[PASSED] Condemn Vandoosa

[-Resdayn-]

Opposed. Vandoosa is not a raider. And even if he was, he keeps a well maintained and happy region. Everyone should ignore this thread and it's contents.

Only reason anyone would even post this is if they were a nation that got kicked out of glorious nations of iwaku for doing wrong and are miffed at vandoosa for it.

No one wanting to enter iwaku should think twice about it cause there is nothing wrong with the region or its awesome founder, and I am personally appalled that this thread even exists.

Vandoosa's participation in raids suggests otherwise.

You got evidence of this claim? I have several puppet nations in iwaku and I have never heard him brag about a raid or anyone mentioning him being in a raid like ever.

[Idzequitch]

Vandoosa's participation in raids suggests otherwise.

You got evidence of this claim? I have several puppet nations in iwaku and I have never heard him brag about a raid or anyone mentioning him being in a raid like ever.

Notice the top name on the WFE here

[-Resdayn-]

You got evidence of this claim? I have several puppet nations in iwaku and I have never heard him brag about a raid or anyone mentioning him being in a raid like ever.

Notice the top name on the WFE here

Well I'll be damned. This is news to me. Wonder why he never mentioned this. Odd.
I will have to have a talk with him now.

[The Patrimony of Saint Peter]

I like Vandoosa.

[-Resdayn-]

I like Vandoosa.

Most people do. He is usually quite friendly and upbeat.
Which makes it odd that he joined the black riders, one of the most hated groups in nationstates.

[The Silver Sentinel]

Which makes it odd that he joined the black riders, one of the most hated groups in nationstates.

Vandoosa joined The Black Riders long before you joined the game.

[Idzequitch]

Which makes it odd that he joined the black riders, one of the most hated groups in nationstates.

Vandoosa joined The Black Riders long before you joined the game.

Indeed. My old main nation was Delegate of a region for a time, and Vandoosa TG'ed me, jokingly threatening to raid my region, then telling me of exploits in actual raids. This happened nigh on three years ago now.

[Vandoosa]

Opposed. Vandoosa is not a raider. And even if he was, he keeps a well maintained and happy region. Everyone should ignore this thread and it's contents.

Only reason anyone would even post this is if they were a nation that got kicked out of glorious nations of iwaku for doing wrong and are miffed at vandoosa for it.

No one wanting to enter iwaku should think twice about it cause there is nothing wrong with the region or its awesome founder, and I am personally appalled that this thread even exists.

Yep! I never did anything evil!

You got evidence of this claim? I have several puppet nations in iwaku and I have never heard him brag about a raid or anyone mentioning him being in a raid like ever.

Notice the top name on the WFE here

er.. uh.. *looks around a bit* I did not have relations with that delegate! *blink*

Vandoosa joined The Black Riders long before you joined the game.

Indeed. My old main nation was Delegate of a region for a time, and Vandoosa TG'ed me, jokingly threatening to raid my region, then telling me of exploits in actual raids. This happened nigh on three years ago now.

Wait you remember that? er.. *totally never threatened to reduce any region to a sea of flames before* what region was it? North Korea? The New British Empire?

[Sternberg]

Alright, before I begin, I need to get something out there: I have known a puppet of Vandoosa's for a little under two years and have a secondary (albeit, recent) nation in the Glorious Regions of Iwaku. As a result, some might consider my feedback as biased of someone "defending a raider" - which, since I do not utterly care, if not despise, the 'politics' of R/D on both sides of the fence, I consider such an accusation worthless.

With that said, let's get into the submission as-is:

Acknowledging Vandoosa as the founder of the Glorious Nations of Iwaku.

Noting that when it was created, Vandoosa worked tirelessly to recruit and welcome new members into the region, thus bringing it up into the top 30 largest regions of NationStates.

Shocked however, when such a promising nation showed its true colors, and turned to destroying the regions of others, through invasion and slaughter.

Further shocked at the way the young nation readily joined prominent and infamous raiding organisations, in order to help them ruin and ravage the regions of others.

Observing Vandoosa's steep climb through the ranks of the current 2 largest and most active raider organisations - Cimmeria (now The Black Riders) and DEN, in the latter of which it is currently the second highest ranking NCO.

Pretty stock-standard opening clauses here, so no comment on them (apart from a personal hypothetical as to whether they could be compressed for brevity). However, I am a little confused regarding the tail-end of the second clause; why is that statistic relevant to a Condemnation?

Realizing that the high efficiency of Cimmeria and disgustingly large numbers of tags made by this organisation , could have been avoided without the presence of Vandoosa, who has grown to be the right hand of, and second in command to Cora, the current leader of Cimmeria.

