[PASSED] LIBERATE HOGWARTS

[Elke and Elba]

Let's break this argument down, because I think we will find it is a fallacious one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moralistic_fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_pity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_motive

Just a few fallacies you've commited

Pretty sure you've just committed a fallacy over here - an ad hominem guilt by association/poisoning the well by trying to discredit him before he makes his arguments.

[Sedgistan]

Discuss the proposal, please.

[The Rhomaion]

Natives were openly insulted by Le Petit Prince before he was deleted, and the WFE itself made a mockery of Hogwarts and celebrated the invasion and subsequent grief.

It isn't your home if someone else is in charge, deriding you and robbing you of your dignity.

The actions of LWU post-refound, whether or not that includes being nice or nasty to the ex-natives, does not affect their claim to ownership of the region or the nativity of its current residents.

As a car driver, you have ownership documents that prove your ownership and entitle you to continued ownership of that car.

This is not the case with regions. Once you lose a region, you no longer control it. It is no longer yours. You have nothing that gives you inherent entitlement to a region that you do not control beyond an emotionalist concept of "home" that is not a reality. The same applies to natives. You cease to be a native of a region if that region is refounded by another group, because you have nothing tying you to that region beyond an emotional connection.

You're assuming the existence of rights (to a region) that simply don't exist once you lose it, and then attempting to construct an argument around those non-existent rights.

Let's break this argument down, because I think we will find it is a fallacious one.

You say when you own a car you have a title, but such a thing doesn't exist to a region, or it only does so long as you have ties to the founder. If you lose your car then, you still have a claim to it by virtue of your title, but when your region gets refounded, your claim is lost.

Let me ask you this then, if someone tears up your title while they are stealing your car, is that car now their own? You attempt to inject a since of realism/legalism into the debate, when Liberations are really about normative proposals.

The analogy still works because I'd imagine that insurance companies, etc. all have further proofs of purchase/ownership. Whereas there is no documentary ownership whatsoever in a region. Possession is not nine-tenths, but ten tenths of the law in NS; it is the Founder of a region (or, in a founderless region, the WA Delegate) who decides who has a right to enter the region and who the natives are.

Not so much about what is, but instead what should and ought to be. We say we ought not to allow a region to be invaded, purged, and then refounded. We say we ought not to treat natives that way. We say we would not like it if such a thing happened to our own region, our own home. The idea of unfounded emotionalism also has no bearing. I think you will find that many instances of emotion are those of a moral manifestation, and in any case, it isn't emotionalism but a sense of normative ethics that is at play here. Ethical theories are based on reason, colored by emotion, perhaps, but not defined by them. Even if you are a skeptic and believe all ethical theory is simply self-interest masquerading as altruism, one understands even in that case, a reason behind it, even if it lacks a pristine sense of normative duties.

You later a mention a right of conquest. What is this based on? Most ethical theories reject such a kind of might is right idea, and your very endorsement of car titles on the one hand and the right of conquest on the other are not compatible, which is why we say that the only people who support raiders are those who have never been raided. You think this is fine, until it happens to you. And then you realize that it shouldn't happen, because it isn't a very nice thing to do, and there is no reason behind it. One an emotional and rational level, it doesn't work once you remove yourself from your parochial view and consider the bigger picture.

I've lost a home region to invaders before. That doesn't make me consider raiding wrong.

You're right, right of conquest doesn't exist in NS as a genuine legal concept. Right of ownership, however, does, and it is all that matters. You are a native of a region if the Founder (or, in a founderless region, the Delegate) says you are. If they say you're not, you're not. It's that simple.

The right of conquest is nothing more than the law of the jungle, and in the jungle there are no such things as Security Council resolutions. The Security Council body exists to intercede in such cases, as an outside force, to prevent oppression. That is what a liberation proposal was designed to do, and that is what it does here in Hogwarts.

This proposal does not prevent oppression in any way, shape or form.

You're not saving anyone's region. Hogwarts is not currently being raided, or destroyed. This region has already been refounded. All you're doing is voting to throw LWU out of a region that's theirs by right of conquest, because they refounded it; this is an egregious manipulation of the idea of a "Liberation" proposal.

This is simply not true, and I think you now it. First of all, they are in the process of refounding it again, so it is in a sense currently being raided, as it is filled with occupying invaders against the will of the true natives. The right of conquest should not be recognized by the Security Council, as was explained earlier. If people took your nihilistic view, then no liberation would ever be passed. Again, it isn't a manipulation, because there are still true natives around that can be helped by this liberation proposal, nothing is being manipulated or used as a weapon. Your contention that Lone Wolves United owns the region by a right of conquest is not one this body should respect, as it would do nothing but sanction invasions and bullying, and would validate the Lone Wolves United occupation.

The idea that Hogwarts is currently being invaded is ridiculous beyond belief. The natives of the currently-existing Hogwarts have invited in outsiders to help them refound, with their consent. That is not an invasion, that is external assistance.

