[DEFEATED] Liberate The Black Riders

[Raionitu]

well, apparently you do if you are so for liberation

[The Silver Sentinel]

well, apparently you do if you are so for liberation

No. I am trying to stop others from ruining peoples fun. Perhaps you should actually read the resolution and the comments before you continue?

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

well, apparently you do if you are so for liberation

No. I am trying to stop others from ruining peoples fun. Perhaps you should actually read the resolution and the comments before you continue?

I go back to - and how does liberating TBR advance the cause of ending raiding? Is it going to make a dozen defenders spring out of thin air, or is it going to make us all quit overnight?

[Raionitu]

well, apparently you do if you are so for liberation

No. I am trying to stop others from ruining peoples fun. Perhaps you should actually read the resolution and the comments before you continue?

I did. If you read my previous comment about the path to dictatorship for the WA, you would get what I'm talking about. Raiders might ruin it for a single region for a short time, but Liberating every region raiders go to ruins the game for EVERY raider forever. That's more than the dozen people of a raided region.

[Chostea]

No. I am trying to stop others from ruining peoples fun. Perhaps you should actually read the resolution and the comments before you continue?

I did. If you read my previous comment about the path to dictatorship for the WA, you would get what I'm talking about. Raiders might ruin it for a single region for a short time, but Liberating every region raiders go to ruins the game for EVERY raider forever. That's more than the dozen people of a raided region.

I'm sorry... Do you actually know what you're talking about?

[Raionitu]

After several replies of some sort version of "you don't know what your talking about" I'm just gonna leave this discussion, because apparently none of you get what what I'M trying to get across.

[The Silver Sentinel]

No. I am trying to stop others from ruining peoples fun. Perhaps you should actually read the resolution and the comments before you continue?

I did. If you read my previous comment about the path to dictatorship for the WA, you would get what I'm talking about. Raiders might ruin it for a single region for a short time, but Liberating every region raiders go to ruins the game for EVERY raider forever. That's more than the dozen people of a raided region.

So it ruins the game for raiders? Hmmm.. I never thought of that. Tough shit.

After several replies of some sort version of "you don't know what your talking about" I'm just gonna leave this discussion, because apparently none of you get what what I'M trying to get across.

I'm not quite sure you do either, but I will translate it for you okay? "If we liberate regions, then it ruins the game for raiders as they can't greif the region and destroyall the hard work of others." Sound about right?

[Chostea]

Their argument doesn't even make sense. Liberating a region doesn't ruin the game for raiders at all. It takes days for a liberation to pass; never mind all the work that has to go into making the proposal, and it takes far longer than the time raiders should ever be in a region. Raiders shouldn't even be allowed to place passwords on a region.

And as for liberating regions that they own, "ruining the game for them"... You're not actually serious? You can't possibly be serious in saying that "letting raiders get raided ruins the game for raiders!". I swear, Raionitu, there's a reason people say you have no idea what you're talking about: because you don't.

[Rellacrystal]

My question is, does anyone know exactly how many times there's been a "Liberate TBR" Proposal? One, two, three+ times?

If someone could find me as many proposals on this as possible, then that would be great.

Also, why is it so urgent to liberate TBR? There's bound to be something behind it.

[The Silver Sentinel]

Also, why is it so urgent to liberate TBR? There's bound to be something behind it.

Yeah, they're about to refound it, and we want to prevent that. No conspiracy.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

My question is, does anyone know exactly how many times there's been a "Liberate TBR" Proposal? One, two, three+ times?

If someone could find me as many proposals on this as possible, then that would be great.

Also, why is it so urgent to liberate TBR? There's bound to be something behind it.

Answer: Too many

Answer Two: depends on if you count from before it was founderless xD

It really isn't. Even at best, I'll be here a few more weeks.

Also, why is it so urgent to liberate TBR? There's bound to be something behind it.

Yeah, they're about to refound it, and we want to prevent that. No conspiracy.

Except, you know, you've admitted that this really just makes life more difficult, and doesn't actually make a refound impossible. Solving a puzzle alone(or close to it) in a room is generally eaiser than solving it in the middle of a football field during a match, but the latter is not impossible.

