NATION

PASSWORD

[PASSED] Reducing Statelessness

A carefully preserved record of the most notable World Assembly debates.

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Araraukar
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15261
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:03 pm

OOC: Btw, since mods apparently read this thread, shouldn't GESTAPO count as RL reference? And a fairly offensive one at that? Or would we allowed to be made a committee named Non-Aggressive Zealous Institution?
Last edited by Araraukar on Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Coronavirus related. This too. And this. These are all jokes. This isn't. This is, again, but it's also the last one.

User avatar
Imperium Anglorum
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9705
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:12 pm

Araraukar wrote:OOC: Btw, since mods apparently read this thread, shouldn't GESTAPO count as RL reference? And a fairly offensive one at that? Or would we allowed to be made a committee named Non-Aggressive Zealous Institution?

That ruling would basically mean that the original resolution should be illegal. And also that nothing could ever mention the committee again.

Author: 1 SC and 36 GA resolutions
Maintainer: GA Passed Resolutions
Developer: Communiqué and InfoEurope
Toxic villainous globalist kittehs
Delegate for Europe
Elsie Mortimer Wellesley (EMW); OOC unless otherwise indicated
Ideological Bulwark 285, WALL delegate
Dastardly villain providing free services to the community sans remuneration

User avatar
Araraukar
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15261
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:23 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:That ruling would basically mean that the original resolution should be illegal.

OOC: It probably should.

And also that nothing could ever mention the committee again.

Which would likely be for the best.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Coronavirus related. This too. And this. These are all jokes. This isn't. This is, again, but it's also the last one.

User avatar
Imperium Anglorum
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9705
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:23 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:That ruling would basically mean that the original resolution should be illegal.

OOC: It probably should.

And also that nothing could ever mention the committee again.

Which would likely be for the best.

How are you going to get the original one removed? Secretariat action?

Author: 1 SC and 36 GA resolutions
Maintainer: GA Passed Resolutions
Developer: Communiqué and InfoEurope
Toxic villainous globalist kittehs
Delegate for Europe
Elsie Mortimer Wellesley (EMW); OOC unless otherwise indicated
Ideological Bulwark 285, WALL delegate
Dastardly villain providing free services to the community sans remuneration

User avatar
Araraukar
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15261
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:39 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:How are you going to get the original one removed? Secretariat action?

OOC: I'm not allowed opinions now? However, re-using a bad idea is still a bad idea.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Coronavirus related. This too. And this. These are all jokes. This isn't. This is, again, but it's also the last one.

User avatar
Imperium Anglorum
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9705
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:55 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:How are you going to get the original one removed? Secretariat action?

OOC: I'm not allowed opinions now? However, re-using a bad idea is still a bad idea.

Please tell me where I said you cannot have opinions. I'm asking where how your opinion would be implemented.

Author: 1 SC and 36 GA resolutions
Maintainer: GA Passed Resolutions
Developer: Communiqué and InfoEurope
Toxic villainous globalist kittehs
Delegate for Europe
Elsie Mortimer Wellesley (EMW); OOC unless otherwise indicated
Ideological Bulwark 285, WALL delegate
Dastardly villain providing free services to the community sans remuneration

User avatar
Tinfect
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5026
Founded: Jul 04, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tinfect » Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:That ruling would basically mean that the original resolution should be illegal.

OOC: It probably should.


OOC:
No, it shouldn't.

Araraukar wrote:
And also that nothing could ever mention the committee again.

Which would likely be for the best.


No, it wouldn't.
Raslin Seretis, Imperial Diplomatic Envoy, Male
Tolarn Feren, Civil Oversight Representative, Male
Jasot Rehlan, Military Oversight Representative, Female


Bisexual, Transgender (She/Her), Native-American, and Actual CommunistTM.

Imperium Central News Network: Military Oversight announces Doctrinal Reform Plan, upcoming military trials | Former Intelligence Director Taraen Vallir, additional operatives executed | 200 year old Varat destroyer found in Balder orbit at historic shipyard location, presumed malfunction of still-installed warp drive | Archive Systems, Hyperpulse Network briefly disabled following accidental release of experimental assistance program | Indomitable Bastard #283
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

User avatar
Muscalia
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 17
Founded: Dec 27, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Muscalia » Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:10 pm

The Silver Sentinel wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:OOC: I'll have to check, but isn't it already illegal to deprive WA members citizens of citizenship without their having a replacement citizenship ready? Or am I thinking of real world laws again?

