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[PASSED] Reducing Statelessness

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The Silver Sentinel
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Postby The Silver Sentinel » Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:07 pm

Wrapper wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:This legislates out the 'nations' -> metagaming.

By putting this in and decreeing that from now on nations = WA nations you are gutting such resolutions, decreeing child pornography can be exported to non-member nations in certain circumstances (age of consent in non-member nation lower than age of consent in member nation)..

Which also makes this illegal for contradiction, on top of duplicating Refugee Protection. The illegal just keeps piling up in this one.

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Kelssek
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Postby Kelssek » Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:38 pm

The Silver Sentinel wrote:I am still trying to figure out how this does not duplicate Refugee Protection.

For instance Refugee Protection defines a refugee as "A refugee shall be defined, for the purposes of this resolution, as any person who is for any reason outside the country of their nationality and cannot avail themselves of the protection of their country of nationality, or who refuses to do so because of a well-founded fear of unjust persecution. This shall not exclude persons also defined as refugees under different criteria by provisions of national or other international law.". Under this definition, any person who has been made stateless becomes a refugee and thus is automatically granted protection under Refugee Protection.


Statelessness wasn't something our delegation thought about directly while writing up that definition. That would seem to be valid technically, in the sense that someone who has no nationality is outside their country of nationality, but one could also note that the definition presumes the person in question has a nationality, and a stateless person has no country of nationality to be outside of. It's thinkable that the definition could be ruled to apply to stateless people, but for our part we do think explicitly preventing statelessness would be a valuable addition and not mere duplication.

[edit] As to whether this is the right proposal to accomplish that, our position isn't decided.

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Last edited by Kelssek on Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:28 pm

Wrapper wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:This legislates out the 'nations' -> metagaming.

Oh for crying out loud. Take it out. We have resolutions that legally act on member nations yet restrict what they do with non-member nations. This includes GAR#300 for example. By putting this in and decreeing that from now on nations = WA nations you are gutting such resolutions, decreeing child pornography can be exported to non-member nations in certain circumstances (age of consent in non-member nation lower than age of consent in member nation).

Nothing a forward-dating clause wouldn't solve.

Wrapper wrote:OOC: I mean, what the fuck? "Nations" has always been legal, it's "all nations" that isn't. You keep this in and I will file a GHR to get it removed because of your stated intent.

Consistently, I remember it hasn't.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:16 pm

Bump.

OOC: I've removed the 'definition of a nation clause' due to some pragmatic considerations and effects on the interpretation of future legislation. Was reminded of this by States of Glory.
Last edited by Imperium Anglorum on Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Bananaistan
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Postby Bananaistan » Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:38 pm

"We withdraw our former opposition to this proposal given the changes. While we are still uncomfortable with the WA issuing passports, this is no longer a major issue in the proposal. The WA issued passports would be given to the finite group of people who are currently stateless while member states are prohibited from adding any more people to this group by clause 1.

"Clause 1 in itself is admirable and worthy of the support of any reasonable nation.

"We will vote in favour should it reach the floor."

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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:46 pm

"Wallenburg will oppose this resolution, despite my predecessor's strange decision to support it previously."
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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:11 am

Changes have been made to use the word nationality rather than citizenship due to the comments which Bears Armed made many pages and nearly a year ago. They were not reflected at the time. They are reflected now.

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States of Glory WA Office
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Postby States of Glory WA Office » Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:07 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:OOC: I've removed the 'definition of a nation clause' due to some pragmatic considerations and effects on the interpretation of future legislation. Was reminded of this by States of Glory.

OOC: What clause? This is why it's a good idea to save your old drafts. Anyway, would I be right in saying that the bulk of my Banishment resolution is covered by Clause One?

Imperium Anglorum wrote:Changes have been made to use the word nationality rather than citizenship due to the comments which Bears Armed made many pages and nearly a year ago. They were not reflected at the time. They are reflected now.

OOC: Wouldn't this result in situations where a person doesn't hold citizenship in any country?
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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:14 pm

States of Glory WA Office wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:OOC: I've removed the 'definition of a nation clause' due to some pragmatic considerations and effects on the interpretation of future legislation. Was reminded of this by States of Glory.