Likewise your harping on about "true natives" makes no sense, because the only "true natives" are those whom Georgia Wolf says are natives. Unless you seriously mean to tell me that it's not up to the Founder of a region (or, in a founderless region, a Delegate not imposed on natives by external forces) to determine who is and isn't a native, in which case you're advancing a tyrannical position that runs contrary to basic principles of regional sovereignty.

If your entire argument is that this should be passed because it allowed ex-natives who couldn't refound their old region to get a meaningless parting shot in on the region that raided them, out of something not unlike pointless vindictiveness, then it's not really worth voting in this thing's favour.

It isn't about vindictiveness, like I said before it is about hope. The hope that the true natives can freely enter their home without being locked out of it by the occupiers, Lone Wolves United, who clearly aim to refound and exert control over the region that is not their own once again.

Might is not right.

The true natives of Hogwarts are those currently present. The "true natives" you're talking about are natives of an iteration of Hogwarts that no longer exists; as such, they have no right to recognition in the current iteration of Hogwarts, because the WA Delegate of Hogwarts, who was elected with the natives' (of this iteration of Hogwarts) consent and approval, does not consider the natives of the previous iteration to be natives of this one.

Might does not inherently make right, but in NS, it is the Founder that determines ownership and nativity; in a region (like Hogwarts) which is founderless, it is a Delegate who is either elected by the residents of the region or else brought in by external allies with those residents' consent who determines nativity. The concept of "true natives" that you're so insistent on is a fiction. They're natives to something which doesn't exist, not the current iteration of Hogwarts. Thus this proposal is not worthwhile or something I could support, because it's predicated upon a false and subjective notion of "true nativity".

[Applebania]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moralistic_fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_pity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_motive

Just a few fallacies you've commited

Pretty sure you've just committed a fallacy over here - an ad hominem guilt by association/poisoning the well by trying to discredit him before he makes his arguments.

Also, the Fallacy Falllacy.

[SFBA Campinia]

Btw can Evil Wolf please point me at the so called Fendas that are supposedly arguing for this resolution? Because I must have missed them...

[The space station of felindia]

Not sure but I belive Through The Breach seems to be one.

[D7L]

Frist judging a nation as a mark of experience fails, when you take into account the amount of nations, and regions any member can hold/take part in. That`s not the point though...

I don't mean to be rude, but I'm ROFL at your ignorance of his statement about how he could be wrong about your experience, backwards grammar, and comma splices. Not to mention the missing punctuation and use of graves as apostrophes. Also, not sure if this was a typo, but it's "condone", not "condon."

[Oligarchy-governed East Soviet Union]

First of all, I would like to say that I deeply apologize to Felindia. I really didn't look hard enough into your argument. I respect you. I hope you can understand, however, that what I wrote was not so much meant to jab at you as it was to make a point about the resolution to everyone here.

---

Not really, because it would be a ridiculous waste of the Security Council's time, would be using the Security Council to attack natives (not really what it's for), and wouldn't achieve anything meaningful.

If your entire argument is that this should be passed because it allowed ex-natives who couldn't refound their old region to get a meaningless parting shot in on the region that raided them, out of something not unlike pointless vindictiveness, then it's not really worth voting in this thing's favour.

Secondly, this resolution isn't attacking natives. It may not achieve anything meaningful, but this is an online simulation of the real world. Nothing that happens is very meaningful. The most meaningful thing on here is communicating and discussing with other people, like we are now. Whether they become your friends or your enemies. That's where the most interesting and important stuff occurs -- and that's what happens in regions.

If your entire argument is that this shouldn't be passed because it's meaningless and won't actually make a difference, then why vote on it at all? If this resolution won't make a difference, why not just spare us and not coat the forum thread with arguments on why it doesn't matter?

You have a really bad argument sugarcoated with fancy words and phrasings like "not unlike vindictiveness", and "ridiculous waste of the Security Council's time", and I can't imagine that people will actually buy it. If they did, I'd be greatly disturbed because clearly they're just listening to what you say and not what you mean.

Finally, in the style of this D7L just above me on the forum:

Are you aware that your two-and-a-half line long final paragraph was one giant comma-spliced sentence!?

[D7L]

Finally, in the style of this D7L just above me on the forum:

Are you aware that your two-and-a-half line long final paragraph was one giant comma-spliced sentence!?

Hey!

[Defendingg]

Votes For: 5,079 (49%)

Votes Against: 5,326 (51%)

6 hours left

Now that this is more neck and neck, I hope that some delegates will change their votes in order to give Hogwarts back to the true natives, before it is destroyed forever.

246 vote margin

(2,431) individual WA member nations for vs (2,295) individual WA member nations against

True delegate count:

306 delegates for

217 delegates against

[Defendingg]

margin down to 119 votes...

[Evil Wolf]

I hope that some delegates will change their votes in order to give Hogwarts back to the true natives, before it is destroyed forever.

