PASSED: Liberate Free Thought

[Whamabama]

Remember the liberation of Belgium? A defender/native WA delegate took over the position from the raider delegate at 4 pm my time. And guess what: the two updates were 6am/6pm, or 10am/10pm by the old rule, I don't recall. In any case, update NEVER was 4 pm. Except for that day.

Also, the "Liberation" game change was proposed after the "Annex". Liberations benefit defenders, while annex benefits generally everyone, although mostly raiders. And guess what? Liberations were implemented with the speed of light, and annex is still not implemented - besides the huge interest, and it being proposed like 6 months ago.

Also, there are cases where nations are "accidentally" logged off without pressing the logout button - at the exact time when they were about to refound a region of theirs (which has to be done in a matter of seconds) - only for the same region to be refounded by "someone else", the very second they login again. Needles to say, the nation who got logged off was an invader.

These cases I've experienced myself, or people close to me. No lies, no deceit, no trickery here. It is more than clear: fendas have sided with the mods and admins, and they are misusing it to the fullest extent. No matter how little sense their written arguments make, they have the advantage of virtually "controlling" gameplay, and therefor have the upper hand on their oppressed counterparts.

I don't know about most of what you said is true, however I know your claims of Belgium updating 2 hours off is not true. It updated at 0422 GMT that night. Also given that over 20 defenders moved into the region within a span of less than 60 seconds of update, something that would have been a massive failure if the region had updated 2 hours prior as you say. Update started at 0400 GMT, and because of the time switch it's now an hour later.

[Dysian]

While I appreciate that the bug is annoying, its been there for 2 months

Oh? It must be a native bug then.

I don't know about most of what you said is true, however I know your claims of Belgium updating 2 hours off is not true. It updated at 0422 GMT that night.

What I said about Belgium is from the most reliable source on NS I could ever get - we've worked together since I started actively playing, he tells me even when he breaks the rules. Trust me, there is no reason for this friend of mine to lie to me about this.

I asked him again today, he is pretty sure. He said that that day, he checked around noon GMT, and the invader delegate was still in place. Naturally, the update is supposed to happen at around 4am/4pm GMT. Then he came back home, a couple of hours later (around 2-3pm GMT) and there was a native/fenda delegate. And most of all, it was written that he became delegate 10 hours ago - and my friend saw that, merely 2 hours ago, he wasn't.

I repeat, this is the last person that would lie to me on NS. This might also serve as a proof to Kandarin (depends on how much you trust my word, of course) that the superiors are not that innocent.

[Martyrdoom]

*stamping about, outraged*

You expect us to believe that this is the first you've heard of the problems with the vote timer?

To be fair, that's not really the point. Even if Todd had heard about it, how does that help those delegates who were unaware that the WA-timer is off?

[Satan In the Flesh]

I repeat, this is the last person that would lie to me on NS. This might also serve as a proof to Kandarin (depends on how much you trust my word, of course) that the superiors are not that innocent.

*picking some food out of his teeth*

Why would a mod risk their modily powers, and their reputation to help Belgium -- when it was going to be liberated by the WA in two days anyway? Thats just silly.

[Sedgistan]

Plus, is the mods disliked invading as much as you suggest, they'd just have it banned.

[Mad Sheep Railgun]

*stamping about, outraged*

You expect us to believe that this is the first you've heard of the problems with the vote timer?

To be fair, that's not really the point. Even if Todd had heard about it, how does that help those delegates who were unaware that the WA-timer is off?

Well yes but, I mean, how could anyone have been unaware of it? I'm not all that active in the WA any more and I knew about it as did everyone else I know. It's been going on for months now.

[Todd McCloud]

*stamping about, outraged*

You expect us to believe that this is the first you've heard of the problems with the vote timer?

To be fair, that's not really the point. Even if Todd had heard about it, how does that help those delegates who were unaware that the WA-timer is off?

Well yes but, I mean, how could anyone have been unaware of it? I'm not all that active in the WA any more and I knew about it as did everyone else I know. It's been going on for months now.

Bottom line: the correct voting time frame was not presented, and ended eleven hours earlier than its reported end time. The resolution "won" with sixty votes. Null and void.

[Sedgistan]

Bottom line: the correct voting time frame was not presented, and ended eleven hours earlier than its reported end time. The resolution "won" with sixty votes. Null and void.