Wouldn't matter. If they are deprived of their citizenship, they in effect become refugee's and Refugee Protection would apply making this whole mess illegal for duplication. 8)



Second.
Representative Jorge Amos, Entrusted with all the powers and authority henceforth, is recognized by the Democratic Republic of Muscalia as its International representative.


The government is us; WE are the government, you and I.- Theodore Roosevelt

User avatar
Araraukar
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15261
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:05 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
Araraukar wrote:OOC: I'm not allowed opinions now? However, re-using a bad idea is still a bad idea.

Please tell me where I said you cannot have opinions. I'm asking where how your opinion would be implemented.

OOC: I meant that I am allowed to hold an opinion of something (in this case "GESTAPO" being an offensive RL reference and thus making the resolution that establishes it something that shouldn't have passed) without actively trying to remove it, and especially without actively trying to remove it via what you seem to refer to as underhanded tactics (using mods rather than a repeal). That resolution was passed at a time when I wasn't, due to various reasons, partaking drafting.

Just because something passed in the past, doesn't mean it would work as a precedent for passing something similar now. This may work differently for existing committees, but that doesn't change the fact that it is in my opinion an offensive RL reference for a committee name shortening. I'm wondering now what the mods would think of a committee name that would come up as NAZI (Naturally Applied Zoological Institution, perhaps?) or worse.

The only saving grace of your proposal on this issue (committee name) is that it doesn't use the shortening.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Coronavirus related. This too. And this. These are all jokes. This isn't. This is, again, but it's also the last one.

User avatar
Mallorea and Riva
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 9427
Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:16 pm

Araraukar wrote:OOC: Btw, since mods apparently read this thread, shouldn't GESTAPO count as RL reference? And a fairly offensive one at that? Or would we allowed to be made a committee named Non-Aggressive Zealous Institution?

The Real World violation rule contemplates that players are referring to things or people that exist in the real world as they exist in the real world. As such, using GESTAPO as an acronym is not a violation. It doesn't cross the line in terms of offensiveness in my eyes either.
Ideological Bulwark #253
Major of The Black Hawks
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Jakker, Tal, and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: Major benefit of securing the delegacy of Asia ASAP: this debate ends and I don't have to read any more of what Mall says.

User avatar
Imperium Anglorum
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9705
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:54 pm

Araraukar wrote:The only saving grace of your proposal on this issue (committee name) is that it doesn't use the shortening.

Mate. I also don't like the acronym. That's why I didn't use it. Comparatively, it's much better than all prior ones.

Author: 1 SC and 36 GA resolutions
Maintainer: GA Passed Resolutions
Developer: Communiqué and InfoEurope
Toxic villainous globalist kittehs
Delegate for Europe
Elsie Mortimer Wellesley (EMW); OOC unless otherwise indicated
Ideological Bulwark 285, WALL delegate
Dastardly villain providing free services to the community sans remuneration

User avatar
Araraukar
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15261
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:37 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
Araraukar wrote:The only saving grace of your proposal on this issue (committee name) is that it doesn't use the shortening.

Mate. I also don't like the acronym. That's why I didn't use it. Comparatively, it's much better than all prior ones.

OOC: This may be the only case in which I'd suggest not using an existing committee. :p
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Coronavirus related. This too. And this. These are all jokes. This isn't. This is, again, but it's also the last one.

User avatar
Imperium Anglorum
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9705
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:10 am

Araraukar wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Mate. I also don't like the acronym. That's why I didn't use it. Comparatively, it's much better than all prior ones.

OOC: This may be the only case in which I'd suggest not using an existing committee. :p

OOC: Then, you could always advise to anyone who is to use the committee that it should be termed something like the 'Passport Organisation', 'Global Immigration Organisation', etc.

Author: 1 SC and 36 GA resolutions
Maintainer: GA Passed Resolutions
Developer: Communiqué and InfoEurope
Toxic villainous globalist kittehs
Delegate for Europe
Elsie Mortimer Wellesley (EMW); OOC unless otherwise indicated
Ideological Bulwark 285, WALL delegate
Dastardly villain providing free services to the community sans remuneration

User avatar
Imperium Anglorum
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9705
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:48 pm

Anyway, I'd like to send this to the floor some time, preferably after Separatist People's resolution is finished voting.

