[PASSED] Liberate The International Communist Union

[Fleistin]

Let the region do what it wants, gosh. Why should we force them to do anything?

[Vashtanaraada]

Let the region do what it wants, gosh. Why should we force them to do anything?

because we've been overthrown, so we can't do what we want

[Republic of Minerva]

I approve. The nutzis should be shown no quarter.

Libertatem has colluded with and list in its constitution that it would ally with even the most depraved fascist to stamp out any remotely leftist ideology. One would have to be a fool not to see that you and the fascist are different sides of the same bourgeois coin. You both are seeking to perpetuate the tyranny of capital.

You do realize that's not our current version?

[Daburuetchi]

Libertatem has colluded with and list in its constitution that it would ally with even the most depraved fascist to stamp out any remotely leftist ideology. One would have to be a fool not to see that you and the fascist are different sides of the same bourgeois coin. You both are seeking to perpetuate the tyranny of capital.

You do realize that's not our current version?

It doesn't really matter what you claim your current vision to be at the moment. Libertarian bourgeois democracy and fascism are both types of bourgeois rule and thus wield terrorism as an inherent part of class rule. If ever your region faced a major crises or nears its overthrow threatened it is inevitable that you would swing toward fascism.

[Republic of Minerva]

You do realize that's not our current version?

It doesn't really matter what you claim your current vision to be at the moment. Libertarian bourgeois democracy and fascism are both types of bourgeois rule and thus wield terrorism as an inherent part of class rule. If ever your region faced a major crises or nears its overthrow threatened it is inevitable that you would swing toward fascism.

Unfortunately for you, I do not see any "bourgeois" class structure in my region. I've never heard of libertarian terrorists before either.

If there are any people that swing near fascism, it is the self proclaimed "anti-fascists" that go around attacking anyone with an ideology they deem to be oppressive. So how come opposing them is suddenly evil?

I have no love for the ICU, but they weren't doing anything to harm anyone. It is then consistent that I would support liberating them from people who do.

[Daburuetchi]

It doesn't really matter what you claim your current vision to be at the moment. Libertarian bourgeois democracy and fascism are both types of bourgeois rule and thus wield terrorism as an inherent part of class rule. If ever your region faced a major crises or nears its overthrow threatened it is inevitable that you would swing toward fascism.

Unfortunately for you, I do not see any "bourgeois" class structure in my region. I've never heard of libertarian terrorists before either.

If there are any people that swing near fascism, it is the self proclaimed "anti-fascists" that go around attacking anyone with an ideology they deem to be oppressive. So how come opposing them is suddenly evil?

I have no love for the ICU, but they weren't doing anything to harm anyone. It is then consistent that I would support liberating them from people who do.

By terrorism I mean that even if workers and the masses are allowed some considerable level of freedom or speech, organization etc It will certainly be illegal for workers to try to defend their interest and welfare through any type of force or violence. Not only will bourgeois squash those directly involved in these rebellions but they will;; make them an "object lesson." You cannot challenge the laws of private property under capitalism since capitalism could not function if workers had access to means of production, including land. Any attempt to do so would result in your immediate arrest. Terrorism is inherent in any capitalist society. Even if you support capitalism (which is inherently evil since it necessitates waste, poverty, unemployment, inter-imperilaist conflict and periodic cycles of economic depression) condemning leftist and anti-fascist for opposing the tide of crazy, reactionary fascist is not in line with your interest of having a bourgeois democratic society. Just because you liberate the ICU today does not mean you would not turn around tomorrow and place them under your sphere of influence.

[Ainin]

Naturally wholly for.

[N-America]

By terrorism I mean that even if workers and the masses are allowed some considerable level of freedom or speech, organization etc It will certainly be illegal for workers to try to defend their interest and welfare through any type of force or violence. Not only will bourgeois squash those directly involved in these rebellions but they will;; make them an "object lesson."

