[PASSED] Debris Prevention

[Bananaistan]

Ah, but that's two different things. You need a lot (or, at the moment, not a lot) of delegates to approve your proposal so it reaches quorum, necessitating a TG campaign. But those delegates can be of any size. Once it's at vote, though, it's the big vote delegates, and especially those who stack, who matter.

I see, that's fair enough.

Heh. When have you ever seen the GCR types care about the "RP element" of the WA? Bear in mind they're the same people who tried to end the RP element of the WA altogether.

Courting GCR votes is certainly not new. But the demand that players have to post on regional forums rather than the game forums, that GCR players will not deign to visit the game forums, and that votes will be more favourable to players who acquiesce to this unreasonable demand regardless of the actual resolution at stake, just adds to the pattern of voting not based on the content and merits of a resolution, but of completely irrelevant factors. Let's see, recent votes have been based on:

• the player submitting it
• whether disliked players support or oppose it
• whether it was submitted to the forum or not
• whether the draft was up for an arbitrary period of time before submission

Well those reasons you've listed were examples of individual voters on these forums, but I take your point re: the GCRs and courting their vote is only an RP enhancement if the player doing do does a little mental gymnastic exercise to bring it to same within their own head. Ofc this vote is the perfect example of a player acquiescing to the demand to post and campaign externally to these halls in order to gain favourable opinions. Is this completely unreasonable though?

[The Dark Star Republic]

Ofc this vote is the perfect example of a player acquiescing to the demand to post and campaign externally to these halls in order to gain favourable opinions. Is this completely unreasonable though?

Courting GCR votes has always been an option; PC was a big advocate of it and for a time it was very popular, probably influenced by some very close votes that GCR delegates decided - at that time, voting very late in the cycle was more the fashion than stacking. Personally, I think I have an account on every single GCR forum although most are dormant, and I've been "WA Advisor" or whatever all over the shop. The problem I have here is with the demanding tone of the approach:

As Delegate of The North Pacific, it is neither my obligation nor my duty to come here and express my concerns about a draft before it goes to vote.
...
If an author wants to get my vote, TNP's vote, then the burden is on them to come to TNP and lobby for it.

Yet for all that bluster, the "debate" on TNP's forums has seen just one rebuttal apiece and just two votes change - which was enough to swing the entire delegate bloc.

The NS forums are a public sphere, open to everyone; private regional off-sites are not. Compare that to the one consistent bit of advice that the moderators give WA players (the only thing on which they are consistent, in fact): that they should draft on the NS forums. It just all seems all rather pointless if they're not going to get anywhere doing that unless they also agree to go sit at the cool kids' table.

[Bears Armed]

Courting GCR votes is certainly not new. But the demand that players have to post on regional forums rather than the game forums, that GCR players will not deign to visit the game forums, and that votes will be more favourable to players who acquiesce to this unreasonable demand regardless of the actual resolution at stake, just adds to the pattern of voting not based on the content and merits of a resolution, but of completely irrelevant factors.

Not that that "demand" is paricularly new, neither, though. I can remember somebody from one of the larger regions telling me that I had to campaign there if I wanted many of that region's members to vote in favour for one or another of my earliest GA proposals...

[Applebania]

I personally feel that a delegate of a large region should base their vote on the "Among region X, there have been Y votes for and Z votes against" thing on the WA page. Far more democratic that way.

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

Really? Do you also think that all congressmen or MPs should poll their constituents before casting votes on anything? Usually when politicians rely on polling to make decisions it's considered a bad thing.

[Lexicor]

Really? Do you also think that all congressmen or MPs should poll their constituents before casting votes on anything? Usually when politicians rely on polling to make decisions it's considered a bad thing.

The average voter is why democracy is seen as a bad idea

[No TV and No Beer]

Speaking of democracy...

Texas Department of WA Affairs

On behalf of the Bestest Region in NationStates, Texas, we congratulate Defwa on their latest (expected) successful World Assembly legislative effort. However, we regret to inform this chamber that our Regional Delegate, NewTexas, has cast his 37 votes AGAINST this resolution, based on publicly expressed opinions. But it's not all bad news. Combined with the votes of all Texas WA members, Texas on the whole cast 6 votes for this resolution and 53 votes against. OK, so it's mostly bad news. Better luck next vote!