You've had a mod contradict you, and Unibot has helpfully pointed out a few other resolutions that would have to have a re-vote if you wanted this to be voted upon again. Do you really want them all voted on again, or are you just upset because one that you didn't like happened to pass?

[Todd McCloud]

Bottom line: the correct voting time frame was not presented, and ended eleven hours earlier than its reported end time. The resolution "won" with sixty votes. Null and void.

You've had a mod contradict you, and Unibot has helpfully pointed out a few other resolutions that would have to have a re-vote if you wanted this to be voted upon again. Do you really want them all voted on again, or are you just upset because one that you didn't like happened to pass?

Those other resolutions passed by *at least* a 60% margin. This one passed "generously" at 51% (sixty votes). Therefore, a discrepancy in the voting times could seriously alter the outcome of the resolution. And, as I said, I don't care who wins. I care about democracy.

Null and void. This is a hollow victory, and I am personally shocked to see even a few people who comment frequently call it a "win" and "celebrate" this "victory" when if they didn't "win" they'd change their tone completely. How hypocritical and disgusting.

[Sedgistan]

If you really want a ruling on this, then go and ask in moderation for a ruling or submit a getting help request.

Any of those other resolutions could've swung in 12 hours so that the outcome was changed. If this resolution had failed, I would've accepted it - I've already pointed out that I (and my co-author, and the others helping out the campaign) were all aware of the bug with the WA vote timer.

[Ananke]

Well, we'd evidently all prefer for the WA voting timer to be correct, so why don't those of you who haven't already go to the Technical forum and post in one of the topics already dealing with the bug, so the admins can see that fixing this bug really matters to people? There's a bigger chance they'll see it there than in a random SC thread.

[Mad Sheep Railgun]

Null and void.

LOL! It's not "null and void" just because you say it is. What, do you fancy yourself an admin now? The timer is screwed up. It has been screwed up for a very long time. 11 hours were not "taken away", the vote ended exactly on time.

[Unibot]

Bottom line: the correct voting time frame was not presented, and ended eleven hours earlier than its reported end time. The resolution "won" with sixty votes. Null and void.

You've had a mod contradict you, and Unibot has helpfully pointed out a few other resolutions that would have to have a re-vote if you wanted this to be voted upon again. Do you really want them all voted on again, or are you just upset because one that you didn't like happened to pass?

Those other resolutions passed by *at least* a 60% margin. This one passed "generously" at 51% (sixty votes). Therefore, a discrepancy in the voting times could seriously alter the outcome of the resolution. And, as I said, I don't care who wins. I care about democracy.

Null and void. This is a hollow victory, and I am personally shocked to see even a few people who comment frequently call it a "win" and "celebrate" this "victory" when if they didn't "win" they'd change their tone completely. How hypocritical and disgusting.

Poppycock, those resolutions which passed by 60% could have been easily affected if more delegates of UCRs had chosen to take a position on it.

According to Texas's stats, there isn't a drastic change between the delegates who attended each resolution -- for example, only 18 didn't vote on this resolution, that did on the previous resolution....

This is a table of resolutions that I know for a fact have been affected by the 11 hour shift. (there might have been more before resolutions prior to SC#9).

Resolution	# of Delegates	Voting Attendance	+/-	Delegate Attendance
Liberate The Security Council	902	36.0%	-16.0%	324.72
Cultural Heritage Protection	902	34.0%	6.0%	306.68
Commend Goobergunchia	908	38.0%	10.0%	345.04
Liberate Democratia	898	35.0%	-7.0%	314.3
Commend Anti World Assembly	917	35.0%	1.0%	320.95
First Tort Reform Act	927	34.0%	-4.0%	315.18
Condemn Aegara	923	31.0%	-7.0%	286.13
Condemn The Axis of Evil	935	32.0%	3.0%	299.2
International Postal Union	934	33.0%	1.0%	308.22
Commend Todd McCloud	944	34.0%	5.0%	320.96
Liberate Utopia	922	27.0%	-17.0%	248.94
Liberate Land of the Liberals	918	31.0%	14.0%	284.58
Medical Blockade Restriction	900	36.0%	17.0%	324
Liberate Free Thought	900	34.0%	-6.0%	306

[Slaytesics]

Bottom line: the correct voting time frame was not presented, and ended eleven hours earlier than its reported end time. The resolution "won" with sixty votes. Null and void.