OOC: What clause? This is why it's a good idea to save your old drafts. Anyway, would I be right in saying that the bulk of my Banishment resolution is covered by Clause One?

OOC: A clause was included in an earlier iteration of this draft in which the word 'nation' was defined as all member nations.

States of Glory WA Office wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Changes have been made to use the word nationality rather than citizenship due to the comments which Bears Armed made many pages and nearly a year ago. They were not reflected at the time. They are reflected now.

OOC: Wouldn't this result in situations where a person doesn't hold citizenship in any country?

viewtopic.php?p=26705722#p26705722

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States of Glory WA Office
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Postby States of Glory WA Office » Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:20 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
States of Glory WA Office wrote:OOC: What clause? This is why it's a good idea to save your old drafts. Anyway, would I be right in saying that the bulk of my Banishment resolution is covered by Clause One?

OOC: A clause was included in an earlier iteration of this draft in which the word 'nation' was defined as all member nations.

OOC: Oh, yeah, I remember now. Honest question: Were you expecting that definition to sneak through?

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
States of Glory WA Office wrote:OOC: Wouldn't this result in situations where a person doesn't hold citizenship in any country?

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p26705722

OOC: That doesn't answer my question. While a country can no longer strip someone of their nationality if it will leave them stateless, couldn't they still strip them of their citizenship and make it so that the person has no political rights in any country?
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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:39 pm

States of Glory WA Office wrote:

OOC: That doesn't answer my question. While a country can no longer strip someone of their nationality if it will leave them stateless, couldn't they still strip them of their citizenship and make it so that the person has no political rights in any country?

OOC: Puerto Ricans in the United States are not US citizens. They are US nationals. They cannot vote in United States elections. But if their nationality were stripped, that would mean that their property could be expropriated, their person deported, and make it impossible for any state to recognise them. Nationality does entail the privilege of some basic rights, and the purpose of this proposal is to protect those rights. A resolution preventing the stripping of one's citizenship without due process is something which I would support. But it is not this proposal.

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States of Glory WA Office
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Postby States of Glory WA Office » Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:55 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
States of Glory WA Office wrote:OOC: That doesn't answer my question. While a country can no longer strip someone of their nationality if it will leave them stateless, couldn't they still strip them of their citizenship and make it so that the person has no political rights in any country?

OOC: Puerto Ricans in the United States are not US citizens. They are US nationals. They cannot vote in United States elections. But if their nationality were stripped, that would mean that their property could be expropriated, their person deported, and make it impossible for any state to recognise them. Nationality does entail the privilege of some basic rights, and the purpose of this proposal is to protect those rights. A resolution preventing the stripping of one's citizenship without due process is something which I would support. But it is not this proposal.

OOC: Would you advise, then, that I rework my Banishment proposal to deal with loss of citizenship instead?
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Sat Oct 08, 2016 3:30 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
States of Glory WA Office wrote:OOC: That doesn't answer my question. While a country can no longer strip someone of their nationality if it will leave them stateless, couldn't they still strip them of their citizenship and make it so that the person has no political rights in any country?

OOC: Puerto Ricans in the United States are not US citizens. They are US nationals. They cannot vote in United States elections. But if their nationality were stripped, that would mean that their property could be expropriated, their person deported, and make it impossible for any state to recognise them. Nationality does entail the privilege of some basic rights, and the purpose of this proposal is to protect those rights. A resolution preventing the stripping of one's citizenship without due process is something which I would support. But it is not this proposal.

OOC: Puerto Ricans are US citizens. They have been since 1917.
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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sat Oct 08, 2016 3:43 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:OOC: Puerto Ricans in the United States are not US citizens. They are US nationals. They cannot vote in United States elections. But if their nationality were stripped, that would mean that their property could be expropriated, their person deported, and make it impossible for any state to recognise them. Nationality does entail the privilege of some basic rights, and the purpose of this proposal is to protect those rights. A resolution preventing the stripping of one's citizenship without due process is something which I would support. But it is not this proposal.

OOC: Puerto Ricans are US citizens. They have been since 1917.

OOC: Okay. Then replace Puerto Ricans with something else. Whoops.

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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:19 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:OOC: Puerto Ricans are US citizens. They have been since 1917.

OOC: Okay. Then replace Puerto Ricans with something else. Whoops.

