[PASSED] No Penalty Without Law

[Wineclaw]

The Collective votes AGAINST this resolution despite recognizing the fact that civil liberty violations relevant to the proposed resolution are occurring in other countries. However, it is not the Assembly's purpose to meddle in an individual country's legal system, but to improve international relations of member nations and promote prosperity on an international level.

The Collective believes this proposal is too invasive.

[Defwa]

The Collective votes AGAINST this resolution despite recognizing the fact that civil liberty violations relevant to the proposed resolution are occurring in other countries. However, it is not the Assembly's purpose to meddle in an individual country's legal system, but to improve international relations of member nations and promote prosperity on an international level.

The Collective believes this proposal is too invasive.

What other local crimes against humanity should the WA ignore?
Slavery? Genocide?

The WA quite frequently legislates on systems of oppression, as well it should.

[Sciongrad]

The Collective votes AGAINST this resolution despite recognizing the fact that civil liberty violations relevant to the proposed resolution are occurring in other countries. However, it is not the Assembly's purpose to meddle in an individual country's legal system, but to improve international relations of member nations and promote prosperity on an international level.

The Collective believes this proposal is too invasive.

"This idea that the WA's responsibility to establish justice and protect human rights ends at a nation's border under some vague notion of "national sovereignty" is not only intellectually indefensible, but actually repulsive. If you want to join an organization that condones genocide, as long as it's done within your borders, go join another group, because the WA isn't for you. And frankly, the fact that this resolution - a resolution on one of the most basic and generally agreed upon legal tenets in the civilized world - is almost failing is flabbergasting. I'm actually astonished. Because evidently, if the resolution permits unregulated access to abortion, then you have no problem voting for it by land slide margins, but God forbid something invasive like this is brought to vote, you pull out the tired "national sovereignty!" refrain. Bah!"

[Wineclaw]

The Collective believes that slavery and genocide are issues that are incomparable to an individual nation's lack of promulgation; two are crimes against humanity, the other is a basic lack of bureaucratic intelligence.

The Collective also publicly announces that it does not condone genocide, an issue that doesn't pertain to this particular proposal.

[Defwa]

The Collective believes that slavery and genocide are issues that are incomparable to an individual nation's lack of promulgation; two are crimes against humanity, the other is a basic lack of bureaucratic intelligence.

The Collective also publicly announces that it does not condone genocide, an issue that doesn't pertain to this particular proposal.

Are they incomparable? That's disputable. The gap that this proposal seeks to fill is one that can and has been used to legitimize genocide and slavery.
Public immediate executions and unexplained unending imprisonment (plus servitude) with no declared crime is an easy to utilize and hard to prove loophole.

A lack of 'bureaucratic intelligence' is not always a benign flaw or accidental.

[Wineclaw]

The Collective believes that slavery and genocide are issues that are incomparable to an individual nation's lack of promulgation; two are crimes against humanity, the other is a basic lack of bureaucratic intelligence.

The Collective also publicly announces that it does not condone genocide, an issue that doesn't pertain to this particular proposal.

Are they incomparable? That's disputable. The gap that this proposal seeks to fill is one that can and has been used to legitimize genocide and slavery.
Public immediate executions and unexplained unending imprisonment (plus servitude) with no declared crime is an easy to utilize and hard to prove loophole.

A lack of 'bureaucratic intelligence' is not always a benign flaw or accidental.

The Collective would like to bring attention to Defwa that this proposed resolution would not stop member nations from legitimizing slavery and genocide because the WA has already passed resolutions prohibiting those actions by member nations; see Resolutions #23 and #38. This proposal is also redundant in that aspect.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

Are they incomparable? That's disputable. The gap that this proposal seeks to fill is one that can and has been used to legitimize genocide and slavery.
Public immediate executions and unexplained unending imprisonment (plus servitude) with no declared crime is an easy to utilize and hard to prove loophole.

A lack of 'bureaucratic intelligence' is not always a benign flaw or accidental.

The Collective would like to bring attention to Defwa that this proposed resolution would not stop member nations from legitimizing slavery and genocide because the WA has already passed resolutions prohibiting those actions by member nations; see Resolutions #23 and #38. This proposal is also redundant in that aspect.

Say there's a minority enclave of Flipistani immigrants living in Bigtopia. Bigtopia, a WA member, is in legal compliance with the WA conventions against slavery and genocide. However, the resolution we're discussing here isn't in effect. And the Flipistani custom of greeting everyone they see by shaking their fists at them is very popular. So, police start to arrest ordinary, law-abiding Flipistani-Bigtopians for, say, "gesturing offensively at officers." But there isn't a written statute outlawing that behavior in Bigtopia, and nobody outside of the province of Liltopit (where 95% of Flipistani-Bigtopians live) has ever heard of any of this. The courts in Liltopit decide hey, these officers have a point / deserve the benefit of the doubt / are more powerful than the judges (maybe) / etc., so sure, we'll throw the book at 'em. And so the sentence should be, say, hard labor.

OK, these people are no dumber than any other group of people. Fist-shaking in public basically ceases. But it turns out plenty of other everyday behavior can get someone arrested, simply because the officers and the courts have full discretion, without any input from the legislature, over what kinds of things are punishable by the legal system.

