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[PASSED] Reducing Statelessness

A carefully preserved record of the most notable World Assembly debates.

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United Irish Counties
Secretary
 
Posts: 30
Founded: Aug 25, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby United Irish Counties » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:23 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:Yea, that isn't happening.

OOC: I appreciate that. I still think this committee needs to be removed never to be spoken of again for OOC reasons, so I'm voting no on this one, Sorry.
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Gremlinsburg
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Founded: Sep 14, 2016
New York Times Democracy

Postby Gremlinsburg » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:57 am

The first point of this resolution is entirely useless. "Due Process" is different everywhere and it will make no difference in who is exiled and who isn't. At most, all it'll do is increase bureaucracy. The second point of the resolution increases power to the GESTAPO and takes it out of the hands of nations. This also opens yet another door for corruption where the GESTAPO can assign passports that could state a person is from any nation in the WA. What's the point in even having passports to identify a person's nationality if some intergovernmental organization can just say "Oh yes, this person is assuredly from Maxtopia." when the individual could instead be from Brazilistan, and have it all be entirely legal? This is foolish and Gremlinsburg wants no part of it!

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Imperium Anglorum
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Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:28 am

A few points:

  1. I don't think people understand what the Passport Organisation is being told to do. They are not being told to give passports to everyone. They are not being told to give nationality documents to anyone. They are being told to "include the issuance of World Assembly identification documents and passports to the former nationals of member states who have been deprived of their nationality by their government". There is a very limited form of action here, which includes only travel and identification documents, that is also quite limited in scope.

  2. Nationality is a legal status. One's nationality can be taken away at the stroke of a pen. For example, there exist US Nationals, British Nationals, and others. These are statuses which provide protections and responsibilities which the issuing state has promised. Revocation of them prevents people from leaving any country and means they are unable to enjoy the protections of any nation. Many times, they lack access to education, health care, and property. Stateless persons are also widely exploited and abused because they cannot avail themselves to the redress of any legal system because they lack standing in court.

  3. The ability or inability to revoke nationality does not trade off with judicial punishment. Just as Britain still has prisons does not mean that all of their inhabitants are no longer British nationals. Similarly, the United States can lock people up without also depriving them of their status as a US National.
There certainly are two typos at the top. They were noted, unfortunately, after the last review of this proposal (before submission) by three different people. Fortunately, those typos do not interfere in any way with the operative clauses 1-4.

There was also an interesting argument in the North Pacific forum:

The laws of some countries, who may not be World Assembly members, may require a person to renounce their citizenship with their current country before pursuing citizenship with another. The clause in the resolution, "Prohibits nations from depriving a national of their nationality should such an action leave that national stateless," could be interpreted to mean that a state could not accept a person's renunciation, as it would leave the person stateless during the change in citizenship, which may not be guaranteed by the new nation.

When a person renounces their citizenship, the state is not depriving anyone of their nationality. The state must both take action and that action must also be to deprive. If one renounces their nationality, the state is a passive actor which is not doing anything.
Last edited by Imperium Anglorum on Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Frances Francis the First of France
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Founded: Dec 23, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Frances Francis the First of France » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:28 am

I don't see how to get around that the description and the rest of the bill have nothing to do with each other.

The description states this is to stop states from stripping people of their citizenship. But Nationality has NOTHING to do with Citizenship in many cases. And often Nationals are basically second-class citizens who have general a lesser amount of rights, have lower legal standing, and are often basically stateless people who are trapped within the border of their home country.

Anglorum points out US nationals but that is a very bleak example to bring up. US Nationals are the people of Samoa. Who are A.) Not Citizens. B.) Must get VISAs to even travel to other parts of the US. C.) Can be deported like foreigners. D.) Are legally barred from many jobs in the US. E.) Have a lower legal standing in US Courts. F.) Can't even vote unless they go through immigration as if they were from an entirely separate sovereign state.

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Bears Armed
GA Secretariat
 
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Founded: Jun 01, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Bears Armed » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:54 am

Gremlinsburg wrote:This also opens yet another door for corruption where the GESTAPO can assign passports that could state a person is from any nation in the WA.

OOC: It's an established convention that GA committees are inevitably staffed with honest [& efficient] personnel -- commonly known colloquially in this forum as "WA Gnomes" -- so that proposal authors don't have to use large proportions of the limited number of characters available for the text (no more than 3'500, including punctuation, spaces, and line-breaks) explaining how they will be kept honest [& efficient]. There have actually been submitted 'Repeal' proposals that the Secretariat (the Moderators) declared illegal for implying to the contrary...
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MuhFreedomville
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Posts: 5
Founded: Oct 20, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby MuhFreedomville » Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:40 am

The individuals of MuhFreedomville in divided individuality unanimously vote against this resolution. Our rights are secured by our country and our sovereignty will not be infringed upon by international powers. If countries deny rights to their own citizens, it is up to those people within their countries to solve their own problems. Voluntary associations with GESTAPO are the only interactions that are legitimate and forcing nations' compliance is entirely immoral.
Last edited by MuhFreedomville on Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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LollerLand
Diplomat
 
Posts: 510
Founded: May 15, 2014
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby LollerLand » Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:49 am

After discussing with our community The Universal Allegiance has decided to vote FOR this proposal

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Imperium Anglorum
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Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:58 am

MuhFreedomville wrote:The individuals of MuhFreedomville in divided individuality unanimously vote against this resolution. Our rights are secured by our country and our sovereignty will not be infringed upon by international powers. If countries deny rights to their own citizens, it is up to those people within their countries to solve their own problems. Voluntary associations with GESTAPO are the only interactions that are legitimate and forcing nations' compliance is entirely immoral.