[The Silver Sentinel]

Yeah, they're about to refound it, and we want to prevent that. No conspiracy.

Except, you know, you've admitted that this really just makes life more difficult, and doesn't actually make a refound impossible. Solving a puzzle alone(or close to it) in a room is generally eaiser than solving it in the middle of a football field during a match, but the latter is not impossible.

I suppose that's true. One just has to look at The Mountains to The East now don't they?

[Harenhime]

Mountains to the East failed because of an update error, likely caused by some sort of illegal tool being used by Bob. making an empty region fail to register as empty and cease to exist.

That said, I never said it was guaranteed - nor is success guaranteed with a password.

---

on another note....

I find it amusing that this body, time and time again, wastes its days at vote and resources on this needless proposition to repeal a victimless password. As we speak, regions such as Nova Historiae with active natives being actively oppressed sit in danger of an impending password, and are ignored, both failing to see an update liberation attempt to date, and to see any fraction of the number of pre-preemptive liberation this mere trophy has been subject to - that is, to have not been mentioned within this council at all. Can you really say you're helping anyone here, rather than just wasting time on a nuisance driven by personal vendetta? We could be arguing over an effort to ensure that community will never suffer the current likelihood of a lockdown followed by expulsion, instead of sitting here picking old bones.

[Knot]

I suppose that's true. One just has to look at The Mountains to The East now don't they?

Glad to know defenders are depending on a liberation badge and a server glitch.

[Perribulous]

The Security Council,

Recognizing that certain activities within the world can be detrimental to the international community as a whole and should be perceived with antipathy,

Acknowledging the typical use of liberation proposals, which usually are implemented to free a native community from an unwarranted password imposed by a Delegate with aspirations of tyrannical oppression and obliteration of said community,

Firmly believing that while the international community has long held that liberation proposals should only be used to free besieged communities, also believing that when used under certain extraordinary circumstances as a weapon the benefits far outweigh the consequences,

Imploring the international community to band together and take the steps necessary in hindering extremely violent and destructive ideologies such as raiding undertaken by organizations such as The Black Riders and DEN,

Frightened that such a stronghold dedicated to abhorrence and destruction could, can and has corrupted entire communities to follow the atrocious examples set by The Black Riders and their successor organization DEN,

Observing no existence of a substantial regional community within The Black Riders, as most if not all abandoned the region when it was initially conquered by a multiregional taskforce led by United German Regions, thus abandoning any claims that regional community may have once had to The Black Riders,

Asking the members of the international community to recall and always remember the atrocious acts undertaken by The Black Riders in once flourishing native communities such as Hippiedom, The Silver Isles, Planet X, and The Mountains to The East which they so casually destroyed as a matter of course,

Dedicated to the belief that The Black Riders should not be refounded as a trophy or a shrine to the despicable ideology of destructive raiding,

Mercifully believing that should The Black Riders and their successor organization DEN return the regions that they currently hold as trophies to their rightful native owners, that the Security Council should reexamine this resolution as to allow The Black Riders to finally rest in peace,

Hereby liberates The Black Riders.

This can't be real. We must not let this pass.

[Guy]

More importantly though, Liberate Nazi Europe was repealed, and that repeal included the line that all regions have the right for self-determination, including the imposition of a password.

That particular resolution was written by SkyDip, who was staunchly pro-raider.

So what? Precedent passed by the entire SC is no longer valuable, depending on who wrote it? That's ludicrous. If I write a resolution saying that TEP is the best GCR, that'll be it, even though I obviously believe it's not…

Even if there is some precedent on the books that holds that you can do-away with a native-imposed password, surely we can do away with bad precedent.

And even if that precedent is still good, the fact that certain regions aren't worthy of self-determination, doesn't mean that none are. The vast majority certainly is.

It sounds like you believe only certain regions are worthy of self-determination. That's selectively imposing your ideology, which renders it useless. Either impose your ideology consistently, or don't bother applying it at all.