Now you have a situation where a minority group is the systematic victim of unjust persecution by the criminal justice system, and a de facto violation of GAR #23 (GAR #38 if the death penalty is very common), all while remaining carefully, technically, within the bounds of WA law. That is why slavery and genocide are relevant to this discussion (if only tangentially) - because secret or nonexistent laws are the most common and most insidious way to oppress people.

This resolution will close that loophole, which exists for every piece of international law as long as it's not required that nations publish the laws they intend to enforce.

[Sciongrad]

For: 5,386. Against: 5,393.

These tight votes physically wound me.

[Schalovaihoff]

Not sure what this repeal is saying can someone explain the basic underline is is it saying that penalty of something should only happen if crime is committed or when someone is thought of doing a crime

[Christian Democrats]

Not sure what this repeal is saying can someone explain the basic underline is is it saying that penalty of something should only happen if crime is committed or when someone is thought of doing a crime

This proposal nitpicks how justice systems get to their judgments while having no effect on anything substantive.

It doesn't try to establish any new crimes (e.g., genocide) nor does it try to establish any new rights (e.g., freedom of speech).

[Sciongrad]

Not sure what this repeal is saying can someone explain the basic underline is is it saying that penalty of something should only happen if crime is committed or when someone is thought of doing a crime

This proposal nitpicks how justice systems get to their judgments while having no effect on anything substantive.

It doesn't try to establish any new crimes (e.g., genocide) nor does it try to establish any new rights (e.g., freedom of speech).

"Thank you for that very misleading piece of misinformation. The only way this resolution could possibly be more inclusive of different legal systems would be if it permitted developing and enforcing laws on the spot.

To answer the question of the honorable ambassador of Schalovaihoff: this resolution would require that for a punishment to be meted out, there must be some basis in law to permit it. For example, if libel wasn't illegal, then an individual couldn't be punished for printing libellous material, or if an individual was sick with a very contagious disease, a law would need to be in place that permitted detention based on quarantine."

[Christian Democrats]

This proposal nitpicks how justice systems get to their judgments while having no effect on anything substantive.

It doesn't try to establish any new crimes (e.g., genocide) nor does it try to establish any new rights (e.g., freedom of speech).

Thank you for that very misleading piece of misinformation. The only way this resolution could possibly be more inclusive of different legal systems would be if it permitted developing and enforcing laws on the spot.

If you wander onto aboriginal lands and steal from one of the natives, you should be punished whether or not the tribe has statutes, case law, or formal regulations that have been written down and made publicly available.

[Sciongrad]

Thank you for that very misleading piece of misinformation. The only way this resolution could possibly be more inclusive of different legal systems would be if it permitted developing and enforcing laws on the spot.

If you wander onto aboriginal lands and steal from one of the natives, you should be punished whether or not the tribe has statutes, case law, or formal regulations that have been written down and made publicly available.

"Luckily, the requirements of this resolution aren't as strict as the scenario you described. You're reading phrases like "precedent" and translating it into "case law" when that is not what the clause says. Tribal legal systems that use decision making by elders as the basis of law functions largely on precedent - that is, theft is traditionally punished in the tribe, and therefore a ruling against theft would be based on that precedent. On the other hand, legal traditions where rulings in disputes have no basis in anything consistent or predictable are inherently contrary to nulla poena sine lege. I have no bias against non-western legal traditions, despite your relentless accusation, but I don't plan on accommodating for systems that aren't consistent with the underlying principle that guides this resolution."

[Christian Democrats]

Tribal legal systems that use decision making by elders as the basis of law functions largely on precedent

Largely on "precedent" (if you wish to call customary law that). But they also employ analogical reasoning to determine new crimes when new circumstances arise. Furthermore, many semi-autonomous tribes that are located within member states certainly cannot meet the public promulgation provision of this proposal, especially if their legal systems are mostly or entirely oral.

[Ardchoilleans]

Furthermore, many semi-autonomous tribes that are located within member states certainly cannot meet the public promulgation provision of this proposal, especially if their legal systems are mostly or entirely oral.

I don't quite get this argument.

If they're fully autonomous then they can decide whether or not they're WA states. If they're not, no problem.

If they are, then can't they "publicly promulgate" in whatever way their other laws, traditions or customs have been promulgated? It doesn't matter whether it's sending the Duckspeaker around with the message feather, speaking it aloud from Judgment Rock, adding it to the Teaching Songs, making up a new Dance of Learning, turning it into a lullaby, nursery rhyme or game chant, including it in the initiation ritual, calling a meeting of the elders, whatever: it's still promulgation.

If they're not fully autonomous, and the nation in which they're an enclave is a WA member, then wouldn't that nation have to "promulgate" to all its inhabitants, whether they're in cantons/enclosures/protectorates/reserves/tribal lands or not? Depending on the degree of autonomy, that could range from the enclosing government doing it for them, through the government helping them do it for themselves, to doing it totally without help in whatever way they find appropriate.