You've had a mod contradict you, and Unibot has helpfully pointed out a few other resolutions that would have to have a re-vote if you wanted this to be voted upon again. Do you really want them all voted on again, or are you just upset because one that you didn't like happened to pass?

Those other resolutions passed by *at least* a 60% margin. This one passed "generously" at 51% (sixty votes). Therefore, a discrepancy in the voting times could seriously alter the outcome of the resolution. And, as I said, I don't care who wins. I care about democracy.

Null and void. This is a hollow victory, and I am personally shocked to see even a few people who comment frequently call it a "win" and "celebrate" this "victory" when if they didn't "win" they'd change their tone completely. How hypocritical and disgusting.

Look, just because a vote won by a small margin it does not mean it was null and void. There was much disagreement, and I do believe the vote timer needs to be more accurate. It is true not everyone in the WA voted on the resolution, but, this happens EVERY vote*. I am telling you right now, don't apply for a revote, because people don't like revotes on liberations, because revotes on these things waste time. So a lot more people will vote against it.

[Travancore-Cochin]

Look, just because a vote won by a small margin it does not mean it was null and void. There was much disagreement, and I do believe the vote timer needs to be more accurate. It is true not everyone in the WA voted on the resolution, but, this happens EVERY vote*. I am telling you right now, don't apply for a revote, because people don't like revotes on liberations, because revotes on these things waste time. So a lot more people will vote against it.

Oh, that's exactly what he wants.

[A mean old man]

I think he meant vote against the repeal.

But of course he would want a repeal.

[Flibbleites]

Null and void.

LOL! It's not "null and void" just because you say it is. What, do you fancy yourself an admin now? The timer is screwed up. It has been screwed up for a very long time. 11 hours were not "taken away", the vote ended exactly on time.

If I remember correctly, there have even been times when the site was down when the voting ended and the results still weren't declared null and void.

[Unibotian WASC Mission]

Null and void.

LOL! It's not "null and void" just because you say it is. What, do you fancy yourself an admin now? The timer is screwed up. It has been screwed up for a very long time. 11 hours were not "taken away", the vote ended exactly on time.

If I remember correctly, there have even been times when the site was down when the voting ended and the results still weren't declared null and void.

Food Welfare Act was affected by the inclusion of liberations to the code.

[Ardchoille]

Some of you had better step right back now and take a look at what you're saying. You're implying, none too subtly, that mods hauled the vote-closing time forward because we wanted this vote to pass. (And don't try to hide behind IC; if you're discussing mods' actions, you're OOC.)

Actually, you're implying that Pythagasaurus. [violet] or Max wanted that vote to pass, because forum mods don't have that power, game mods don't have that power, and I suspect that Reppy, althought she's a board admin, doesn't have it either.

Considering the amount of explaining mods have to do when we consult admins on SC stuff, I'd be surprised if any of those four even knew that the then-current At Vote was in the SC, not the GA. They had bigger things on their hands yesterday.

Reppy's been chasing some minor board spammers -- tedious, but necessary every now and then, like combing your dog for fleas -- and Max, [violet] and Pyth have been fixing up the problems with the Search function. That's taken the board out a couple of times and, as Flib pointed out, it's happened before that voting times wobble when major board maintenance is being done. It's also standard that the votes stay as they are.

I'm perplexed why anyone would make such an attack on the modding of this game. Sorry to be pompous, but we do have standards on "integrity" and "accountability".

Aside from that, the only time I've ever seen the mods and admins pull off a successful conspiracy is in the month before April 1 each year. Maybe we should take the accusations as some form of back-handed compliment. If so, I'm sorry, but I have to disappoint you: NS mods are just not that good at evil.

[Urgench]

*stamping about, outraged*

You expect us to believe that this is the first you've heard of the problems with the vote timer?

To be fair, that's not really the point. Even if Todd had heard about it, how does that help those delegates who were unaware that the WA-timer is off?

Well yes but, I mean, how could anyone have been unaware of it? I'm not all that active in the WA any more and I knew about it as did everyone else I know. It's been going on for months now.

Bottom line: the correct voting time frame was not presented, and ended eleven hours earlier than its reported end time. The resolution "won" with sixty votes. Null and void.