Are you suggesting it should be legal for people to "defend their interest and welfare" with violence, or force?
Considering you called it "terrorism" for the ruling structure to put down this violence, it seems so.
If it is so, and people resisted Communist/Socialist rule or organization of things in the manner of these "rebellions" you placed the "masses" in, would you support them being allowed to do so, or would you reveal your hypocrisy and show how you allow your blind hatred of the right to control you?

You cannot challenge the laws of private property under capitalism since capitalism could not function if workers had access to means of production, including land.

After reading this, I'd say nineteenth century communists would like their argument back, considering you have insinuated that Capitalism has each person tied to one single role for life. It seems to me you would be thinking of feudalism, or the rest of the world's transition from its history of said system. In a truly capitalist society everyone has an equal chance to be a great success or an ultimate failure, everybody still has that chance to be what they aspire to, which is quite fair. On the other side of the spectrum, Socialism and the variations of Communism generally incorporate what i'd like to call mandated equality. Under these systems people are made to be equal without consent, no matter the differences in their effort or contribution to society. To spread resources equally for everyone would entitle each person to less resources/lower quality thereof than they may need, or that they deserve to at least have a chance to experience. In Capitalism everyone has a chance to be well off, and not everyone is sharing the same quality of misery.

Any attempt to do so would result in your immediate arrest.

Not sure where you get your news but I've never seen a headline that read "Protesters arrested for campaigning to do away with private property(or claim a good amount as public land from the hands of private citizens)." If you're counting occasions where someone used violence to further this goal, it's rather foolish to believe they were arrested for their goals when it is the violence itself that is the legal crime regardless of their political agenda.

Terrorism is inherent in any capitalist society.

Basis for this statement being what exactly?

[Sedgistan]

Please stick to debating the proposal. RL politics/philosophy gets discussed in the General forum.

[ByeMuddyValentine]

Yes, strike down the barriers imposed by the natives! Leave the region open to constant raids after we take our leave! Another stellar decision from the fine folks of the 'Security' Council - doing everything to decrease regional security.

Better hope the repeal passes quickly afterwards. Don't want TBR or anyone getting into a Founderless, passwordless, small region, now do we?

[N-America]

Right, anyway, I feel that both parties involved are bad, I have no strong desire to help either.

[Daburuetchi]

By terrorism I mean that even if workers and the masses are allowed some considerable level of freedom or speech, organization etc It will certainly be illegal for workers to try to defend their interest and welfare through any type of force or violence. Not only will bourgeois squash those directly involved in these rebellions but they will;; make them an "object lesson."

Are you suggesting it should be legal for people to "defend their interest and welfare" with violence, or force?
Considering you called it "terrorism" for the ruling structure to put down this violence, it seems so.
If it is so, and people resisted Communist/Socialist rule or organization of things in the manner of these "rebellions" you placed the "masses" in, would you support them being allowed to do so, or would you reveal your hypocrisy and show how you allow your blind hatred of the right to control you?

You cannot challenge the laws of private property under capitalism since capitalism could not function if workers had access to means of production, including land.

After reading this, I'd say nineteenth century communists would like their argument back, considering you have insinuated that Capitalism has each person tied to one single role for life. It seems to me you would be thinking of feudalism, or the rest of the world's transition from its history of said system. In a truly capitalist society everyone has an equal chance to be a great success or an ultimate failure, everybody still has that chance to be what they aspire to, which is quite fair. On the other side of the spectrum, Socialism and the variations of Communism generally incorporate what i'd like to call mandated equality. Under these systems people are made to be equal without consent, no matter the differences in their effort or contribution to society. To spread resources equally for everyone would entitle each person to less resources/lower quality thereof than they may need, or that they deserve to at least have a chance to experience. In Capitalism everyone has a chance to be well off, and not everyone is sharing the same quality of misery.

Any attempt to do so would result in your immediate arrest.

Not sure where you get your news but I've never seen a headline that read "Protesters arrested for campaigning to do away with private property(or claim a good amount as public land from the hands of private citizens)." If you're counting occasions where someone used violence to further this goal, it's rather foolish to believe they were arrested for their goals when it is the violence itself that is the legal crime regardless of their political agenda.