Fair enough, but I'm not so sure about this allegation. Even if, hypothetically, Vandoosa had not been behind those operations, how would we know that another 2IC just as competent wouldn't have been able to pull the same thing off? In effect, what was it about Vandoosa's methods that made them stand out from the others to allow such a degree of success?

Perhaps this point might need to be explained a little if this proposal is up for re-drafting (that is, if it doesn't go through the first time).

Appalled that since becoming a raider Vandoosa has forcefully wrenched delegacy from the rightful rulers of in well over five hundred regions, and has helped others to do so in thousands more. Vandoosa has also participated in five major DEN operations, including the most recent one in the peaceful region of St Abbaddon. There, Vandoosa spearheaded both the major and minor update operations, leading up to the capture of the region by DEN.

That's a serious allegation being made. Does the drafter have any precise figures or evidence to back this up, or those underlined phrases speculation?

Disgusted that Vandoosa often ridicules the native residents of invaded regions region, flooding the RMB with spam and themed pictures, which reflect badly on those citizens of The Glorious Nations of Iwaku, which are unaware of their founders evildoings.

Compared to those who have locked out or completely ejected all natives from a region, or those who even go as far as outright region deletion, I personally consider such "evildoings" mild-ish. Is there anything further to this that Vandoosa (and Vandoosa alone) does, or is that it?

Concerned that since Vandoosa's degradation, the innocent region of Glorious Nations of Iwaku has begun to fall apart, due to the founder’s lack of attention to the region and its issues, moving down to outside the top 40 largest regions of NationStates.

Oh, so this was why the author brought up the second clause to metio- I'm sorry; WHAT?

Why should the region of Iwaku, indeed ANY region, give a care if their region falls outside of some kind of arbitrary size and population metric? The populations of regions come and go all the time; heck, my own host region briefly shot up the ranks several months ago when we had an influx of nations before settling down roughly to where we were beforehand. In my opinion, only those deliberately aiming for those top positions would truly care about where they sit in the nation ranks, and I sincerely doubt there are many regions who would set such a goal and maintain it consistently.

And as a newer Iwakunite, what exact issues has Iwaku been facing that are worth bringing up as concern as part of a Condemnation? To the best of my knowledge, the regional officers of the region do have things, more or less, in hand.

Understanding the importance of educating those who may seek to join The Glorious Nations of Iwaku in the future, as to the region founder’s true colors.

Wishing that those who may later seek to join the region, will think twice before doing so, having seen the condemned founder, and not wishing to affiliate themselves with such a nation.

And how exactly is this Condemnation supposed to "educate" current or future nations about the founder of Iwaku's "true colours"? How exactly does the author expect a Condemnation to thoroughly deter a nation from, say, joining the region of Iwaku or liaising with Vandoosa? I sincerely doubt that a Condemnation alone can act as thorough a deterrence as the author hopes.

Overall, I'm sorry to say that I have no confidence in this resolution as submitted. As a result, I will personally OPPOSE this resolution when it goes to vote. If there was to be a thorough Condemnation of Vandoosa (or some kind of "honor badge" for raiders), then I do not think this is it.

[Tir-Na-Nog-Ta]

For all this "Vandoosa isnt a raider stuff"

1) Read my proposal
2) Please... read it
3) No seriously, read it before you post.

For those who want proof.

1) Go to his nation page
2) Actually open a factbook
3) http://www.nationstates.net/nation=vand ... /id=274247 all his puppets.

I believe you will find a "Miss Hungary" amongst them, on any DEN op, thats listed in the WFE as DEN Major.
Also "Cimmeria Puppet" and "DEN Puppet", seem a bit suspicious no?

Lastly http://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=532805

[sarcasm] "Colonel Vandoosa" accidentally ended up there dw. Just a "typo". [/sarcasm]

[Tir-Na-Nog-Ta]

Pretty stock-standard opening clauses here, so no comment on them (apart from a personal hypothetical as to whether they could be compressed for brevity). However, I am a little confused regarding the tail-end of the second clause; why is that statistic relevant to a Condemnation?

Acknowledging ones achievements is just as important as their evildoings. He IS the founder is he not?

Fair enough, but I'm not so sure about this allegation. Even if, hypothetically, Vandoosa had not been behind those operations, how would we know that another 2IC just as competent wouldn't have been able to pull the same thing off? In effect, what was it about Vandoosa's methods that made them stand out from the others to allow such a degree of success?

He's the fastest active switcher in Cimmeria, with the highest raiding statistics after Cora.

That's a serious allegation being made. Does the drafter have any precise figures or evidence to back this up, or those underlined phrases speculation?

