[PASSED] Wetland Protection Protocol

[Separatist Peoples]

Oh, there are better ways to harm the wetlands than bombs. Besides, the people of Eldrahar are waging a revolution against the leftists and large government right now, so they reject adding more to what they are currently fighting against. Also, being one of the most scientifically advanced nations, we can come up with plenty of ways to exact revenge on those who try and enforce their ways on us. Chemical warfare will be much more effective than just bombing countries back to the stone ages.

"Riiight..."

[Routcher]

So, if a nation has no wetlands, they must either create wetlands or purchase credits? AGAINST

[Separatist Peoples]

So, if a nation has no wetlands, they must either create wetlands or purchase credits? AGAINST

"What kind of asshole would write an environmental law that protects the environment, anyway? We should lynch that asshole!"

[FreethinkingAnarchists ResidingWherever]

Since we are *cough* very serious about enforcing WA legislation... *giggles*...

And we won't allow for taxes to be created, even for such a useful purpose...

*dramatic pause*

*whispers* time to destroy the wetlands before this gets passed

[Imperial Polk County]

Since we are *cough* very serious about enforcing WA legislation... *giggles*...

And we won't allow for taxes to be created, even for such a useful purpose...

*dramatic pause*

*whispers* time to destroy the wetlands before this gets passed

Drane snorts. "That's the silliest thing I've heard all week, and I spent a fair bit of yesterday listening to my granddaughter explain her favorite cartoon show. You don't want to spend some money preserving wetlands so you're going to go through the ridiculous expense of destroying them? You have fun with that. And while I have your attention, can you please point out to me which clause mandates new taxes?"

[Tarsonis]

So, if a nation has no wetlands, they must either create wetlands or purchase credits? AGAINST

I'm pretty sure if there are no wetlands, this doesn't really apply to you...

[Separatist Peoples]

Since we are *cough* very serious about enforcing WA legislation... *giggles*...

And we won't allow for taxes to be created, even for such a useful purpose...

*dramatic pause*

*whispers* time to destroy the wetlands before this gets passed

"That would be really dumb, ambassador. If you destroy all the wetlands, then the value of new or existing quality wetlands necessarily goes up and the price of credits corresponds. You'd be doing yourself out of money in the long run.

"Besides, its hardly as though this would bankrupt a nation. Most of the time, it is more expensive to deliberately build in a swamp or wetland. Even if you do, your actual impact is generally relatively small, as you rarely have buildings with footprints of acres upon acres."

OOC: For reference, the cost of a US credit in the similar situation is about $10k/acre. Most buildings aren't a full acre in size for permenant impact, and the amount is reduced by the percentage of an acre that impacts it. A 10 mile pipeline that runs through a linear half mile of wetland, creating a permanent impact of only about three yards in width would cost a hair over $4,000. On a project that costs millions of dollars, that's a drop in the bucket.

Lets take a residential building of, say, 2,500 square feet in permanent footprint. Lets say it's all in a wetland. That's $573. This is not the kind of expense people pretend it is.

Last, lets take a Walmart, which has an average of 104,000 square feet in size. If you build that all in a wetland in the US, you're looking at credits worth $23,000. Your survey for a project that size probably costs more. Relax, people.

[Eldrahar]

The point is, you're still wanting to charge nations for what they do construction wise in their own borders. Keep your greedy, grubby little hands and your bureaucrats out of my nation!

[Imperium Anglorum]

MADSONS: But if we start relaxing, we can't spew reality-defying ideological bullshit everywhere!

[Separatist Peoples]

The point is, you're still wanting to charge nations for what they do construction wise in their own borders. Keep your greedy, grubby little hands and your bureaucrats out of my nation!

"No."

[Dragonslinding WA Mission]

Since we are *cough* very serious about enforcing WA legislation... *giggles*...

And we won't allow for taxes to be created, even for such a useful purpose...

*dramatic pause*

*whispers* time to destroy the wetlands before this gets passed

"That would be really dumb, ambassador. If you destroy all the wetlands, then the value of new or existing quality wetlands necessarily goes up and the price of credits corresponds. You'd be doing yourself out of money in the long run.

