[DEFEATED] Commend Mahaj

[Normlpeople]

Lets check the SC 'Standard for Commendation' checklist:

Defender: check
Member of alphabet treaty defender organization: check
Active in government of a sinker/feeder: check

Yup, submit it, the voters will make sure it goes through. I won't support it though.

There are plenty of nations that have been commended and do not fit that list.


That all said, I could get behind a balanced commendation of Mahaj.

I agree, in the past. However, the SC these days is commend based on that list, and don't bother condemning, since that has to be what that nation wants. But this is for another time, I will stand opposed to this as I do every commendation based on that above list.

[Todd McCloud]

There are plenty of nations that have been commended and do not fit that list.


That all said, I could get behind a balanced commendation of Mahaj.

I agree, in the past. However, the SC these days is commend based on that list, and don't bother condemning, since that has to be what that nation wants. But this is for another time, I will stand opposed to this as I do every commendation based on that above list.

Pardon me for parlaying the conversation, but how does that help the SC? I get how defenders will be defenders and raiders will be raiders and never the two shall meet, but is it impossible to see someone's accomplishments from the other side of the fence? I'm not trying to call you out here - it's kind of open ended and something I've noticed from many nations over, well, a while now.

[Cormac Stark]

There's no question that those who have been commended or condemned thus far have deserved it.

Then save me some stamps and stop trying to repeal Commend Westwind.

Touche, I forgot about that one.

[The Bruce]

Umm, the difference is that Evil Wolf is still, to this day, invading and destroying regions. Mahaj has long since changed; Evil Wolf hasn't. You can make a false equivalence if you want, but it will still be a false equivalence.

Ignoring moralistic arguments that Evil Wolf has done more "bad"

I'm not certain you can throw around resolutions that 'commend' and 'condemn' without having a morality arguement involved somewhere. It might for instance to considered gaushe to commend someone for the destruction of regional communities, for the sheer joy of their suffering and confusion. Sounds kinda more like something you'd want to condemn someone for. You know, unless you were really into the destruction of regional communities, for the sheer joy of their suffering and confusion.

In the case of Mahaj, you have to factor in the 'little bit of column A' and a 'little bit of column B'. Have they had a significant influence on NationStates? Yes. Should this commendation go through without any mention of their invader past? Not so much.

I'm also not certain I'd go into too much detail about mentioning goings on in Osiris in a commendation. Anyone trying to do the right thing there can be summed up by: "bad things happened with Osiris. "N" person was among those trying to work against the very bad things, but nevertheless badness happened."

[Cormac Stark]

In the case of Mahaj, you have to factor in the 'little bit of column A' and a 'little bit of column B'. Have they had a significant influence on NationStates? Yes. Should this commendation go through without any mention of their invader past? Not so much.

I would be willing to briefly mention his past, though I should note that other commendations have not made such mentions when the invader past of the nominee was brief, not very notable, and years prior to the commendation with much good work done in the intervening years. I don't really think Mahaj did anything significant enough during that time period to warrant a mention, but if that would make the resolution more likely to pass, I suppose I could mention it.

I'm also not certain I'd go into too much detail about mentioning goings on in Osiris in a commendation. Anyone trying to do the right thing there can be summed up by: "bad things happened with Osiris. "N" person was among those trying to work against the very bad things, but nevertheless badness happened."

I don't see any reason Osiris should be treated differently than any other Feeder or Sinker, and I doubt I need to point out how many commendations include references to service in a Feeder or Sinker. Most Feeders and Sinkers have had their troubles, particularly in their early years -- it just so happens that unlike the others, Osiris is still in its early years.

[Drop Your Pants]

Mahaj is a great example of someone burning out in a leadership position. I spent many an update in #udl trying to yell people into defending (while he was active in the channel) and got little to no response. Hell, at that time I had to train UDL newbies during update because they'd received no training beyond get a WA and join the channel.

So anything mentioning Mahaj's wonderful contributions to Defending receives a big HELL NO from me

There was also that time he was tarting in Laz....

[KaelThas Quilor]

I don't see any reason Osiris should be treated differently than any other Feeder or Sinker, and I doubt I need to point out how many commendations include references to service in a Feeder or Sinker. Most Feeders and Sinkers have had their troubles, particularly in their early years -- it just so happens that unlike the others, Osiris is still in its early years.

I hate to agree with Cormac, but I also love to disagree with The Bruce. In this case, I think Cormac has the right of it. I certainly enjoyed Mahaj getting punted afterwards, but the man was one of many people who fought long and hard in that struggle, and while I wouldn't say he did the most (who did is open to a lot of debate) he certainly did a lot.