Yes. I do. They're specific to the nearest 1000 and are from a source that knows Vandoosa quite well.

Compared to those who have locked out or completely ejected all natives from a region, or those who even go as far as outright region deletion, I personally consider such "evildoings" mild-ish. Is there anything further to this that Vandoosa (and Vandoosa alone) does, or is that it?

1) Vandoosa is nearly singular in this approach
2) Its a rather bad thing. Theres an entire thread or bit of a thread on this somewhere in the Gameplay forum, I think its part of the TBR thread. When raiders start to improvise, the raid gets quite a bit worse. Its not as bad as the behaviour during an invasion, but is despicable nevertheless.

And how exactly is this Condemnation supposed to "educate" current or future nations about the founder of Iwaku's "true colours"? How exactly does the author expect a Condemnation to thoroughly deter a nation from, say, joining the region of Iwaku or liaising with Vandoosa? I sincerely doubt that a Condemnation alone can act as thorough a deterrence as the author hopes.

Ever heard of a tiny region called Pacific? After it got condemned, numbers started dropping like crazy.

[Third Reich of Vandoosa]

Hello lovelies!!

[Parhelios]

The resolution in the queue wrongly references Alternate World History, as opposed to Alternate History World, which you only changed in the thread.

[Tir-Na-Nog-Ta]

I know. I've already sent a telegram thanking you .

[Tim-Opolis]

I know. I've already sent a telegram thanking you .

At this point in time, you've got enough approvals that it's going to vote. Save the queue pain, man, and just pull it so you can at least fix all the blatant issue before it gets voted down by everyone please.

[Tir-Na-Nog-Ta]

Its only 1 issue, and when you click on the region, there is a link there to the actual thing.

I'd rather not pull it down.

[CreepyCut]

Against.

I like this person.

[The Silver Sentinel]

Against.

I like this person.

You do realize Vandy wants a badge right?

[CreepyCut]

Against.

I like this person.

You do realize Vandy wants a badge right?

Yes but I'm an evil bastard. So...

[The Union of Life]

Given that The Cacaphony of Vandoosa is categorized as a 'corporate police state,' has a quote which says "don't condemn me or i'll raid your region," has civil rights which are 'unheard of' and has 'outlawed' political freedom we do not think there is much of anything that can be said in Vandoosa's favor.

Vandoosa's current state of existence speaks volumes against the quality of its character.

[Solarmania]

This is pointless. WHY would you give Vandoosa a badge of honor? Also, use of Notepad. AGAINST

[Tir-Na-Nog-Ta]

This is pointless. WHY would you give Vandoosa a badge of honor? Also, use of Notepad. AGAINST

1) Read my proposal. Generally thats where reasons get written.
2) How is use of Notepad a reason to vote against? My proposal looks no worse than the next in terms of presentation imo. I see no bad things caused by my use of Notepad...

[Wallenburg]

Yet again, the Security Council must bear through a mediocre resolution, one that ignores reality in favor of a fantasy that manages to justify handing a condemnation to a nation that has explicitly demonstrated a desire to be condemned. Apart from the obvious problems inherent in any condemnation of this raiding nation, this resolution contains several basic errors, including:

• A reference to "Nationstates", no less cryptic than when it was used in the condemnation of DEN.
• Two acronyms--"NS" and "RMB"--with no known meaning.
• The assertion that Vandoosa participated in raiding Alternate World History and is its current delegate to the World Assembly, both of which are false.
• The claim that Glorious Nations of Iwaku has fallen apart directly due to Vandoosa's actions, when the region has not fallen at all, and is actually quite healthy.

For these reasons I see absolutely no reason to condemn Vandoosa, and I can even demonstrate a strong incentive not to condemn it. Certainly, Vandoosa is a raiding nation, but rewarding a raider with a condemnation will do nothing to mitigate the horrors of raiding.

[Solarmania]

This is pointless. WHY would you give Vandoosa a badge of honor? Also, use of Notepad. AGAINST

1) Read my proposal. Generally thats where reasons get written.
2) How is use of Notepad a reason to vote against? My proposal looks no worse than the next in terms of presentation imo. I see no bad things caused by my use of Notepad...

You don't understand, do you? What I mean by "pointless" is that this resolution is not going to make any difference. Oh sure, toss enough s**t at the wall and some of it will stick, because this is about the millionth time that someone has tried to condemm Vandoosa. As for the use of Notepad, just WHY?

Also, congratulations on making it impossible for Vandoosa to act on their threat of raiding your reigon. There is a saying that even a lion finds it hard to kill a badger if it has dug into its own hole.

[BPSR Ambassador]

Vandoosa is a fascist. I condemn anyone with that title.