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A carefully preserved record of the most notable World Assembly debates.

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Tinfect
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5026
Founded: Jul 04, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tinfect » Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:31 pm

Bears Armed wrote:OOC; Do they actually have 'citizens', designated as such, rather than just 'nationals' or 'subjects'?


OOC:
If they've got a legal system any more developed than "I Said So, and I have a Gun", almost certainly.
As for existing, Real-Life dictatorships, even North Korea has Citizenship laws.
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Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 15315
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:31 pm

Tinfect wrote:
Bears Armed wrote:OOC; Do they actually have 'citizens', designated as such, rather than just 'nationals' or 'subjects'?


OOC:
If they've got a legal system any more developed than "I Said So, and I have a Gun", almost certainly.
As for existing, Real-Life dictatorships, even North Korea has Citizenship laws.


OOC: And, certainly, even if a population effectively has no rights, it would be a very foolish state indeed that lets their population realize that they have no rights. The illusion of rights would be a critical aspect of a government's survival if it was so totalitarian that citizenship carried no meaning.

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Tinfect
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Founded: Jul 04, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tinfect » Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:42 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Tinfect wrote:
OOC:
If they've got a legal system any more developed than "I Said So, and I have a Gun", almost certainly.
As for existing, Real-Life dictatorships, even North Korea has Citizenship laws.


OOC: And, certainly, even if a population effectively has no rights, it would be a very foolish state indeed that lets their population realize that they have no rights. The illusion of rights would be a critical aspect of a government's survival if it was so totalitarian that citizenship carried no meaning.


OOC:
Well, of course, but that's something of a digression, isn't it?
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Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 15315
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:43 pm

Tinfect wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:
OOC: And, certainly, even if a population effectively has no rights, it would be a very foolish state indeed that lets their population realize that they have no rights. The illusion of rights would be a critical aspect of a government's survival if it was so totalitarian that citizenship carried no meaning.


OOC:
Well, of course, but that's something of a digression, isn't it?

OOC: It still interesting.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:05 pm

Bump.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:35 pm

I'm prepared to submit tomorrow.

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Dooom35796821595
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Founded: Sep 11, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Dooom35796821595 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:22 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:

Aware that people have been deprived of their citizenship by unscrupulous states to prevent them from exercising their societally guaranteed political rights,

Believing that this unjustly prevents people from exercising those rights to which they are rightfully entailed, and

This august World Assembly hereby:

[list=1][*]Prohibits nations from depriving a national of their nationality should such an action leave that national stateless; mandates that no national will be deprived of their nationality without the due process of law;


OOC: I don't know why stacking resolutions in spoilers under the current draft became popular, makes it very lengthy to manually delete all the excess info.

IC: Where to start. First, you don't seem to approve of removal of political rights, but isn't that exactly what happenes when an individual is sent to prison?
Second, why should exile be so unacceptable in societies that would otherwise either have to expend valued resources in incarcerating an individual, or have the individual executed?
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States of Glory WA Office
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1921
Founded: Jul 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby States of Glory WA Office » Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:28 pm

Dooom35796821595 wrote:OOC: I don't know why stacking resolutions in spoilers under the current draft became popular, makes it very lengthy to manually delete all the excess info.

OOC: For some people, studying the evolution of a particular proposal/resolution is interesting.

Dooom35796821595 wrote:Where to start. First, you don't seem to approve of removal of political rights, but isn't that exactly what happenes when an individual is sent to prison?

Neville: Ambassador, you're confusing citizenship with nationality. Nationality doesn't by itself confer political rights.

Dooom35796821595 wrote:Second, why should exile be so unacceptable in societies that would otherwise either have to expend valued resources in incarcerating an individual, or have the individual executed?

Fairburn: I'm sure that the enforcement of exile expends no resources whatsoever.
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Tinfect
Negotiator
 
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Founded: Jul 04, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tinfect » Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:34 pm

States of Glory WA Office wrote:
Dooom35796821595 wrote:OOC: I don't know why stacking resolutions in spoilers under the current draft became popular, makes it very lengthy to manually delete all the excess info.

OOC: For some people, studying the evolution of a particular proposal/resolution is interesting.


OOC:
I think he's more trying to say that it'd be better to stack them up in a second post right beneath the Draft, just to keep down on clutter when trying to quote posts. It's quite understandable, really.
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States of Glory WA Office
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1921
Founded: Jul 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby States of Glory WA Office » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:27 pm

Tinfect wrote:
States of Glory WA Office wrote:OOC: For some people, studying the evolution of a particular proposal/resolution is interesting.