Ah yes, the alleged "true natives", none of which can be found nor named. The region is not being "destroyed forever" it is being refounded to make sure people like Defendingg don't claim it as a trophy for themselves.

Btw can Evil Wolf please point me at the so called Fendas that are supposedly arguing for this resolution? Because I must have missed them...

You must not have been looking very closely then. Defendingg, above, is a prefect example.

[Defendingg]

I hope that some delegates will change their votes in order to give Hogwarts back to the true natives, before it is destroyed forever.

Ah yes, the alleged "true natives", none of which can be found nor named. The region is not being "destroyed forever" it is being refounded to make sure people like Defendingg don't claim it as a trophy for themselves.

So you admit that you are refounding it? Good to know.

edit: Votes For: 5,299 (50%)

Votes Against: 5,238 (50%)

the vote just flipped

[Evil Wolf]

We are the natives of Hogwarts, if we don't try to refound Fendas like you would try to take, and are trying to take, the region from us.

Defendingg, is it not true that your own intention would be to try and refound the region for so called "true natives", whoever they are, as to keep the region out of our rightful hands?

Edit:

Votes For: 5,215 (49%)

Votes Against: 5,322 (51%)

It flipped back.

[Defendingg]

We are the natives of Hogwarts, if we don't try to refound Fendas like you would try to take, and are trying to take, the region from us.

Defendingg, is it not true that your own intention would be to try and refound the region for so called "true natives", whoever they are, as to keep the region out of our rightful hands?

my only intention right now is to prove that you do in fact want to refound the region. You just proved it for me, good job

[Evil Wolf]

You're dodging my question because you don't want to admit what I'm saying is true.

[Defendingg]

You're dodging my question because you don't want to admit what I'm saying is true.

It's not dodging the question. The answer to your question is no. My only intention right now is to make it so your attempting to refound the region will be made much more difficult.

[Evil Wolf]

But your intentions later will be to invade the region and take it for the "true natives". You've said as much here.

[Defendingg]

But your intentions later will be to liberate the region and take it for the "true natives". You've said as much here.

Fixed it for you.

[Zaolat]

But your intentions later will be to liberate the region and take it for the "true natives". You've said as much here.

Fixed it for you.

That's not liberating, that's invading. Your moral beliefs don't change that.

[Defendingg]

much closer than I expected, only 99 vote margin now.

[Oligarchy-governed East Soviet Union]

People like Evil Wolf always get on my nerves. They get through an argument by constantly egging you on. You get more and more desperate to beat them and they get more and more confident in annoying you. In my experience, if they are resorting to that kind of rhetoric, they are usually wrong and they know it, they just don't want to admit it. Besides, it doesn't matter what we say here anyways. This late in the voting no one will actually read this. There's no point arguing about this anymore.

[Oligarchy-governed East Soviet Union]

much closer than I expected, only 99 vote margin now.

Yeah. I dumped this all over the big WA region RMBs:
On a different note, if you're WA, go vote for the current Security Council resolution. If you think you ought to vote against it, check out the forum on which it is being discussed.
"Votes For: 5,079 (49%)
Votes Against: 5,326 (51%)
6 hours left
Now that this is more neck and neck, I hope that some delegates will change their votes in order to give Hogwarts back to the true natives, before it is destroyed forever.
246 vote margin
(2,431) individual WA member nations for vs (2,295) individual WA member nations against
True delegate count:
306 delegates for
217 delegates against"
COME ON GUYS!! MOST PEOPLE WANT THIS TO PASS, BUT A BUNCH OF FILTHY OVER-POWERED DELEGATES ARE VOTING AGAINST!!!

I also posted on this forum multiple times, tried to convince people in regions and TGed some of the main opposition delegates to change their vote -- One of them is a friend of mine. I hope that helped.

[Defendingg]

much closer than I expected, only 99 vote margin now.

Yeah. I dumped this all over the big WA region RMBs:
On a different note, if you're WA, go vote for the current Security Council resolution. If you think you ought to vote against it, check out the forum on which it is being discussed.
"Votes For: 5,079 (49%)
Votes Against: 5,326 (51%)
6 hours left
Now that this is more neck and neck, I hope that some delegates will change their votes in order to give Hogwarts back to the true natives, before it is destroyed forever.
246 vote margin
(2,431) individual WA member nations for vs (2,295) individual WA member nations against
True delegate count:
306 delegates for
217 delegates against"
COME ON GUYS!! MOST PEOPLE WANT THIS TO PASS, BUT A BUNCH OF FILTHY OVER-POWERED DELEGATES ARE VOTING AGAINST!!!

be sure to add in the part where he admits they are going for a refound.

The lack of that was part of the reason why people voted against it before.

I also posted on this forum multiple times, tried to convince people in regions and TGed some of the main opposition delegates to change their vote -- One of them is a friend of mine. I hope that helped.

[Through The Breach]

If 10KI breaks this resolution it will really damage my faith in TITO.

It is so close!