[Losthaven]

We voted "for" but we do think there's some merit to the position that the mere promulgation of laws is not a human right. In the case of a psychotic dictatorship, it seems odd to say that people's civil liberties are improved simply because the unjust laws they live under are publically disseminated.

[Bears Armed Mission]

We voted "for" but we do think there's some merit to the position that the mere promulgation of laws is not a human right. In the case of a psychotic dictatorship, it seems odd to say that people's civil liberties are improved simply because the unjust laws they live under are publically disseminated.

Remember that the WA has already guaranteed a right to emigrate, too... and if the laws under which such a regime operates are actually promulgated then people currently living within its jurisdiction will have more facts on which to decide about possibly taking that option.

We support, and have voted for, this proposal.

[The Lanthanides]

I voted for mostly because of people like Omigodtheykilledkenny and his Creative Solutions Agency. It finds loopholes in WA resolutions that enable Kenny to continue in his mad rage unhindered. This would close a bazillion loopholes and possibly make a repeal of his condemnation more substantive.

[The Federal Republic of Caltenoth]

As the official World Assembly Representative of my nation, I have been instructed by the ministry of foreign affairs to vote for this resolution. I have been told of the Imperial Senate taking merely minutes on this decision, for Caltenoth already fits this resolutions requirements and the introduction of a corresponding resolution in the World Assembly would only strenghten our legal system. My Emperor also wishes to express his congratulations to the author of this important piece of legislature for the brilliance with which it is written and the good coverage of all aspects regarding the issue at hand. The Federal Republic of Caltenoth admires this resolution and hopes for it to pass, in the impression that it will greatly help the cause of justice and democracy in the world.

The respected Ambassador of Sciongrad has my personal support and I wish him the best of luck.

- Magnus Decimus, Ambassador of the Empire of the Federal Republic of Caltenoth

[Zandalari]

Sciongrad, you have the vote of both Zandalari and the United Socialist Nations of Zandalari. This proposal, despite it somewhat encroaching on nation sovereignty, it actually enhances it; well done. I do hope that this succeeds.

[Christian Democrats]

It doesn't matter whether it's sending the Duckspeaker around with the message feather, speaking it aloud from Judgment Rock, adding it to the Teaching Songs, making up a new Dance of Learning, turning it into a lullaby, nursery rhyme or game chant, including it in the initiation ritual, calling a meeting of the elders, whatever: it's still promulgation.

First, it would be quite burdensome for people to run from village to village giving the legal reasoning for each and every decision that a council of elders reaches, from disturbing the peace to stealing a chicken to homicide.

Second, even if we assume that public promulgation is doable, this proposal would apply retroactively, so the aboriginal nation would have to cancel numerous previous decisions.

In highly developed societies, laws are hardly promulgated. How much more burdensome to put this requirement on agricultural and nomadic communities, be they independent member states or political subdivisions within member states?

[The New Fandom Republic]

Member states will probably have the responsibility to make a solution for those subdivisions when it comes to this proposal.

[Defwa]

It doesn't matter whether it's sending the Duckspeaker around with the message feather, speaking it aloud from Judgment Rock, adding it to the Teaching Songs, making up a new Dance of Learning, turning it into a lullaby, nursery rhyme or game chant, including it in the initiation ritual, calling a meeting of the elders, whatever: it's still promulgation.

First, it would be quite burdensome for people to run from village to village giving the legal reasoning for each and every decision that a council of elders reaches, from disturbing the peace to stealing a chicken to homicide.

Second, even if we assume that public promulgation is doable, this proposal would apply retroactively, so the aboriginal nation would have to cancel numerous previous decisions.

In highly developed societies, laws are hardly promulgated. How much more burdensome to put this requirement on agricultural and nomadic communities, be they independent member states or political subdivisions within member states?

I feel like you've taken a position out of spite or something and are now clinging to poorly constructed devils advocacy because you're too scared to backtrack.

Reasoning for every legal decision is not necessary- they must only be distributed should the decision aid in preventing others from violating the law such as in areas where there is ambiguity in the law. Bill of the Clouds guilty verdict after a drunken party does not need promulgation unless it is decided that he's created some new kind of loud noise that is fundamentally different. Claire daughter of the chicken lover's guilty verdict for chicken kidnapping need only be declared if she stole the chicken's heart while leaving the chicken in it's cage.
Otherwise, via not "both practical and necessary in preventing their inhabitants from committing punishable actions" then it's not needed.

This is not some law calling for infinite release of all information- only that which is relevant to crime.

In highly developed societies, laws are easily promulgated. I have access to all Defwaen laws through my mobile phone- and I do not even need to use any government services to do so. Transdimensional google searches fill all such needs and I have thus been given every opportunity to learn about laws.
Less developed nations can easily comply by keeping a loose leaf binder and switch out the pages when needed. Societies with no concept of literacy probably can't join the WA to begin with. There is frankly no excuse.

[Kaboomlandia]

This could be one of the closest votes of all time. Currently tied as I write this.

[Sciongrad]

This could be one of the closest votes of all time. Currently tied as I write this.

OOC: I wish this was the first time this has happened with one of my resolutions, but "Rights of Neutral States" was almost equally close. I've never seen a resolution that has gone from succeeding to failing and back so many times though.