[DEFEATED] Repeal SC #127 "Condemn The Black Riders"

[Sedgistan]

The Security Council,

Cognizant of Security Council Resolution #127 passed Dec 27 2013 in response to their heinous actions against Regions and their citizenry all across NationStates.

Noting that due to the expulsion of the founder of The Black Riders; it has since been transformed into a free region and no longer poses a threat to the NationStates community.

Believes that the new government deserves an opportunity to make their own impressions on The World, and the current Condemnation makes that problematic in their efforts to close this dark chapter in the region's history.

Wishing to grant them the full opportunity to re-integrate into the global community by granting them a clean slate. Additionally observing their right to self-determination and their desire to be free from the stigmas imposed by the Condemnation and the old regime.

Hereby,

REPEALS Security Council Resolution #127 "Condemn The Black Riders"

[Jean Pierre Trudeau]

Damn it, beat to the punch!

On the other hand I support this.

[Studly Penguins]

Damn it, beat to the punch!

On the other hand I support this.

Thanks and since I beat you to the punch that should leave the whiskey table open

[The Midwestern Atlantic Colonies]

This is already a proposal, found here: http://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_view_proposal/id=the_midwestern_atlantic_colonies_1433114114

[Todd McCloud]

This is already a proposal, found here: http://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_view_proposal/id=the_midwestern_atlantic_colonies_1433114114

Other people are more than welcome to submit proposals on the same subject.

[Great Brigantia]

The current condition of The Black Riders region doesn't negate what The Black Riders have done, and it has yet to be demonstrated that the occupying force currently residing in The Black Riders region will hold the region long-term. There hasn't even been a password imposed, let alone a re-founding, and the region has come perilously close to being lost due to the inept and erratic behavior of its two prior occupying Delegates. If the raiders that previously controlled The Black Riders were to regain control, the condemnation would still be applicable.

I think this repeal is premature until the new community has demonstrated long-term control of the region, so I'm opposed to repeal.

[Kaboomlandia]

The current condition of The Black Riders region doesn't negate what The Black Riders have done, and it has yet to be demonstrated that the occupying force currently residing in The Black Riders region will hold the region long-term. There hasn't even been a password imposed, let alone a re-founding, and the region has come perilously close to being lost due to the inept and erratic behavior of its two prior occupying Delegates. If the raiders that previously controlled The Black Riders were to regain control, the condemnation would still be applicable.

I think this repeal is premature until the new community has demonstrated long-term control of the region, so I'm opposed to repeal.

Agreed. IIRC, Pontacium actually would have given the region back to DEN had they not been kicked out by Harenhime.

[Harenhime]

I've just like to point out, I've fairly steadily maintained about 60 endorsements for a while now, we've picked a constitution, and democratic elections are commencing as we speak for all Ministerial offices as decreed by the chosen constitution. Say what you will about my predecessors, but I'd like to think we look forward to a stable and secure future from this point forward.

-Harenhime, Delegate of TBR.

[Goddess Relief Office]

Damn it, beat to the punch! >:(

On the other hand I support this. :)

Thanks :) and since I beat you to the punch that should leave the whiskey table open

Why so impatient in getting this repealed? In the time frame of gameplay, several months is nothing. How long has TBR been free compared to the time they were invaders? Not even 10% of the time.

Also, it would not be difficult for an invader to go undercover and takeover the delegate position, pretend to represent native opinion, and request this to be repealed while accumulating influence for a password/refound on behalf of TBR. So assume we repealed this, and then several months down the road they refound the region and hoists the TBR flag up. It won't be easy at that later stage to re-pass the condemn. Have you all verified the background of the last and current delegates? Harenhime, for example, was only recently admitted into the WA, and spent most of its initial NS life in the Rejected Realms. Something tells me he/she wasn't in TRR for no reason.

~GRO~

[Harenhime]

Why so impatient in getting this repealed? In the time frame of gameplay, several months is nothing. How long has TBR been free compared to the time they were invaders? Not even 10% of the time.

Also, it would not be difficult for an invader to go undercover and takeover the delegate position, pretend to represent native opinion, and request this to be repealed while accumulating influence for a password/refound on behalf of TBR. So assume we repealed this, and then several months down the road they refound the region and hoists the TBR flag up. It won't be easy at that later stage to re-pass the condemn. Have you all verified the background of the last and current delegates? Harenhime, for example, was only recently admitted into the WA, and spent most of its initial NS life in the Rejected Realms. Something tells me he/she wasn't in TRR for no reason.