No TV and No Beer
Texas Secretary of WA Affairs

[Defwa]

Speaking of democracy...

(Image)
Texas Department of WA Affairs

On behalf of the Bestest Region in NationStates, Texas, we congratulate Defwa on their latest (expected) successful World Assembly legislative effort. However, we regret to inform this chamber that our Regional Delegate, NewTexas, has cast his 37 votes AGAINST this resolution, based on publicly expressed opinions. But it's not all bad news. Combined with the votes of all Texas WA members, Texas on the whole cast 6 votes for this resolution and 53 votes against. OK, so it's mostly bad news. Better luck next vote!

No TV and No Beer
Texas Secretary of WA Affairs

OOC: As an IRL resident of Texas, I expect nothing less (ಠ_ಠ)

In other news, Debris Prevention was passed 5,288 votes to 4,595.
But the victory is bittersweet as the follow up proposal has been removed. We will be requesting answers on the matter in the coming days to determine exactly what must be done. Those with criticisms should be happy to know, though, that anything they saw as missing in Debris Prevention might be added to Debris Removal during this new drafting process.
The celebration banquet has been moved into the Debris Removal chamber to encourage attendance.

[No TV and No Beer]

Speaking of democracy...

(Image)
Texas Department of WA Affairs

On behalf of the Bestest Region in NationStates, Texas, we congratulate Defwa on their latest (expected) successful World Assembly legislative effort. However, we regret to inform this chamber that our Regional Delegate, NewTexas, has cast his 37 votes AGAINST this resolution, based on publicly expressed opinions. But it's not all bad news. Combined with the votes of all Texas WA members, Texas on the whole cast 6 votes for this resolution and 53 votes against. OK, so it's mostly bad news. Better luck next vote!

No TV and No Beer
Texas Secretary of WA Affairs

OOC: As an IRL resident of Texas, I expect nothing less (ಠ_ಠ)

OOC: Yes, for as we all know, RL Texas is very pro-space debris.

Congratulations again.

[Goddess Relief Office]

Def, if you take any of that vomit inducing advice you were just given, be prepared to quit your job, and live your life hopping from forum to forum if you want to pass anything. That was literally the most disgusting thing I have ever read in my life, and I may now have eye cancer from it. If you don't bend down and kiss our boots, we have the ability to kill your resolution. What the fuck is that?

We have forums in the GAME for a reason you know? I guess that reason is not to use them. I am going to remember this shit, when Unicorn, or McMasterdonia decide to pass shit through the Security Council again. I think they should be shown the door, and told to draft their garbage on their own forums since they are so much better than drafting them here.

Better yet, why do we even bother voting on this shit at all? Why don't we just get together the GREAT ELEVEN, and let them decide? Oh wait we do. Hell lets even throw a moderator in there that has the ability to make rulings just for the fuck of it. (OH WAIT!!).

I miss the days of AD when he was delegate of 10K Islands, and carried that unprecedented 1000 votes. Never once did he stack against a resolution out of the gates just to kill it. He always waited a couple of days to see what his polls were saying on their forum. But hey I guess some people have a higher standard of morals than others....

We now return to your regularly scheduled failure, already in progress!

Whoops I see I got a mention My opposition to stacking is well known in 10KI and I've mentioned it a few times in the regional forums and 10KI RMB. That said, its not like I never done it before. I support stacking if regional interests are at stake.

There is no law for or against the practice in 10KI though, it's more or less up to individual delegates. Ananke is a big supporter of stacking, for example.

p/s: Congrats to Defwa on the region's passage! This was a close one!

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

Oh, I know! Ruining the game for everyone else! Fun times.
I never indulged myself, but I gotta admit, it was fun watching all the little peons impotently rage when Ananke did her thing and sank all those proposals they worked so hard on, just because she could!

[Flamels Stone]

It was so close, I hope no one makes a repeal.

[Frustrated Franciscans]

I personally feel that a delegate of a large region should base their vote on the "Among region X, there have been Y votes for and Z votes against" thing on the WA page. Far more democratic that way.

"Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion." Edmund Burke, Speech to the electors of Bristol. 3 Nov. 1774 Irish orator, philosopher, & politician (1729 - 1797)

[Ananke II]

Oh, I know! Ruining the game for everyone else! Fun times.
I never indulged myself, but I gotta admit, it was fun watching all the little peons impotently rage when Ananke did her thing and sank all those proposals they worked so hard on, just because she could!

