy]

Looks good although I am unsure of this sentence:

Remembering St Abbaddon was originally inhabited by people who came to NationStates from other domains in the first few months,

Is it R4 compliant?

I will support of course.

[Ramaeus]

Looks good although I am unsure of this sentence:

Remembering St Abbaddon was originally inhabited by people who came to NationStates from other domains in the first few months,

Is it R4 compliant?

I will support of course.

It should be R4 compliant.

[Topid]

Yes I assume people could be thought of as IC, coming to our universe from some other older universe. I used domain to be clever.

[St Nevis And Kitts]

Endorsed

[St Nevis And Kitts]

I do know that the endorsement gap between Hawkswind (our former delegate) and the invader lead is over seventy endorsements, which is excessive. Unity also invaded Middle Earth and has considerably less endorsements in that region even though their region had more endorsements on the delegate prior to the invasion. Why is the St Abbaddon raid getting so much more support?

98% of all of the current 74 endorsements have come from the DEN since nearly everyone else has withdrawn, while a whole host of militaries are occupying both Middle Earth and Alternate History World. To answer your question on why the occupation stack is relatively high, perhaps it's because our army is just... massive. Welcome to DEN, roll credits.

This total non-sense general .. den shall end up like the black riders

[Cormac Stark]

@Cormac, not that I have any doubt in my ability to beat you in that fight, but if you recall the history of my involvement in St Abbaddon it is that I want the region preserved. Passwords are the death of a region no matter who imposes it, I'd rather St Abby be raided often than one day cease to exist. I argued strongly against the password in St Abby but when Hawkswind said he wanted it anyway I did not oppose, I had/have a lot of respect for Hawkswind. But I will definitely never be one to argue that passwording the region is a good strategy to protect the region. If this passes, and anyone other than Hawk tried to repeal our Lib I would join you in your fight. I will remember you as a definite ally should that event occur. [EDIT: And of course it appears Hawk is not going to be doing anything ever again... so yeah.]

The downside though is that St Abbaddon will be constantly tag raided without a password, particularly once you fall inactive again, the recruiting I'm sure you plan to do stops, and the next Delegate's endorsements are down. This also isn't a problem limited to tag raiding, as it will leave the door open for longer occupations as well. Given the region's close association with defenders over the years, longer occupations will still happen whether a password can be imposed during the raid or not.

The trade-off you're making -- without any other native support -- is that it will be more difficult to re-found St Abbaddon, but you'll have a raider tag in the WFE more often than you won't, and a raider Delegate whenever raiders feel like it.

[Herby]

This total non-sense general .. den shall end up like the black riders

Only if they cheat.

[Topid]

You keep implying that I'm not a native Cormac. It is untrue, I recruited every member that St Abbaddon ever had other than myself and Hawk. If Hawk were around, he'd be more native than me for sure. But he's not, and if he was I know very well he'd be right on board with what I want to do anyway. I have no problem discussing this with an honest Cormac, I'm not going to discuss it with spin-to-the-point-of-lying Cormac.

[Cormac Stark]

You keep implying that I'm not a native Cormac. It is untrue, I recruited every member that St Abbaddon ever had other than myself and Hawk. If Hawk were around, he'd be more native than me for sure. But he's not, and if he was I know very well he'd be right on board with what I want to do anyway. I have no problem discussing this with an honest Cormac, I'm not going to discuss it with spin-to-the-point-of-lying Cormac.

The trade-off you're making -- without any other native support -- is that it will be more difficult to re-found St Abbaddon, but you'll have a raider tag in the WFE more often than you won't, and a raider Delegate whenever raiders feel like it.

Maybe now you would like to address the substance of my argument -- that you'll be making St Abbaddon permanently vulnerable to raids, and no one else there has spoken in support of that -- instead of the straw man you constructed to evade that point.

You're native, Topid, but you're also a native with a vested interest in one side of the raider-defender conflict. You've partaken of the defender kool-aid and found it tasty. I would like to hear from a native whose sole interest is in St Abbaddon, and I don't think that's unreasonable.

I've launched a counter-campaign against this proposal.

[Topid]

I haven't campaigned yet. I'll do so closer to the quorum expiring since I have two resolutions ahead of me in line.

I did miss that word, my mistake. There are no other natives unless Hawkswind comes back. The active core of us was Hawk, myself, Pse, Andrew, and Spec. There were two or three other people that were also active 3-4 years ago whom didn't stick around long enough for me to be able to recall their names. All of those users are now CTE with the exception of Hawk who will be CTE in about a week at this rate (unless he turned on vacation mode before he left). So this not only has native support, it has unanimous native support unless the unlikely event of Hawkswind's return occurs.

Now, we will not be tag raided. I'm not sure how active I'll be but I do know I can put $20-$30 per month into recruitment, which should be plenty to ensure that either myself or someone else (unlikely) has enough endorsements to not be tag raided regardless of other activity levels.

Thank you for your concern Cormac.

[Cormac Stark]

I haven't campaigned yet. I'll do so closer to the quorum expiring since I have two resolutions ahead of me in line.

I did miss that word, my mistake. There are no other natives unless Hawkswind comes back. The active core of us was Hawk, myself, Pse, Andrew, and Spec. There were two or three other people that were also active 3-4 years ago whom didn't stick around long enough for me to be able to recall their names. All of those users are now CTE with the exception of Hawk who will be CTE in about a week at this rate (unless he turned on vacation mode before he left). So this not only has native support, it has unanimous native support unless the unlikely event of Hawkswind's return occurs.