OOC:
I think he's more trying to say that it'd be better to stack them up in a second post right beneath the Draft, just to keep down on clutter when trying to quote posts. It's quite understandable, really.

OOC: Oh, right. Fair enough.
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Imperium Anglorum
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Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:55 pm

Tinfect wrote:
States of Glory WA Office wrote:OOC: For some people, studying the evolution of a particular proposal/resolution is interesting.

OOC: I think he's more trying to say that it'd be better to stack them up in a second post right beneath the Draft, just to keep down on clutter when trying to quote posts. It's quite understandable, really.

This was an old draft from a long time ago. I now do that. But this was the old days.

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Dooom35796821595
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Founded: Sep 11, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Dooom35796821595 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:20 pm

States of Glory WA Office wrote:Neville: Ambassador, you're confusing citizenship with nationality. Nationality doesn't by itself confer political rights.


OOC: In the UK there are 6 different types of nationality, the highest being a British citizen. So the distinctions between citizen and national are both intertwined and extremly complex, and vary from nation to nation.

IC: Perhaps not in your nation, Ambassador, but since there is no universal definition for either term we shouldn't make resolutions based on a narrow interpretation of law or language that could adversely affect other nations. This is further muddied by your mention of citizenship in your opening statement, then deciding to outlaw states removing nationality.
Also, since the resolution is titled reducing statelessness, not outlawing statelessness perhaps you should consider less absolute language.[/quote]

States of Glory WA Office wrote:Fairburn: I'm sure that the enforcement of exile expends no resources whatsoever.


None that wouldn't already be dedicated to border control, Ambassador.
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Leppikania
Minister
 
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Founded: Apr 13, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Leppikania » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:11 am

This is now at vote.

OOC: You should have referred to it as the GESTAPO instead of the Passport Organization.
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Imperium Anglorum
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Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:19 am

Yea, that isn't happening.

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Frustrated Franciscans
Chargé d'Affaires
 
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Founded: Aug 01, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Frustrated Franciscans » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:39 am

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I READ RESOLUTIONS
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We have given this the consideration that it deserved (well isn't that nice ... it's a good point ... definitely an international issue) and we have voted AYE.
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PRUSCIA
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Jul 29, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby PRUSCIA » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:24 am

We start from the principle that the transit of persons must be guaranteed by all governments whatever it is the regime of the moment, the best way to establish diplomatic relations are people coming and going without problem. All security policy should be tetalhada in their reasons and rights, that is the ture to accept the laws of the region in numerous situations.

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Tinhampton
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7205
Founded: Oct 05, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Tinhampton » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:30 am

Delegate-Ambassador Smith is voting FOR this proposal. The various common-sense factors listed in this proposal far outweigh the missed opportunity to refer to the Global Emigration, etc. Organisation as the GESTAPO, and the seemingly poor-language phrase "..., and this August World Assembly hereby: [factors]".
Last edited by Tinhampton on Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Sky Pineapple
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 8
Founded: Aug 01, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby The Sky Pineapple » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:43 am

"Believing that this unjustly prevents people from exercising those rights to which they are rightfully entailed, and"
And what? The delegation of the Sky Pineapple will not support a resolution that cannot even finish its own sentences.

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Wallenburg
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
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Founded: Jan 30, 2015
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Wallenburg » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:45 am

"The Wallenburgian delegation is divided on this. We certainly agree that an individual's nationality is his natural, inalienable right, but we disagree that it is actually possible to revoke someone's nationality. A state may deprive them of citizenship, but nationality is something that is irrevocably attached to you, forever, based upon where you were born and to whom you were born.

"Furthermore the preamble decries the action of stripping individuals of their citizenship, but never actually does anything to restrict or prohibit this. It seems to me that the author does not know what he is actually trying to do, or is conflating the terms 'citizenship' and 'nationality'."
Last edited by Wallenburg on Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Imperium Anglorum
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9705
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:41 pm

Wallenburg wrote:"The Wallenburgian delegation is divided on this. We certainly agree that an individual's nationality is his natural, inalienable right, but we disagree that it is actually possible to revoke someone's nationality. A state may deprive them of citizenship, but nationality is something that is irrevocably attached to you, forever, based upon where you were born and to whom you were born.

PARSONS: Nationality is a legal status. One can revoke it with a the stroke of a pen.

Wallenburg wrote:"Furthermore the preamble decries the action of stripping individuals of their citizenship, but never actually does anything to restrict or prohibit this. It seems to me that the author does not know what he is actually trying to do, or is conflating the terms 'citizenship' and 'nationality'."