Not all systems of ethical belief are deontologist, with clear yes/no rules that are applied consistently. (Those usually have a line of exceptions, like "Killing is wrong, BUT"… etc.)

I do not believe that regions inherently have the right to self-defence. My 'beliefs' in R/D are really an end, towards which almost anything I do in R/D is towards: The minimisation of harm done to native communities by the invasion game. (While on its face, doing something like invading TBR might seem conducive to this goal, in fact it is highly repugnant to it, and hence I am against it.)

There are other ends that I support. For example, minimising as far as possible the voice of OOC fascists in this game (or anyone who could be interpreted as being OOC fascists). Again, while invading Nazis seems to be conducive to this goal, I have concluded that it only provides them with more attention.

[Consular]

The SC Liberation is supposed to serve as a shield, not a weapon.

A shield can still be used to bludgeon your opponent in the face.

The SC already is a weapon. I don't think there's anything particularly reprehensible about that.

The general argument appears to be that it is consistent for defenders to apply regional sovereignty based arguments to justify their defending, but not extend those arguments to /all/ regions, specifically invading regions. I am personally not seeing any hypocrisy here... If you violate the rights of others, perhaps you forfeit your own?

I'm not a moralist and don't care for regional sovereignty -- I think strength defines who has a right to what. But just throwing that out there.

[The Shadow Guardian]

I am personally not seeing any hypocrisy here... If you violate the rights of others, perhaps you forfeit your own?

That's the general idea this liberation is trying to convey. I am pleased that there are still some people who understand.

[Consular]

It's a very TITO-esque argument I think.

I think BT was supportive of the very same logic when his people mauled that region a while back... Madrigal?

[The Shadow Guardian]

Glad to know defenders are depending on a liberation badge and a server glitch.

I suppose it is better than depending on illegal tools that get founders deleted and make things like this possible, but I digress.

[We Are Not The ATF]

Glad to know defenders are depending on a liberation badge and a server glitch.

I suppose it is better than depending on illegal tools that get founders deleted and make things like this possible, but I digress.

You can't depend on something you don't know about. Besides DEN's been getting along fine without scripts.

[The United Peoples of Germany]

Looking through this, 99% of the discussion breaks down into petty arguments between both sides. What started out as reasonable was changed into the slightly unreasonable by the writer and was further transformed and perverted the farther along it went. If there really aren't more pressing matters for the SC then by all means squabble over this 'til your heart's content but as several others have pointed out that is not the case. How about the council does something about that then having to repeatedly vote and discuss this one thing.

[Valrifell]

I really don't understand how you can claim to not be a Moralist and then proceed to declare that TBR deserves to be raided based on the fact they violated the sovereignty of other regions. How are you not applying morals in this case?

[Benevolent Thomas]

It's a very TITO-esque argument I think.

I think BT was supportive of the very same logic when his people mauled that region a while back... Madrigal?

Oh we mauled it now? I hope all of my exploits grow exponentially in their magnitude over time. The Legend of Malevolent Thomas... I can see it now.

[Ayvari]

It's a very TITO-esque argument I think.

I think BT was supportive of the very same logic when his people mauled that region a while back... Madrigal?

Oh we mauled it now? I hope all of my exploits grow exponentially in their magnitude over time. The Legend of Malevolent Thomas... I can see it now.

It was a dark night, and the moon was full. Under the cover of night, The Grey Wardens viciously invaded the peaceful founderless community of Madrigal. Madrigal had definitely never been a raider organization at one point, they were simply a harmless RP region, which made this absolutely inexcusable. The lack of justification was positively horrific. Ideological chaos ensued.

Malevolent Thomas, true to his adjective, just laughed and laughed as he tormented the lost souls of Madrigal. Evil laughter, because he was all malevolent and stuff.

Eventually the raiders reclaimed their own, but not before Malevolent Thomas issued enough propaganda to drown the counter-raiders.

True story. Totally tragic.

---

Related to the topic: TSS, this isn't going to pass at this rate. Maybe people disagree with your rhetoric?

Edit: I hate phones