PARSONS: Then resign from the WA. All actions taken by the WA are legitimate because you have consented into the World Assembly structure. What you're doing is like joining a sports club and then complaining that you have to abide by club regulations and pay dues.

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MuhFreedomville
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Posts: 5
Founded: Oct 20, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby MuhFreedomville » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:30 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
MuhFreedomville wrote:The individuals of MuhFreedomville in divided individuality unanimously vote against this resolution. Our rights are secured by our country and our sovereignty will not be infringed upon by international powers. If countries deny rights to their own citizens, it is up to those people within their countries to solve their own problems. Voluntary associations with GESTAPO are the only interactions that are legitimate and forcing nations' compliance is entirely immoral.

PARSONS: Then resign from the WA. All actions taken by the WA are legitimate because you have consented into the World Assembly structure. What you're doing is like joining a sports club and then complaining that you have to abide by club regulations and pay dues.


The individuals of MuhFreedomville joined the WA voluntarily and of course we can voluntarily depart as well. But this is more like joining a sports club and then the sports club telling you how to run your life. I'd like to be in this sports club but I'd rather not have them tell me how to run my private affairs. Similarly, the proposed legislation goes beyond what the individuals of MuhFreedomville feel the scope and purpose of the WA should be.

Your response to our grievances for this policy was similar to "If you don't like it you can get out" which is rather irrational. The purpose of proposing a policy that will be voted on is to see if members agree with the policy; telling members either you accept the policy or leave is not how voting works.
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Wealthatonia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 199
Founded: Sep 19, 2016
Capitalizt

Postby Wealthatonia » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:50 am

My nation finds this resolution wrong. it should be every government's right to be able to take away a citizen's citizenship should they move and not come back for a certain amount of time.
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Northeast North Korea
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Posts: 3
Founded: Sep 28, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Northeast North Korea » Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:18 pm

The great nation of Northeast North Korea strongly condemns this resolution! If the traitors in our country can't follow our laws, they should be banished and left to suffer in the ocean!

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Imperium Anglorum
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Founded: Aug 26, 2013
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:27 pm

So it seems that the nations which don't respect human rights are clamouring against this resolution which forces people to respect, in some fashion, human rights. I can't really say I am convinced.

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Mediobogdum
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Founded: Jun 04, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

GESTAPO

Postby Mediobogdum » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:57 pm

However has this GA Proposal got this far? Surely with:

"Expands the remit of the Global Emigration, Security, Travel And Passport Organisation, hereafter referred as the Passport Organisation, to include the issuance of World Assembly identification documents and passports to the former nationals of member states who have been deprived of their nationality by their government;"

this should have failed to get to a vote at any stage?
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Wealthatonia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 199
Founded: Sep 19, 2016
Capitalizt

Postby Wealthatonia » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:00 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:So it seems that the nations which don't respect human rights are clamouring against this resolution which forces people to respect, in some fashion, human rights. I can't really say I am convinced.


what does this have to do with human rights? they can be free to join another nation.
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MuhFreedomville
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Posts: 5
Founded: Oct 20, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby MuhFreedomville » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:39 pm

Wealthatonia wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:So it seems that the nations which don't respect human rights are clamouring against this resolution which forces people to respect, in some fashion, human rights. I can't really say I am convinced.


what does this have to do with human rights? they can be free to join another nation.


Exactly, anyone who is disallowed citizenship in their country is free to come to MuhFreedomville, where we accept anyone and everyone.
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States of Glory WA Office
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1921
Founded: Jul 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby States of Glory WA Office » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:25 pm

Mediobogdum wrote:However has this GA Proposal got this far? Surely with:

"Expands the remit of the Global Emigration, Security, Travel And Passport Organisation, hereafter referred as the Passport Organisation, to include the issuance of World Assembly identification documents and passports to the former nationals of member states who have been deprived of their nationality by their government;"

this should have failed to get to a vote at any stage?

OOC: Don't blame the author. He wasn't the one who created the committee.
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Silky Smooth
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Founded: Sep 27, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Silky Smooth » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:37 pm

Thank You for bringing this forth.

The Borderlands of Silky Smooth will appreciate other Nations acknowledging that this Nation is capable of establishing and executing its own laws, without other Nations needing to propose different. Our Nation will do the same.