~GRO~

Bit of a sidebar, but The Rejected Realms is actually a pretty nice place to lurk in. Always new people with stories coming in for some time or another. If I recall correctly, I ended up there after being knocked out of one of the warzones I was visitng, and just didn't bother to move for a while - didn't even log in often for a while, in fact. I've been background checked by the intel department, just as I was asked to do one on Pont as my first really major assignment (my reccomendation that he had a bit of a history of strange actions and general agressiveness, and therefore might not be the best person to hold the delegacy, was actually being reviewed when he went rouge...which kinda put it to waste, sadly, but earned me a bit of respect for calling it. I spent several days digging through RMB posts to compile that, so at least that wasn't totally worthless. I only joined the WA when asked to by others - until then, I'd been in TIR looking for the BRU, from where I was directed to the Island of the Lonely in TBR instead (Since UGR had dismantled the BRU). I worked with him for a week or so before actually moving to TBR, when a situation was brewing. With all members of the government besdies Pont above me having been ejected, those in exile asked me, as the highest ranking officer left, to step up and secure the delegacy from Pont. Since then, it's just stayed that way, as we went through constiutional voting, and are now moving into elections. I never asked to be here, just happened to be in the perfect spot between high enough ranked to be trusted by my comerades, and low enough to avoid Pont's banhammer. I would appreciate you asking some of my regionmates about items like this before going right to public slander.

I won't deny we aren't toally secure yet, and it really hasn't been that long. Debate the merits of those as you will. I just wished to react to the statements of Greater Brigantia, questioning what we've built. Even if it was easily possible, I don't think anyone running for any office intends to push a platform of passwording or refounding - and in case you haven't read the Constitution, I don't have any more say than the average citizen anymore. My role is now mainly one of mediator (such as attempting to resolve the recent spit over which of the two forums members have made to host elections on, resolved by creating a google form run by an admin of each forum, so they can both ensure it's fairness), and one of figurehead, carrying out what our soon-to-be-elected ministers and senate will decree. With a planned system to get endorsements on the Prime Minister as well, should I happen to go rouge, or should anyone who replaces me once I retire do the same, we'll hopefully have a second man with enough influence to avoid ejection, and enough endorsements to call on our allies and take emegency power. We're trying to learn from our mistakes here, not repeat them.

[Studly Penguins]

Thanks and since I beat you to the punch that should leave the whiskey table open

Why so impatient in getting this repealed? In the time frame of gameplay, several months is nothing. How long has TBR been free compared to the time they were invaders? Not even 10% of the time.

Also, it would not be difficult for an invader to go undercover and takeover the delegate position, pretend to represent native opinion, and request this to be repealed while accumulating influence for a password/refound on behalf of TBR. So assume we repealed this, and then several months down the road they refound the region and hoists the TBR flag up. It won't be easy at that later stage to re-pass the condemn. Have you all verified the background of the last and current delegates? Harenhime, for example, was only recently admitted into the WA, and spent most of its initial NS life in the Rejected Realms. Something tells me he/she wasn't in TRR for no reason.

~GRO~

I'm sorry and just using this as a talking point so don't take this personal GRO. Taking into consideration Harenhime's response, the fact that I have talked to them, etc I don't understand why everyone is seemingly of the opinion that they deserve to be shamed for what had happened before. Yeah it was a bad past, but its obvious to anyone that they are trying. Give them a chance.

This body passes and repeals C&Cs like they're going out of style. I just don't get the hate.

[The Stalker]

Hmm, personally I think the Condemnation should stay. TBR are a big piece of NS history, and deserve to remain on the books even if they have fallen / re-branded.

[Jakker]

Hmm, personally I think the Condemnation should stay. TBR are a big piece of NS history, and deserve to remain on the books even if they have fallen / re-branded.

Nice to see the former delegate of Texas writing a proposal

I agree with The Stalker here, but best of luck!

[Studly Penguins]

Hmm, personally I think the Condemnation should stay. TBR are a big piece of NS history, and deserve to remain on the books even if they have fallen / re-branded.

While yes we agree that they are a huge part of NS history that isn't enough of a reason to keep it on the books to us b/c anyone who has really played this game will always know who TBR is/was.

[Naginii]

We all know who TBR were, with or without the badge. Taking off the brand doesn't change that.

I'd prefer the brand stay in place. Once branded, always branded. There needs to be some consequence to the WASC to make sure these things are used with care, and are the exception rather than the rule. As said previously, C&Cs are handed-out too freely. Handing them out and then repealing them without care or regard downgrades their limited impact, and further makes them even more meaningless.

All that said, what is the brand actually doing to the region? It's not affecting their ability to grow, seeing as they're at 400+ nations and climbing, nor does it seem to harm their efforts opening new diplomatic relations across the gamemap. It's part of the current iteration of the region's history, it's legacy and it needs to stay part of it's future so long as it remains as-is. Whitewashing is something that raiders have been accused of in here for years, but since this was a raider region erasing regional history is now okay?
If the new "native" raiders didn't want a badge, they shouldn't have raided the founderless, branded region in the first place.