If I remember correctly you were pretty vehemently against my proposal that SC resolutions, especially Liberations, be required to pass with a qualified majority, I seem to remember you and others were all for simple majorities no matter how small they were, as being the ideal expression of democracy, now you seem to have a problem with how narrow this vote was. So this Liberation passed by a small majority, and there's a known problem with vote timings, if delegates don't make themselves familiar with that ( even if it does have any effect in this case) that's their problem. This is the outcome of simple majorities passing Liberations not with bugs in the vote timing.

[Kalibarr]

*stamping about, outraged*

You expect us to believe that this is the first you've heard of the problems with the vote timer?

To be fair, that's not really the point. Even if Todd had heard about it, how does that help those delegates who were unaware that the WA-timer is off?

Well yes but, I mean, how could anyone have been unaware of it? I'm not all that active in the WA any more and I knew about it as did everyone else I know. It's been going on for months now.

Bottom line: the correct voting time frame was not presented, and ended eleven hours earlier than its reported end time. The resolution "won" with sixty votes. Null and void.

If I remember correctly you were pretty vehemently against my proposal that SC resolutions, especially Liberations, be required to pass with a qualified majority, I seem to remember you and others were all for simple majorities no matter how small they were, as being the ideal expression of democracy, now you seem to have a problem with how narrow this vote was. So this Liberation passed by a small majority, and there's a known problem with vote timings, if delegates don't make themselves familiar with that ( even if it does have any effect in this case) that's their problem. This is the outcome of simple majorities passing Liberations not with bugs in the vote timing.

it passed by plurality, not majority. Remember that jefferson quote? I think it's relevant now.

[Topid]

I went on a four day NS vacation, I come back and the worlds gone mad... I feel like I left my home of Salem MA to go on vacation in 1691, and have come back a year later.

[Sedgistan]

You even missed The Security Council getting raided, but since we didn't know when you'd be back, me & Uni sorted out a liberation

[Whamabama]

What I said about Belgium is from the most reliable source on NS I could ever get - we've worked together since I started actively playing, he tells me even when he breaks the rules. Trust me, there is no reason for this friend of mine to lie to me about this.

I asked him again today, he is pretty sure. He said that that day, he checked around noon GMT, and the invader delegate was still in place. Naturally, the update is supposed to happen at around 4am/4pm GMT. Then he came back home, a couple of hours later (around 2-3pm GMT) and there was a native/fenda delegate. And most of all, it was written that he became delegate 10 hours ago - and my friend saw that, merely 2 hours ago, he wasn't.

I repeat, this is the last person that would lie to me on NS. This might also serve as a proof to Kandarin (depends on how much you trust my word, of course) that the superiors are not that innocent.

I was there the moment it updated. I don't need to ask when it updated. There was nothing odd about the update, it was consistent to the regions prior update times.



Like I said I was there the moment it updated.

[Flibbleites]

Some of you had better step right back now and take a look at what you're saying. You're implying, none too subtly, that mods hauled the vote-closing time forward because we wanted this vote to pass. (And don't try to hide behind IC; if you're discussing mods' actions, you're OOC.)

Actually, you're implying that Pythagasaurus. [violet] or Max wanted that vote to pass, because forum mods don't have that power, game mods don't have that power, and I suspect that Reppy, althought she's a board admin, doesn't have it either.

Considering the amount of explaining mods have to do when we consult admins on SC stuff, I'd be surprised if any of those four even knew that the then-current At Vote was in the SC, not the GA. They had bigger things on their hands yesterday.

Reppy's been chasing some minor board spammers -- tedious, but necessary every now and then, like combing your dog for fleas -- and Max, [violet] and Pyth have been fixing up the problems with the Search function. That's taken the board out a couple of times and, as Flib pointed out, it's happened before that voting times wobble when major board maintenance is being done. It's also standard that the votes stay as they are.

I'm perplexed why anyone would make such an attack on the modding of this game. Sorry to be pompous, but we do have standards on "integrity" and "accountability".

Aside from that, the only time I've ever seen the mods and admins pull off a successful conspiracy is in the month before April 1 each year. Maybe we should take the accusations as some form of back-handed compliment. If so, I'm sorry, but I have to disappoint you: NS mods are just not that good at evil.

Why do I suddenly have an idea for a Bastard NS Mod post?