"Besides, its hardly as though this would bankrupt a nation. Most of the time, it is more expensive to deliberately build in a swamp or wetland. Even if you do, your actual impact is generally relatively small, as you rarely have buildings with footprints of acres upon acres."

News Release from Dragonslund: Following a new edict sealed by his Royal Majesty all sewers, and waste water discharge areas have been declared wetlands.

[Eldrahar]

The point is, you're still wanting to charge nations for what they do construction wise in their own borders. Keep your greedy, grubby little hands and your bureaucrats out of my nation!

"No."

Well, any attempts to effectively enforce this, since the WA isn't allowed to use military force, would be considered an act of war. So I welcome you try. Any goons you send will be met by the military at the borders.

[Separatist Peoples]

"No."

Well, any attempts to effectively enforce this, since the WA isn't allowed to use military force, would be considered an act of war. So I welcome you try. Any goons you send will be met by the military at the borders.

"Right, you've already established that your nation is one of oathbreakers and liars, since you're willing to violate GAR#2. Since you've now proven that your government cannot be trusted or relied upon, why should I care about your input in this discussion?"

OOC: Outright noncompliance is godmodding in the GA.
From the WA tab:

The WA is the world's governing body. Membership is voluntary, but all member nations must abide by legislation it passes.

From the FAQ

The World Assembly is the world's governing body. It's your chance to mold the world to your vision, by voting for resolutions you like and scuttling the rest. However, it's a double-edged sword, because your nation will be affected by any resolutions that pass. (Unfortunately you can't obey the resolutions you like and ignore the rest.) In other words, it's a hot-bed of political intrigue and double-dealing.

Emphasis added.

[Eldrahar]

Yes, yes, so all government organizations always post. However, enforcing them is extremely difficult, and often impossible.

OOC: Just look at the UN. A rather useless organization that only truly works with those nations that agree with the majority vote.

[Separatist Peoples]

Yes, yes, so all government organizations always post. However, enforcing them is extremely difficult, and often impossible.

"The WA relies on the good faith efforts of members. Violation of such proves that you're incapable of adhering to your word. Congratulations, ambassador, Boy Scouts are more trustworthy than the government of Eldrahar. Since we've definitively established that you've no intention of complying in good faith, why are you still ranting?"

OOC: Just look at the UN. A rather useless organization that only truly works with those nations that agree with the majority vote.

OOC: The WA is not the UN, fortunately. I've yet to see any evidence on the FAQs or game-generated WA information that supports the position that noncompliance is permissible. Fortunately for you, this IC construction of compliance need only extend within the GA forum. It doesn't exist elsewhere, and so, if you're truly upset at the way the GA works, you can always not participate. I promise you, you will not be missed.

Also...

Yes, yes, so all government organizations always post. However, enforcing them is extremely difficult, and often impossible.

I don't think you understand how the IC/OOC separation works.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

Yes, yes, so all government organizations always post. However, enforcing them is extremely difficult, and often impossible.

OOC: Just look at the UN. A rather useless organization that only truly works with those nations that agree with the majority vote.

OOC: if you want to be taken seriously (read: not completely ignored) here, you'll get the point that overt non-compliance is godmoding in RP terms, and come up with more subtle and interesting ways to escape the worst of what the law requires.

[Separatist Peoples]

Yes, yes, so all government organizations always post. However, enforcing them is extremely difficult, and often impossible.

OOC: Just look at the UN. A rather useless organization that only truly works with those nations that agree with the majority vote.

OOC: if you want to be taken seriously (read: not completely ignored) here, you'll get the point that overt non-compliance is godmoding in RP terms, and come up with more subtle and interesting ways to escape the worst of what the law requires.

OOC: It just ain't a Separatist Peoples At-Vote thread without an OOC argument on compliance and enforcement.

[Dragonslinding WA Mission]

OOC: I could be wrong but it seems like every at vote thread has something about enforcement and compliance, creative and otherwise.

[Tarsonis]

OOC: I could be wrong but it seems like every at vote thread has something about enforcement and compliance, creative and otherwise.