Besides, as Sedge has argued all too well, if you do get this passed, what's to stop a good raider from flipping TBR back into the hands of the natives? Not much. To determined raiders, anything is possible. As soon as that happens, a nation is bound to quickly scribble-out a new condemn prop to replace the one you took down, thus making this look even more silly. Awesome legislative credibility.

If they want to be rid of the brand, then let the natives show their commitment and refound the region under a new "business plan" free of raiding. That's the best way they can be genuinely free of a legacy not theirs.

[Harenhime]

Two things- First, the population has been falling steadily. When I came into office, it was near 500, free-fell at a rate of 6-12 per update for a few days (I believe that was the two-month anniversary of the initial occupation), and has now settled at a rate of about 3-4 cte's per update. Add to that almost no new arrivals (no recruitment), and live nations returning to their original homes now that the riders are gone, and I'd be surprised if we still had over 400 in two weeks. The second point was due to what you said about refounding- besides the fact that a refound would be incredibly complicated and a major security risk, if I recall correctly from my research there was a mod post once stating that, though the game removes liberation a when a region is refounded and a mod has to manually reinstate it, the proposal is still valid until repealed. I'd assume the same would apply to other SC resolutions.

[Todd McCloud]

After reading this over a few more times, this sort of reminds me of some of the arguments regarding Condemn Macedon.

[Kaboomlandia]

After reading this over a few more times, this sort of reminds me of some of the arguments regarding Condemn Macedon.

You mean the "the body that got them condemned isn't around, so the region shouldn't have the badge anymore" argument?

[Sainterre]

After reading this over a few more times, this sort of reminds me of some of the arguments regarding Condemn Macedon.

You mean the "the body that got them condemned isn't around, so the region shouldn't have the badge anymore" argument?

Yeah, that argument has never really flown with me. Just because the condemned aren't around anymore, like in the case of the TBR and Macedon, it doesn't necessitate a repeal of their condemnations.

The Sainterran delegation is against such a proposal.

[SovietSparta]

We all know who TBR were, with or without the badge. Taking off the brand doesn't change that.

I'd prefer the brand stay in place. Once branded, always branded. There needs to be some consequence to the WASC to make sure these things are used with care, and are the exception rather than the rule. As said previously, C&Cs are handed-out too freely. Handing them out and then repealing them without care or regard downgrades their limited impact, and further makes them even more meaningless.

All that said, what is the brand actually doing to the region? It's not affecting their ability to grow, seeing as they're at 400+ nations and climbing, nor does it seem to harm their efforts opening new diplomatic relations across the gamemap. It's part of the current iteration of the region's history, it's legacy and it needs to stay part of it's future so long as it remains as-is. Whitewashing is something that raiders have been accused of in here for years, but since this was a raider region erasing regional history is now okay?
If the new "native" raiders didn't want a badge, they shouldn't have raided the founderless, branded region in the first place.

Besides, as Sedge has argued all too well, if you do get this passed, what's to stop a good raider from flipping TBR back into the hands of the natives? Not much. To determined raiders, anything is possible. As soon as that happens, a nation is bound to quickly scribble-out a new condemn prop to replace the one you took down, thus making this look even more silly. Awesome legislative credibility.

If they want to be rid of the brand, then let the natives show their commitment and refound the region under a new "business plan" free of raiding. That's the best way they can be genuinely free of a legacy not theirs.

Honestly, I'm a bit conflicted on this issue, but you can't really say they shouldn't have invaded if they didn't want a badge. If they hadn't done so, TBR would still be around, taking regions faster than they can liberated.

[Ainocra]

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.


Opposed

[Toastinia]

I'm a nice person, my region has never been ransacked, therefore I feel only slightly bad in voting for this Resolution.

[The Crystal North]

Given that it's been nearly two years since the original condemnation was passed, The Crystal North believes that The Black Riders have the right to prove their commitment to reformation. We vote in favour of this repeal.

[Island of the Lonely]

I am one of the few nations who have been in TBR and helped with the take down. I saw Ponty go crazy and would like to think that I am at least a somewhat influential nation within it.
I can tell you that we have already begun on liberation campaigns, working jointly with the LLA on a few occasions. This region will turn into a thriving community, dedicated to defending, and hopefully, rping as well.
Whether or not we want the condemnation repealed however.. That is a different story. It sets the region apart, and since we are still serving the no recruitment penalty assigned by the mods (I think) it is one of the few ways to attract new or even experienced nations.

The fact is, in a way the region needs it.. That is by no means a reason to keep or discard a commendation or condemnation, but it is something to consider.
-IotL

[Arctriul]

This is my view - so in turn all of Sanctum's

"We don't endorse the sickening, uncoordinated morass harbouring TBR - they decide to stay in a condemned house; then they can deal with the asbestos. if they wish to remain in a region which isn't riddled with a bad past and they want a chance; then they should found a region. This here is a waist of the security council's time!"