What's the point of having so many endorsements if you don't make use of them? Besides before me it was Alsted everyone complained of.

Congrats on the resolution passing, Defwa.

[The Eternal Kawaii]

We're a day behind, so pardon our tardiness. Correct us if we're wrong -- this resolution was tanking by nearly 1,000 votes until Defwa made a pilgrimage to TNP's off-site forum and begged HMS Unicorn to change their vote?

[Defwa]

We're a day behind, so pardon our tardiness. Correct us if we're wrong -- this resolution was tanking by nearly 1,000 votes until Defwa made a pilgrimage to TNP's off-site forum and begged HMS Unicorn to change their vote?

More like 600.
However considering how little input was received from TNP, its debatable that this campaigning really made a difference

[HMS Unicorn]

I'll belatedly address some of the comments here. First of all, let's take a look at what I said and didn't say:

Things I said:

• I vote based on a poll that takes place in TNP's forum and where TNP WA nations can vote.
• Most of the voters in our forum poll do not watch the NS GA forum.
• GA authors should ask TNP members to vote for their proposals in TNP's forum, because that's where TNP members pay attention.

Things I didn't say:

• I (or rather, TNP) am not going to vote for any proposal whose author does not appear in TNP's forum.
• Authors should not post their drafts in the NS GA forum.
• Authors are going to get more feedback on their drafts in TNP's forum than in the NS GA forum.
• Authors are going to get better feedback on their drafts in TNP's forum than in the NS GA forum.

Moving on to DSR's remarks.

Courting GCR votes is certainly not new. But the demand that players have to post on regional forums rather than the game forums, that GCR players will not deign to visit the game forums, and that votes will be more favourable to players who acquiesce to this unreasonable demand regardless of the actual resolution at stake, just adds to the pattern of voting not based on the content and merits of a resolution, but of completely irrelevant factors.

As I just listed above, I never told anyone not to post on the game forums. I also made no demands on any authors; I only offered them advice on how to make their campaigning more effective.

GCR players have every right to choose which forums they will visit, and as the majority of them are gameplayers, they prefer to spend their time on other forums.

Finally, it is absoltely reasonable that GCR players' votes will be more favorable towards authors who campaign where those players pay attention. The same happens in every single vote that takes place anywhere in the world. Lobbyists campaign where the demographic they are interested in will see them.

Courting GCR votes has always been an option; PC was a big advocate of it and for a time it was very popular, probably influenced by some very close votes that GCR delegates decided - at that time, voting very late in the cycle was more the fashion than stacking. Personally, I think I have an account on every single GCR forum although most are dormant, and I've been "WA Advisor" or whatever all over the shop. The problem I have here is with the demanding tone of the approach:

As Delegate of The North Pacific, it is neither my obligation nor my duty to come here and express my concerns about a draft before it goes to vote.
...
If an author wants to get my vote, TNP's vote, then the burden is on them to come to TNP and lobby for it.

I'm really not sure what was wrong with my "tone". I was being pragmatic, highlighting the reality that TNPers are gameplayers, and tried to be helpful to authors in terms of how they can effectively lobby for their votes.

Yet for all that bluster, the "debate" on TNP's forums has seen just one rebuttal apiece and just two votes change - which was enough to swing the entire delegate bloc.

The NS forums are a public sphere, open to everyone; private regional off-sites are not. Compare that to the one consistent bit of advice that the moderators give WA players (the only thing on which they are consistent, in fact): that they should draft on the NS forums. It just all seems all rather pointless if they're not going to get anywhere doing that unless they also agree to go sit at the cool kids' table.

And yet again, did I ever say that authors will get better feedback in TNP than here? Did I say that authors should not post their drafts here? As I listed at the beginning of my post, I did none of these things, which makes your points basically irrelevant to the discussion.

The GA forum is absolutely the best place for authors to post their drafts. They will get quality feedback here and benefit from the collective wisdom of some of the most experienced authors in the game. However, not all players watch these forums, same as how not all players watch International Incidents or Gameplay. Given that those players still get to vote in the GA, GA authors need to reach out to them. One particularly large such bloc of players is in TNP, and an effective way of reaching out to them is by posting, in addition to here, in TNP's forum.