Author: 1 SC and 36 GA resolutions
Maintainer: GA Passed Resolutions
Developer: Communiqué and InfoEurope
Toxic villainous globalist kittehs
Delegate for Europe
Elsie Mortimer Wellesley (EMW); OOC unless otherwise indicated
Ideological Bulwark 285, WALL delegate
Dastardly villain providing free services to the community sans remuneration

User avatar
Wrapper
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 5914
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Wrapper » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:55 pm

You don't need clause 1 if every time you use the word "nation" you're already using the phrase "member nation". Other than that, it looks good to us, we'll support this.

User avatar
Imperium Anglorum
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9705
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:21 pm

Wrapper wrote:You don't need clause 1 if every time you use the word "nation" you're already using the phrase "member nation". Other than that, it looks good to us, we'll support this.

It's for all future resolutions.
Last edited by Imperium Anglorum on Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Author: 1 SC and 36 GA resolutions
Maintainer: GA Passed Resolutions
Developer: Communiqué and InfoEurope
Toxic villainous globalist kittehs
Delegate for Europe
Elsie Mortimer Wellesley (EMW); OOC unless otherwise indicated
Ideological Bulwark 285, WALL delegate
Dastardly villain providing free services to the community sans remuneration

User avatar
Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 15315
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:32 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
Wrapper wrote:You don't need clause 1 if every time you use the word "nation" you're already using the phrase "member nation". Other than that, it looks good to us, we'll support this.

It's for all future resolutions.

"Member states are the only states resolutions can act upon. By the nature of the system, that is implied. Moreover, a phrase can be redefine with ease in another resolution, so it makes little difference to attempt to define it in perpetuity."

His Worshipfulness Lord GA Secretariat, Authority on All Existence, Arbiter of Right, Toxic Globalist Dog, Dark Psychic Vampire, and Chief Populist Elitist!
Separatist Peoples should RESIGN!

User avatar
Mousebumples
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 8501
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Mousebumples » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:06 pm

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Araraukar wrote:OOC: Btw, since mods apparently read this thread, shouldn't GESTAPO count as RL reference? And a fairly offensive one at that? Or would we allowed to be made a committee named Non-Aggressive Zealous Institution?

The Real World violation rule contemplates that players are referring to things or people that exist in the real world as they exist in the real world. As such, using GESTAPO as an acronym is not a violation. It doesn't cross the line in terms of offensiveness in my eyes either.

Agreed. I would recommend against using the acronym in your proposal (or any proposal), if only because I think you'll have people voting against on those grounds. However, the committee itself (or its name) are not a rule violation, in my view.
Leader of the Mouse-a-rific Mousetastic Moderator Mousedom of Mousebumples
Past WA Delegate for Europeia & Monkey Island
Proud Member of UNOG
I'm an "adorably marvelous NatSov" - Mallorea and Riva
GA Resolutions (sorted by category) | Why Repeal? | Reppy's Sig Workshop

User avatar
Imperium Anglorum
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9705
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:15 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:It's for all future resolutions.

"Member states are the only states resolutions can act upon. By the nature of the system, that is implied. Moreover, a phrase can be redefine with ease in another resolution, so it makes little difference to attempt to define it in perpetuity."

This legislates out the 'nations' -> metagaming.

Mousebumples wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:The Real World violation rule contemplates that players are referring to things or people that exist in the real world as they exist in the real world. As such, using GESTAPO as an acronym is not a violation. It doesn't cross the line in terms of offensiveness in my eyes either.

Agreed. I would recommend against using the acronym in your proposal (or any proposal), if only because I think you'll have people voting against on those grounds. However, the committee itself (or its name) are not a rule violation, in my view.

That's why I am using a different name for the committee.

Author: 1 SC and 36 GA resolutions
Maintainer: GA Passed Resolutions
Developer: Communiqué and InfoEurope
Toxic villainous globalist kittehs
Delegate for Europe
Elsie Mortimer Wellesley (EMW); OOC unless otherwise indicated
Ideological Bulwark 285, WALL delegate
Dastardly villain providing free services to the community sans remuneration

User avatar
Imperium Anglorum
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9705
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:29 am

OOC: I intend to send this to the floor some time soon.