Terrorism is inherent in any capitalist society.

Basis for this statement being what exactly?

All states are terroristic since the state is a tool by which one class oppresses another. The function of a state is to prevent class antagonisms from consuming society. There can only be a dictatorship of capital or a dictatorship of workers while the state exist since a dictatorship is simply the untrammeled authority of a particular class. The capitalist state oppresses the masses while a socialist state oppresses remnants of the capitalist class.

The idea all people have an equal opportunity under capitalism is a blatant farse. There is a systematic inequality between worker capitalist relations. The capitalist is not forced to open his factory and hire workers. He can even close down his factory and wait for better times. A worker is under economic compulsion to sell his labor at the given market rate or face starvation. First world workers have a greater degree of social mobility since they are beneficiaries of the global imperialist system built on the backs of third world workers. But even they have definite productive activities forced upon them. The very existence of cities indicates that some people are condemned to be definite city animals. By no means did I mean to imply that capitalism has Soicla mobility tantamount for feudalism. But it is obvious that under capitalism the amount of labor proformed is not necessarily conducive to success since in order to accumulate profit the worker must not be full compensated for his labour power. Under socialism the labor of one benefits the labor of all since a planned economy is solely for the benefit of the masses. People don't need to be given material incentives like in capitalist society since your labor will be a directly benefit you. There is no sharing of miseries as that evil man Winston Churchill claimed. Economic stagnation in the USSR was a result kruschevitebrevisionism I.e. A return to capitalism. People don't chose to live under capitalism. They can't chose how the market allocates money. Capitalism is a monster that no one controls and is perpetuated by private property.

People are arrested all the time for not respecting private property rights. If you steal from your employer if you feel cheated than you will be arrested. If your employer steals from you he just recieves a civil offense.

[Daburuetchi]

[region-tag=][/region-tag]

Please stick to debating the proposal. RL politics/philosophy gets discussed in the General forum.

I apologize I got off topic

[Vashtanaraada]

Yes, strike down the barriers imposed by the natives! Leave the region open to constant raids after we take our leave! Another stellar decision from the fine folks of the 'Security' Council - doing everything to decrease regional security.

Better hope the repeal passes quickly afterwards. Don't want TBR or anyone getting into a Founderless, passwordless, small region, now do we?

The original natives were secure, let them be secure again.

[Dollaria]

Yes, strike down the barriers imposed by the natives! Leave the region open to constant raids after we take our leave! Another stellar decision from the fine folks of the 'Security' Council - doing everything to decrease regional security.

Better hope the repeal passes quickly afterwards. Don't want TBR or anyone getting into a Founderless, passwordless, small region, now do we?

The original natives were secure, let them be secure again.

The original natives were probably sent to the gulag by your kind.

[40th reich]

I approve. The nutzis should be shown no quarter.

Its the communist dogs fault for being weak the nutiz should be congratulated for taking them over

[Captain Woodhouse]

You do realize that's not our current version?

Libertatem is like a weathervane in Tornado Alley. One minute they're so deep in bed with The Greater German Reich they could produce a love child together, the next minute they're making love to the UCR. Of course they changed their mind about that alliance too.

I have no love for the ICU, but they weren't doing anything to harm anyone. It is then consistent that I would support liberating them from people who do.

Minerva/Gorilla Warfare posting from Das Kommune on The International Communist Union's RMB during his tag raid on DK:

This was actually next on my raiding list, but whatever.
Glad to see the WA community is taking an action against you Nutzis. Save some of the fun for us.

http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8006106

[Coraxion]

@Woodie: I must sadly admit that your cohorts are currently better in keeping your puppet dumps and filth pits secured then your enemy, and totally regardless they know very well how to do that.

Political and Ideological things can make people blind enough for clicking few mouse clicks and login to the founder once per 60 days. You know.