OOC: Understandably, the size limits of the game play, restrict resolutions to being very general in nature. Much as SP would probably love, there simply isn't room to type out a thousand plus page resolution to address all the possible conditions and challenges a resolution would have. Which means virtually every resolution is open to extremely creative compliance ICly. For example: Tarsonis hasn't complied with forcing its people to be vaccinated by requiring a disease to have an R-naught rating(how fast a disease spreads based off secondary infections) of "30+" before meeting the criteria laid down by Article 1 of GAR 412. To put into perspective of how absurdly high that number is: the strain of influenza that caused the Flu Pandemic in 1918 had a R-naught rating of 2-3, HIV is 2-5, Smallpox is 5-7, while Measles currently has a R-naught rating of "12-18". And this scale uses the bubonic plague as a baseline (R-1), which killed roughly a third of the population of Europe....

[Dragonslinding WA Mission]

OOC: I could be wrong but it seems like every at vote thread has something about enforcement and compliance, creative and otherwise.

OOC: Understandably, the size limits of the game play, restrict resolutions to being very general in nature. Much as SP would probably love, there simply isn't room to type out a thousand plus page resolution to address all the possible conditions and challenges a resolution would have. Which means virtually every resolution is open to extremely creative compliance ICly. For example: Tarsonis hasn't complied with forcing its people to be vaccinated by requiring a disease to have an R-naught rating(how fast a disease spreads based off secondary infections) of "30+" before meeting the criteria laid down by Article 1 of GAR 412. To put into perspective of how absurdly high that number is: the strain of influenza that caused the Flu Pandemic in 1918 had a R-naught rating of 2-3, HIV is 2-5, Smallpox is 5-7, while Measles currently has a R-naught rating of "12-18". And this scale uses the bubonic plague as a baseline (R-1), which killed roughly a third of the population of Europe....

OOC: Good policy. I probably should go through existing WA resolutions and write up all the ways Dragonslund creatively complies, but it would likely make a long fact book.

[Drescauld]

Drake Red sits up in his seat and speaks into a microphone. “The people of the Counsel and I have come to the agreement to vote for this resolution. The environment needs to be protected, not matter the cost. Otherwise we may kill off entire breeds of plants and animals.”

[Shwe Tu Colony]

OOC: Is it allowed for a fantasy-tech nation like me to speak on this & how magic is used on these topics?

"Important question," began Ka'tyu, "Will this protocol affect construction deep below the wetlands themselves? So far, us Parfuhmerians have encountered no impact on the wetlands while building our underground city, so we're deep enough to not affect it. We've even had Psytrine mages perform a detailed, month-long study into our effects. Overall, the only issue we've had with our wetlands is hunting."

[Kaldrassil]

Obviously for.

[FreethinkingAnarchists ResidingWherever]

We are pleased to report that, after some careful negotiations with the individuals who owned wetland properties within FARW, we have sold all of our remaining wetlands to foreign interests. All of the funds raised in the sale will be used to offset the rather marginal loss to the original property owners, with any profits committed to benefit our private militias in case of future zombie attacks or Statist catastrophes in neighboring nations. Now we have no concern with this resolution. We will of course maintain our "against" vote out of principle, however we are delighted that FARW will be able to "enforce" this proposal in the somewhat inevitable event that it passes.

In solidarity,
FreethinkingAnarchists ResidingWherever

[Separatist Peoples]

We are pleased to report that, after some careful negotiations with the individuals who owned wetland properties within FARW, we have sold all of our remaining wetlands to foreign interests. All of the funds raised in the sale will be used to offset the rather marginal loss to the original property owners, with any profits committed to benefit our private militias in case of future zombie attacks or Statist catastrophes in neighboring nations. Now we have no concern with this resolution. We will of course maintain our "against" vote out of principle, however we are delighted that FARW will be able to "enforce" this proposal in the somewhat inevitable event that it passes.

In solidarity,
FreethinkingAnarchists ResidingWherever

"Hope your people didn't like fishing. Or boating. Or having access to surface freshwater. Because you sold about every riverbank and pond." Bell rolled his eyes contemptuously at the Anarchist ambassador.