Finally, once more: TNP's forum, including the WA areas, are also public and open to everyone.

We're a day behind, so pardon our tardiness. Correct us if we're wrong -- this resolution was tanking by nearly 1,000 votes until Defwa made a pilgrimage to TNP's off-site forum and begged HMS Unicorn to change their vote?

More like 600.
However considering how little input was received from TNP, its debatable that this campaigning really made a difference

It was actually somewhat higher than 1000. I had about 485 endorsements at the moment I switched my vote, and when I did the resolution was still losing by about 50 votes. That's 1020.

The amount of feedback you received is not relevant. What is relevant is that your campaigning on our forum changed the tally of the forum poll (and that's without me actually changing my own forum vote). This resulted in me changing the in-game vote, which in turn resulted in your resolution passing. Looks like a huge difference to me.

Congratulations on passing your resolution.

[Defwa]

I'll belatedly address some of the comments here. First of all, let's take a look at what I said and didn't say:

Things I said:

• I vote based on a poll that takes place in TNP's forum and where TNP WA nations can vote.
• Most of the voters in our forum poll do not watch the NS GA forum.
• GA authors should ask TNP members to vote for their proposals in TNP's forum, because that's where TNP members pay attention.

The amount of feedback you received is not relevant. What is relevant is that your campaigning on our forum changed the tally of the forum poll (and that's without me actually changing my own forum vote). This resulted in me changing the in-game vote, which in turn resulted in your resolution passing. Looks like a huge difference to me.

Congratulations on passing your resolution.

Let me preface this by saying you are an excellent reviewer of proposals who would do the WA a service by coming to this place more often.

However the claim that going to the TNP forum actually helped the vote is debatable. Considering that no one except yourself asked any questions means that my posting there added nothing more to their understanding than having it up for vote.
The only actual native that did decide to speak declared that he was voting based on the stat effect and not in any way on the wording.
Its more likely that it was only a matter of time before more people voted as your off site forum is so quiet that it's a joke in other regions [ie- This place makes the north pacific look active].
The only other explanation that comes to mind is people were deeply concerned about the questions you asked but not enough actually ask by themselves at any point or they were so overcome with emotion at my appearance that they were compelled, with tears in their eyes to vote for.

What I'm trying to say is further data is necessary before we can safely conclude that it was your off site forum that passed this proposal or changed the inevitable

[Normlpeople]

Clover shook her head "This was a waste of the WA's time. There is no need for this, as it is impossible to send such trash to space to begin with. Congratulations on passing this however"

OOC: I won't get into it, and appreciate Unicorn's explanation, but the bottom line is the optics aren't good on this one. A major delegate changes his vote (a change that literally swings the resolution from a failure to a pass) after pimping his offsite forums , and an admission from the author that they followed through on it. What was said is irrelevant, the fact is, from an observers standpoint, passing legislation now requires lobbying at the various regional offsite forums in addition to the actual game. Such hoops and BS could very much deter new authors from submitting legislation. Again, just my viewpoint, and don't bother 'addressing' it, for I will not bother checking this thread again.

[Defwa]

Clover shook her head "This was a waste of the WA's time. There is no need for this, as it is impossible to send such trash to space to begin with. Congratulations on passing this however"

OOC: I won't get into it, and appreciate Unicorn's explanation, but the bottom line is the optics aren't good on this one. A major delegate changes his vote (a change that literally swings the resolution from a failure to a pass) after pimping his offsite forums , and an admission from the author that they followed through on it. What was said is irrelevant, the fact is, from an observers standpoint, passing legislation now requires lobbying at the various regional offsite forums in addition to the actual game. Such hoops and BS could very much deter new authors from submitting legislation. Again, just my viewpoint, and don't bother 'addressing' it, for I will not bother checking this thread again.

OOC: This isn't some paradigm shift. If nothing else, this well documented case is awful publicity for super sized delegates for their destructive voting tendencies and evidence towards the ineffectiveness of their forums as a medium of discussion.

[Araraukar]

OOC: Congrats for ass-kissing passing the proposal despite everything. You might want to ask mods to move this to the WA Archives, btw, as I found it floundering on page 3.