It's just a bit disingenuous to invoke "unanimity" when you claim to be the only native left. Are you sure none of the nations that were in St Abbaddon well before the raid are native? What makes you so sure that we should also be sure?

Now, we will not be tag raided. I'm not sure how active I'll be but I do know I can put $20-$30 per month into recruitment, which should be plenty to ensure that either myself or someone else (unlikely) has enough endorsements to not be tag raided regardless of other activity levels.

This would be more of an assurance if you didn't have a relatively ample history of launching regional recruitment projects, only to eventually cease with those projects and fall inactive, sometimes disappearing from NationStates for long stretches. Who will recruit to provide the buffer against tag raids if that happens? Who will even serve as Delegate if you are, as you claim, the only remaining native?

[Topid]

Fair point on my recruitment history. Though, I hope you also will concede that those have been regions I was not as passionate about as this. The combination of learning about St Abbaddon's long history, the raids, and now your sustained provocations has me feeling more strongly about NS than I have for a while. It is also true that just looking at St Abby's history, my recruitment effort for two months in 2011 left it safe from raids for quite some time, and now that I'm not a college student and working full time I have more money to throw at stamps instead of relying on manual recruitment, which is a less effective but more stable method.

Which nation do you believe is a native Cormac? They are all clearly R/D sleepers, and I'm not saying some of them aren't mine.

At the moment I'm the only non-invader WA other than Hawk in St Abby. So Lib or no Lib, no there would be no delegate of St Abby should I disappear. You are in the unfortunate position of beginning this debate about 8 days away from when the vote on this Liberation will begin, so we will be able to evaluate my recruitment success based on those 8 days. At the time of this posting there are 2 nations in "St Abby" (the back-up region I made) and no WAs. Lets see how I can do in 8 days, no?

[Malisin]

Fair point on my recruitment history. Though, I hope you also will concede that those have been regions I was not as passionate about as this. The combination of learning about St Abbaddon's long history, the raids, and now your sustained provocations has me feeling more strongly about NS than I have for a while. It is also true that just looking at St Abby's history, my recruitment effort for two months in 2011 left it safe from raids for quite some time, and now that I'm not a college student and working full time I have more money to throw at stamps instead of relying on manual recruitment, which is a less effective but more stable method.

Which nation do you believe is a native Cormac? They are all clearly R/D sleepers, and I'm not saying some of them aren't mine.

At the moment I'm the only non-invader WA other than Hawk in St Abby. So Lib or no Lib, no there would be no delegate of St Abby should I disappear. You are in the unfortunate position of beginning this debate about 8 days away from when the vote on this Liberation will begin, so we will be able to evaluate my recruitment success based on those 8 days. At the time of this posting there are 2 nations in "St Abby" (the back-up region I made) and no WAs. Lets see how I can do in 8 days, no?

I was in St Abbaddon for a while before I CTE'd a couple years ago, and I rejoined the region, this is the funny part, about a day before it was raided. I was the first to post on the RMB that we were being raided and the first to tg Hawkswind and the defenders about the attack, but unfortunately Hawkswind was not very active and did not log in before the update removed him from the delegacy. I managed to remain in the region by promising to endorse Durrezz and keep endorsements off myself but I imagine he'll banject me now that I'm posting. I just want it on the record that I'm not a raider should St Abbaddon recover.

[We Are Not the NSA]

98% of all of the current 74 endorsements have come from the DEN since nearly everyone else has withdrawn, while a whole host of militaries are occupying both Middle Earth and Alternate History World. To answer your question on why the occupation stack is relatively high, perhaps it's because our army is just... massive. Welcome to DEN, roll credits.

This total non-sense general .. den shall end up like the black riders

Knot is a Brigadier. And no, DEN has not used any illegal scripts and none of our members are in contact with a DOS player, so we will not end up like TBR. Additionally, Knot backed up his "non-sense" with facts, while you are making a baseless assumption.

[Herby]

Holy crapoly 274 approvals and counting? Wow. Heavy delegate campaign?

[Weed]

Just the usual stamp game.

[Herby]

Just the usual stamp game.

Topid, you mind posting the campaign TG here? Just interested in reading your argument, especially with a competing proposal.

So what happens to the other proposal if this passes first? Can a region be doubly liberated so that two repeals are required to impose a password? Never seen this before.

[Weed]

The other proposal looks to be illegal because of the DEN thing. I am pretty sure the ruling thread thing said something about not spelling your name with bolded first letters.

I'll try to remember to post it, or one of the lovely delegates could do it for me.

I'm on my phone so I'm not just lazy. My laptop is waaaay just out of arms reach of the bed.

[The Silver Sentinel]

Just the usual stamp game.

Topid, you mind posting the campaign TG here? Just interested in reading your argument, especially with a competing proposal.

So what happens to the other proposal if this passes first? Can a region be doubly liberated so that two repeals are required to impose a password? Never seen this before.

I would need to look it up, but I believe Sedge ruled that double liberations are legal.

[Herby]

The other proposal looks to be illegal because of the DEN thing. I am pretty sure the ruling thread thing said something about not spelling your name with bolded first letters.

I'll try to remember to post it, or one of the lovely delegates could do it for me.

I'm on my phone so I'm not just lazy. My laptop is waaaay just out of arms reach of the bed.

That's a GA rule (branding). It's legal in the SC.