[Zaolat]

Mahaj is a great example of someone burning out in a leadership position. I spent many an update in #udl trying to yell people into defending (while he was active in the channel) and got little to no response. Hell, at that time I had to train UDL newbies during update because they'd received no training beyond get a WA and join the channel.

So anything mentioning Mahaj's wonderful contributions to Defending receives a big HELL NO from me

There was also that time he was tarting in Laz....

DYP hath spoken!

[Ynys Prydain]

Mahaj is a great example of someone burning out in a leadership position. I spent many an update in #udl trying to yell people into defending (while he was active in the channel) and got little to no response. Hell, at that time I had to train UDL newbies during update because they'd received no training beyond get a WA and join the channel.

So anything mentioning Mahaj's wonderful contributions to Defending receives a big HELL NO from me

There was also that time he was tarting in Laz....

You have to enjoy that defender-on-defender bashing. What's wrong, DYP, jealous?

As previously noted, Mahaj has participated in over twenty significant liberations and the contributions I've noted that he made to the UDL are accurate. At no point in the proposal do I argue that Mahaj made the UDL the most active defender organization in the world. He is as deserving of commendation as most of the others who have been commended.

[KaelThas Quilor]

Lots of people 'participated' in libs.

Still, I anticipate this passing with minimal controversy, assuming it gets quorum.

[Ynys Prydain]

Lots of people 'participated' in libs.

Still, I anticipate this passing with minimal controversy, assuming it gets quorum.

Yes, quorum would be the sticking point given that people have taken a special interest in ensuring I can't pass anything. And then they talk about my petty vendettas.

[Evil Wolf]

What's wrong, DYP, jealous?

Uhh, I think you're confusing jealousy with frustration over inept and incompetent leadership.

Easy mistake to make.

[Solorni]

I would support a measure that deserves support.

[Ynys Prydain]

I would support a measure that deserves support.

We get it, you don't support the proposal. You've said it at least three times. Now buzz off, surely Balder needs a new poll.

[Evil Wolf]

Now buzz off, surely Balder needs a new poll.

Sick burn.

[KaelThas Quilor]

Lots of people 'participated' in libs.

Still, I anticipate this passing with minimal controversy, assuming it gets quorum.

Yes, quorum would be the sticking point given that people have taken a special interest in ensuring I can't pass anything. And then they talk about my petty vendettas.

They do it because its funny to see you fail at everything since your return, not because they don't like you.

Now granted, I don't like you, but I'm also not involved in the counter-campaigns.

[Ynys Prydain]

They do it because its funny to see you fail at everything since your return, not because they don't like you.

I'm pretty sure working that hard to block my proposals, just because they find it funny to see me fail at everything since my return, is an indication of not liking me. Mind you, I don't care, nor am I going to give up. If anything, they're just making me want these proposals to succeed more and I'll keep trying until most of them do. But let's not pretend I'm the only one with a petty vendetta here.

[KaelThas Quilor]

They do it because its funny to see you fail at everything since your return, not because they don't like you.

I'm pretty sure working that hard to block my proposals, just because they find it funny to see me fail at everything since my return, is an indication of not liking me. Mind you, I don't care, nor am I going to give up. If anything, they're just making me want these proposals to succeed more and I'll keep trying until most of them do. But let's not pretend I'm the only one with a petty vendetta here.

Wanting to stop you from passing dislike proposals isn't a vendetta. Its just funny that you're being so prolific right now...and failing.

EDIT: Changed due to previous content being in poor taste

[Drop Your Pants]

You have to enjoy that defender-on-defender bashing. What's wrong, DYP, jealous?

Being truthful is bashing?

As previously noted, Mahaj has participated in over twenty significant liberations and the contributions I've noted that he made to the UDL are accurate.

How many of those were when he was Chief?

[Ynys Prydain]

How many of those were when he was Chief?

None, as far as I know, but that was an inactive period for defending across the board. How many liberations, period, occurred during that time?

I don't think Mahaj should be faulted because he isn't Unibot. He has been a solid defender, he did do good things for the UDL as Chief even if he wasn't as active in update defending as some would have preferred, and he has made major contributions to Osiris and to the WA. He meets the threshold for commendation by the Security Council.

[RiderSyl]

Wow, what a meltdown this is.

[Ynys Prydain]

Wow, what a meltdown this is.

I fail to see a meltdown. This hasn't even been submitted yet.

But keep pushing, Syl.

[Solorni]

Why not nominate a worthy defender instead?

[Ynys Prydain]

Why not nominate a worthy defender instead?

I believe Mahaj is a worthy defender, as do several others who have commented in this thread. Again, I am aware that you don't, but reminding us of that daily -- unless you have something substantive to add to the discussion -- is both unnecessary and annoying.

[KaelThas Quilor]

And reminding her of that is unnecessary and annoying, Cormac