Author: 1 SC and 36 GA resolutions
Maintainer: GA Passed Resolutions
Developer: Communiqué and InfoEurope
Toxic villainous globalist kittehs
Delegate for Europe
Elsie Mortimer Wellesley (EMW); OOC unless otherwise indicated
Ideological Bulwark 285, WALL delegate
Dastardly villain providing free services to the community sans remuneration

User avatar
Wallenburg
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20784
Founded: Jan 30, 2015
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Wallenburg » Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:37 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:Defines 'nation' as World Assembly member nations to clear up some annoying confusion;

This rider still doesn't sit well with me. If you're going to put it in, at least use it in this proposal.
THERE IS NO WAR IN BA SING SE
grestin went through the MKULTRA program and he has more of a free will than wallenburg does - Imperial Idaho
Minister of World Assembly Affairs for The East Pacific

User avatar
The Silver Sentinel
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1226
Founded: Jul 04, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby The Silver Sentinel » Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:55 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:This should be an interesting legality dispute. Of course it could be very easily circumvented simply by removing the clause entirely. There isn't anything in the rules which specifically says that individuals can't be impacted by resolutions directly, though I'm open to anyone throwing some precedent my way before any decision is made.

IA is the clause even necessary? Why do they need WA passports if they can't be made stateless to begin with?

"Nonmembers can still create stateless individuals, and states Balkanizing would have that effect."

So citizens in non-member states that have been made stateless by those non-members automatically have WA issued passports issued to them? If that is the intention, I would argue this is illegal as it is indirectly legislating upon non-members.

User avatar
Imperium Anglorum
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9705
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:32 am

Wallenburg wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Defines 'nation' as World Assembly member nations to clear up some annoying confusion;

This rider still doesn't sit well with me. If you're going to put it in, at least use it in this proposal.

I do use it.

The Silver Sentinel wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"Nonmembers can still create stateless individuals, and states Balkanizing would have that effect."

So citizens in non-member states that have been made stateless by those non-members automatically have WA issued passports issued to them? If that is the intention, I would argue this is illegal as it is indirectly legislating upon non-members.

For god's sakes man. Read.

Author: 1 SC and 36 GA resolutions
Maintainer: GA Passed Resolutions
Developer: Communiqué and InfoEurope
Toxic villainous globalist kittehs
Delegate for Europe
Elsie Mortimer Wellesley (EMW); OOC unless otherwise indicated
Ideological Bulwark 285, WALL delegate
Dastardly villain providing free services to the community sans remuneration

User avatar
The Silver Sentinel
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1226
Founded: Jul 04, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby The Silver Sentinel » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:00 am

I am still trying to figure out how this does not duplicate Refugee Protection.

For instance Refugee Protection defines a refugee as "A refugee shall be defined, for the purposes of this resolution, as any person who is for any reason outside the country of their nationality and cannot avail themselves of the protection of their country of nationality, or who refuses to do so because of a well-founded fear of unjust persecution. This shall not exclude persons also defined as refugees under different criteria by provisions of national or other international law.". Under this definition, any person who has been made stateless becomes a refugee and thus is automatically granted protection under Refugee Protection.

Further to that Refugee Protection states "2. Where a member nation has denied asylum to or expelled a refugee, the nation shall, as far as possible, seek to facilitate that person's transport to another nation which is willing to grant asylum, and must not obstruct that person's efforts to seek asylum in another nation." which would totally negate the any reason to issue a WA Passport, as nations are already required to make a good faith effort to either accommodate that refugee, or assist said refugee by transporting them to a nation which will accept them as a refugee.

As it stands this whole issue is a duplication illegality.

User avatar
Wrapper
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 5914
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Wrapper » Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:18 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"Member states are the only states resolutions can act upon. By the nature of the system, that is implied. Moreover, a phrase can be redefine with ease in another resolution, so it makes little difference to attempt to define it in perpetuity."

This legislates out the 'nations' -> metagaming.

Oh for crying out loud. Take it out. We have resolutions that legally act on member nations yet restrict what they do with non-member nations. This includes GAR#300 for example. By putting this in and decreeing that from now on nations = WA nations you are gutting such resolutions, decreeing child pornography can be exported to non-member nations in certain circumstances (age of consent in non-member nation lower than age of consent in member nation).

OOC: I mean, what the fuck? "Nations" has always been legal, it's "all nations" that isn't. You keep this in and I will file a GHR to get it removed because of your stated intent.
Last edited by Wrapper on Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to WA Archives

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

Advertisement

Remove ads