PARSONS: Huh. Looks like we didn't find-replace that one. I can admit that some typos got through, even though we had my office and some other offices look at it (OOC: I did pass it around for a last review.).
Last edited by Imperium Anglorum on Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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States of Glory WA Office
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1921
Founded: Jul 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby States of Glory WA Office » Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:49 pm

Dooom35796821595 wrote:
States of Glory WA Office wrote:Neville: Ambassador, you're confusing citizenship with nationality. Nationality doesn't by itself confer political rights.


OOC: In the UK there are 6 different types of nationality, the highest being a British citizen. So the distinctions between citizen and national are both intertwined and extremly complex, and vary from nation to nation.

OOC: That's what happens with former empires. I'm not sure if British nationals who aren't British citizens have any political rights. Being a bog-standard British citizen, I honestly don't know.

Dooom35796821595 wrote:Perhaps not in your nation, Ambassador, but since there is no universal definition for either term we shouldn't make resolutions based on a narrow interpretation of law or language that could adversely affect other nations.

Neville: What you're saying, then, is that Ambassador Southwoods' objection is invalid?

Dooom35796821595 wrote:
States of Glory WA Office wrote:Fairburn: I'm sure that the enforcement of exile expends no resources whatsoever.

None that wouldn't already be dedicated to border control, Ambassador.

Fairburn: Ah, so extra bureaucracy is completely free in your country? When can I move?

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:"Furthermore the preamble decries the action of stripping individuals of their citizenship, but never actually does anything to restrict or prohibit this. It seems to me that the author does not know what he is actually trying to do, or is conflating the terms 'citizenship' and 'nationality'."

PARSONS: Huh. Looks like we didn't find-replace that one. I can admit that some typos got through, even though we had my office and some other offices look at it (OOC: I did pass it around for a last review.).

OOC: Yeah, that slipped by us. Is it too late to file a GHR?
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Colony of lasting Hopes
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 2
Founded: Sep 28, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Colony of lasting Hopes » Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:06 pm

I don't understand this issue could someone help me out in explaining it.

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G0P
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 5
Founded: Oct 20, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby G0P » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:10 pm

I believe that ones citizenship can be revoked in cases of many criminal activities, such as; harm against individuals, illegal entry, and treason. I find these cases to be clear and agreed upon by everyone who believes in order and justice in our nations.

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TinyTNT463
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Mar 12, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby TinyTNT463 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:16 pm

G0P wrote:I believe that ones citizenship can be revoked in cases of many criminal activities, such as; harm against individuals, illegal entry, and treason. I find these cases to be clear and agreed upon by everyone who believes in order and justice in our nations.

:clap: Yes, this is perfectly true. Why should we take the judge and jury out of the courtroom? It would be preposterous :eyebrow: to vote in agreement to this bill. :evil:

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HighHaar
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 17
Founded: Sep 13, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby HighHaar » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:16 am

The Sky Pineapple wrote:"Believing that this unjustly prevents people from exercising those rights to which they are rightfully entailed, and"
And what? The delegation of the Sky Pineapple will not support a resolution that cannot even finish its own sentences.


We, the People of HighHaar, are surprised as well that such an evident error, which came to be by eliminating the next sentence from a previous draft, could slip unnoticed.

However, this error aside, We are also concerned about the value of this proposal as a whole. While it is commendable to defend the right of every person to have a Nationality as in the first point of the proposal, the other 3 points do not achieve any goal in protecting that right.

Documents provided by the World Assembly and its organs would do nothing to reintegrate Nationality for any nationless person, unless said document forced a Nationality on him/her (maybe the one that was illegally stripped away?), which is not stated here at any point. The World Assembly itself is not a Nation, so it would be impossible for it to give a Nationality on its own, because it has no mean (and no legislation) to do so. Furthermore, what about nationless people coming from Nations outside the World Assembly? Their nationless status would entitle them to the same rights as other nationless people, but the World Assembly would not be able to enforce their previous Nation to restore their Nationality, even if this was part of this proposal, nor could it issue a Nationality of its own or a Nationality from another Nation participating in this august body, unless an agreement and a list of Nations willing to make their Nationality avaiable can be found.

We, as a young Nation, are not going to discuss on the matter of pertinence/duplication as it would be beyond Our capabilities.

All considered, We as a Nation strongly REJECT this proposal on the basis of the concerns and open issues We discussed above.

President TalKronjn Of HighHaar

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