OOC: American Samoans. :)
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:04 pm

Oh, this will contradict the tabacco one
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:05 pm

Australian Republic wrote:Oh, this will contradict the tabacco one

"Good thing the tobacco one isn't going anywhere."

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:27 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:OOC: Okay. Then replace Puerto Ricans with something else. Whoops.

OOC: American Samoans. :)

OOC: Yea, them!

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Australian Republic wrote:Oh, this will contradict the tabacco one

"Good thing the tobacco one isn't going anywhere."

I will race to pen the repeal if it, by some miracle, does go someplace.
Last edited by Imperium Anglorum on Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:43 pm

"So how is it possible to take away someone's nationality?"
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:00 pm

Wallenburg wrote:"So how is it possible to take away someone's nationality?"

"In a legal sense? With the stroke of a pen, your Excellency. They may never not be from your country, but you can nullify any legal meaning behind it."

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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:42 am

States of Glory WA Office wrote:OOC: That doesn't answer my question. While a country can no longer strip someone of their nationality if it will leave them stateless, couldn't they still strip them of their citizenship and make it so that the person has no political rights in any country?

OOC: It happens (c.f. the status of 'Black' South Africans under Apartheid...), and the WA trying to mandate political rights for anybody verges on 'ideological ban' territory against non-democratic systems of government.
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States of Glory WA Office
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Postby States of Glory WA Office » Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:54 pm

Bears Armed wrote:
States of Glory WA Office wrote:OOC: That doesn't answer my question. While a country can no longer strip someone of their nationality if it will leave them stateless, couldn't they still strip them of their citizenship and make it so that the person has no political rights in any country?

OOC: It happens (c.f. the status of 'Black' South Africans under Apartheid...), and the WA trying to mandate political rights for anybody verges on 'ideological ban' territory against non-democratic systems of government.

OOC: If citizenship carries with it political rights, how does it work in non-democratic states?
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Tinfect
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Postby Tinfect » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:24 pm

States of Glory WA Office wrote:OOC: If citizenship carries with it political rights, how does it work in non-democratic states?


OOC:
From Wikipedia:
Political rights include natural justice (procedural fairness) in law, such as the rights of the accused, including the right to a fair trial; due process; the right to seek redress or a legal remedy; and rights of participation in civil society and politics such as freedom of association, the right to assemble, the right to petition, the right of self-defense, and the right to vote.

Obviously, that last one can be ignored, but the rest can exist quite nicely in Autocracies, assuming the Government is remotely reasonable, which, admittedly, is rather improbable. Fortunately, the WA has several resolutions securing most of them quite nicely.
Last edited by Tinfect on Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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States of Glory WA Office
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Postby States of Glory WA Office » Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:26 pm

Tinfect wrote:
States of Glory WA Office wrote:OOC: If citizenship carries with it political rights, how does it work in non-democratic states?


OOC:
From Wikipedia:
Political rights include natural justice (procedural fairness) in law, such as the rights of the accused, including the right to a fair trial; due process; the right to seek redress or a legal remedy; and rights of participation in civil society and politics such as freedom of association, the right to assemble, the right to petition, the right of self-defense, and the right to vote.

Obviously, that last one can be ignored, but the rest can exist quite nicely in Autocracies, assuming the Government is remotely reasonable, which, admittedly, is rather improbable. Fortunately, the WA has several resolutions securing most of them quite nicely.

OOC: This just makes me wonder even more why nationality is protected but citizenship is not.
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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:43 am

States of Glory WA Office wrote:
Bears Armed wrote:OOC: It happens (c.f. the status of 'Black' South Africans under Apartheid...), and the WA trying to mandate political rights for anybody verges on 'ideological ban' territory against non-democratic systems of government.

OOC: If citizenship carries with it political rights, how does it work in non-democratic states?

OOC; Do they actually have 'citizens', designated as such, rather than just 'nationals' or 'subjects'?

And re the 'Wikipedia' quote, what I meant by "political rights" in this context was simply the rights to vote and to run for office.
Last edited by Bears Armed on Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Our population is approximately 20 million. We do have a national government, although its role is strictly limited. Economy = thriving. Those aren't "biker gangs", they're our traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies'... and are generally respected, not feared.
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