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Wallenburg
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
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Founded: Jan 30, 2015
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Wallenburg » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:45 pm

Mediobogdum wrote:However has this GA Proposal got this far? Surely with:

"Expands the remit of the Global Emigration, Security, Travel And Passport Organisation, hereafter referred as the Passport Organisation, to include the issuance of World Assembly identification documents and passports to the former nationals of member states who have been deprived of their nationality by their government;"

this should have failed to get to a vote at any stage?

The GESTAPO was created by another resolution. This resolution simply uses it because it is the appropriate committee for the job.
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G0P
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Founded: Oct 20, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby G0P » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:42 pm

MuhFreedomville wrote:
Wealthatonia wrote:
what does this have to do with human rights? they can be free to join another nation.


Exactly, anyone who is disallowed citizenship in their country is free to come to MuhFreedomville, where we accept anyone and everyone.

Including those who break the law and commit treason? I'm sure everyone will feel safe living in your country.

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Wealthatonia
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Posts: 199
Founded: Sep 19, 2016
Capitalizt

Postby Wealthatonia » Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:51 pm

G0P wrote:
MuhFreedomville wrote:
Exactly, anyone who is disallowed citizenship in their country is free to come to MuhFreedomville, where we accept anyone and everyone.

Including those who break the law and commit treason? I'm sure everyone will feel safe living in your country.


if Wealthatonia's citizens don't feel safe because they are protected by the Private Police Force Incorporated of Wealhatonia, then that is their problem.
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"Fine dining, grand buffets, and money used as napkins as far as the eye can see.

Gold-topped everything for Wealthatonia" what New Scaiva and Horshenwurst thinks the average meal is like in our nation

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Sandaoguo
Envoy
 
Posts: 219
Founded: Apr 07, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Sandaoguo » Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:23 am

This is an otherwise great resolution. Unfortunately, the use of "GESTAPO" is unacceptably offensive, and I cannot in good conscience support the extension of its offensiveness into more resolutions.

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Wealthatonia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 199
Founded: Sep 19, 2016
Capitalizt

Postby Wealthatonia » Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:12 am

Sandaoguo wrote:This is an otherwise great resolution. Unfortunately, the use of "GESTAPO" is unacceptably offensive, and I cannot in good conscience support the extension of its offensiveness into more resolutions.


there is nothing good about this resolution, Why should a citizen who has not lived or worked in their original country for years be regarded as that nation's citizen? they're not contributing to the economy of that nation at all.
Wealthatonian Ambassador JP Rockefeller

"Fine dining, grand buffets, and money used as napkins as far as the eye can see.

Gold-topped everything for Wealthatonia" what New Scaiva and Horshenwurst thinks the average meal is like in our nation

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(-_Q) If you support Capitalism put this in your Signature!

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Sandaoguo
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Posts: 219
Founded: Apr 07, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Sandaoguo » Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:50 am

Wealthatonia wrote:
Sandaoguo wrote:This is an otherwise great resolution. Unfortunately, the use of "GESTAPO" is unacceptably offensive, and I cannot in good conscience support the extension of its offensiveness into more resolutions.


there is nothing good about this resolution, Why should a citizen who has not lived or worked in their original country for years be regarded as that nation's citizen? they're not contributing to the economy of that nation at all.

Sometimes, countries need to accept a cost of doing business. People shouldn't be stateless, if we insist on states being the fundamental organizing block of international order. Anyways, nationality and citizenship are not equivalent.

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Wallenburg
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Founded: Jan 30, 2015
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Wallenburg » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:02 pm

Sandaoguo wrote:This is an otherwise great resolution. Unfortunately, the use of "GESTAPO" is unacceptably offensive, and I cannot in good conscience support the extension of its offensiveness into more resolutions.

Wallenburg wrote:The GESTAPO was created by another resolution. This resolution simply uses it because it is the appropriate committee for the job.


Wealthatonia wrote:there is nothing good about this resolution, Why should a citizen who has not lived or worked in their original country for years be regarded as that nation's citizen? they're not contributing to the economy of that nation at all.

Perhaps they should be considered a citizen because they are one? :eyebrow:
THERE IS NO WAR IN BA SING SE
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G0P
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 5
Founded: Oct 20, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby G0P » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:14 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Sandaoguo wrote:This is an otherwise great resolution. Unfortunately, the use of "GESTAPO" is unacceptably offensive, and I cannot in good conscience support the extension of its offensiveness into more resolutions.

Wallenburg wrote:The GESTAPO was created by another resolution. This resolution simply uses it because it is the appropriate committee for the job.


Wealthatonia wrote:there is nothing good about this resolution, Why should a citizen who has not lived or worked in their original country for years be regarded as that nation's citizen? they're not contributing to the economy of that nation at all.

Perhaps they should be considered a citizen because they are one? :eyebrow:

Citizenship should not be just anyone's right, but a privilege for individuals who obey the law and serve the nation.

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