[PASSED] Liberate Liberal Haven

[Cormac A Stark]

Well we do support fiscal fascist policies, national rebirth, etc... But as racism and preaching of unreasonable hate in the sphere of real life goes, no, we are not like that.

And how about The Greater German Reich? I suppose Apartheid South Africa is somehow not at all racist, with its talk about being "the white giant of a Dark Continent" right on its WFE?

It may be that there are some RWU members who don't have such troubling views, but there are members of your organization who do and you tolerate it.

[Haritopia]

That message talking about a coalition of democratic nations,specifically Coalition of Democratic Nations, was in The Fascist Union.It was said by The Republic of Repsac II.Apparently it was misinformation.

I have seen this Repsac II guy paste the same message on several regions, and yeah, it was simple disinformation

Just play the game and have fun.No need to get into stupid debates about people (that are roleplaying as "Nazis" or "Fascists") that shouldn't be invading.It's basically the same thing either way,whether it's "Nazis"/"Fascists" invading or Liberals/Capitalists/Democracies invading.It just doesn't really matter which way it is.[/quote]
Indeed. We have the right to invade, just like anyone else here. I would never undermine this gampeplay right to anyone, even our "foes", everybody should enjoy the game and simply have fun

[Cormac A Stark]

Who is the WFE of The URAP fun for?

The Unified Reich of Axis Powers.

We are dedicated to the survival,expansion and advancement of the White Race through the promotion of National Socialism,White Nationalism,Pan-Aryanism and many other worthy ideologies.

[Haritopia]

Well we do support fiscal fascist policies, national rebirth, etc... But as racism and preaching of unreasonable hate in the sphere of real life goes, no, we are not like that.

And how about The Greater German Reich? I suppose Apartheid South Africa is somehow not at all racist, with its talk about being "the white giant of a Dark Continent" right on its WFE?

It may be that there are some RWU members who don't have such troubling views, but there are members of your organization who do and you tolerate it.

Well, the GGR was, considering racist activity something of a black sleep of the RWU, that much I have to admit. Never the less they joined forces with us, thus, I must bat an eye. But still, even they sometimes punish such actions

As for the other regions, they are more or less racist free. I have talked to the heads of NE and FU and they seem to reject racism. As the head of government of the (to my knowing) 4th largest RWU region, I have placed my stance on racism and chauvinism clear enough here

[Haritopia]

Who is the WFE of The URAP fun for?

The Unified Reich of Axis Powers.

We are dedicated to the survival,expansion and advancement of the White Race through the promotion of National Socialism,White Nationalism,Pan-Aryanism and many other worthy ideologies.

>URAP is not a member of the RWU
But I agree, the WFE there is ew

[Cormac A Stark]

>is not a member of the RWU
But I agree, the WFE there is ew

It isn't? Regardless, it is one of the regions supporting the operation in Liberal Haven. It's listed on Liberal Haven's WFE, that's how I found it.

You still haven't addressed Apartheid South Africa either, which has an embassy with RWU (I assume, in the absence of a list of member regions, that embassies are reserved for member regions and conquered regions).

[Haritopia]

>is not a member of the RWU
But I agree, the WFE there is ew

It isn't? Regardless, it is one of the regions supporting the operation in Liberal Haven. It's listed on Liberal Haven's WFE, that's how I found it.

You still haven't addressed Apartheid South Africa either, which has an embassy with RWU (I assume, in the absence of a list of member regions, that embassies are reserved for member regions and conquered region).

There is a member list for the RWU, it is linked on RWU's WFE
I checked it for you, Apartheid is not a member

[Cormac A Stark]

There is a member list for the RWU, it is linked on RWU's WFE

Missed that. So Apartheid South Africa is an Observer region -- I assume now you'll finally address their WFE. Meanwhile, The URAP isn't an RWU member region but is supporting the occupation in Liberal Haven (or at least is linked on Liberal Haven's WFE) despite the "ew" WFE I just quoted here.

Tell me again why I'm wrong to oppose your organization based on the real life, hateful ideology with which it has freely chosen to associate.

[Mousebumples]

Just a modly reminder to all players here that we should be discussing the liberation/proposal at vote here ... and not debating the merits (or lack thereof) when it comes to Nazi-ism, anti-fascism, liberatorism, or whatever. Yes, it will come up, considering the parties involved, but try to stay on topic.

[Haritopia]

There is a member list for the RWU, it is linked on RWU's WFE

Missed that. So Apartheid South Africa is an Observer region -- I assume now you'll finally address their WFE. Meanwhile, The URAP isn't an RWU member region but is supporting the occupation in Liberal Haven (or at least is linked on Liberal Haven's WFE) despite the "ew" WFE I just quoted here.

Tell me again why I'm wrong to oppose your organization based on the real life, hateful ideology with which it has freely chosen to associate.

The URAP is supporting the occupation for it's own reasons for which I do not care. Further more, Apartheid is an observer to the RWU, not a member, thus irrelevant.

And also, why are you back at the hateful part. I have made it clear that the member regions are not racists or at least do not promote racism or talk about it

[Haritopia]

Just a modly reminder to all players here that we should be discussing the liberation/proposal at vote here ... and not debating the merits (or lack thereof) when it comes to Nazi-ism, anti-fascism, liberatorism, or whatever. Yes, it will come up, considering the parties involved, but try to stay on topic.

Ah, sorry, I was, for my part, just trying to show the OP that his hate is based a bit too much on disinformation, and the hypocrisy involved in this liberation

[SkyDip]

If you would care to point me in the direction of the "Official" guidelines for a Liberation I will happily revisit my interpretation.

"A resolution to strike down Delegate-imposed barriers to free entry in a region."

No pre-conditions in the sub heading. Therefore in the absence of anything else then any region that has a delegate imposed password is eligible wheter it meets yours, mine or Sedges criteria or not.

Or are some regions more equal than others?

First off, that isn't Sedge's graphic. Do your research. Secondly, yes, some regions are more deserving than others. We can't Liberate every poor region that gets a password put on it.

I'm not too sure why SkyDip has the opinion that anything not authored by him is a waste of time - is there some hurry to label all the good/bad guys, some sort of time limit when the rosettes expire perhaps?

Can you point me to where I said that? I seem to have forgotten. Your continual strawmen are getting more and more amusing.

81 people disagreed with your point of view to get it to this stage - why do you seem to have an issue with accepting that the WA is not an exclusive club set up specifically to deal with YOUR problems?

Hahaha. Are you talking about the lemmings who are willing to Liberate anything, as proven by Douria, Cormac, and Venico, and also approve proposals? You're just being silly now - quorum isn't hard to reach. That's not an argument for this region being worth anything.

[Equality and Liberty]

I voted against it, because I oppose all liberations. Too bad if the previous delegate/founder didn't care enough to defend the region. The invaders won, they have the right to do what they want now, the entire world doesn't watch a region, that job is for the delegate.

[Ferrandor]

*talks with lisp and has trendy voice while being a man wearing a dress*
Ooooh! How trendy. You better vote for this or your a RACIST!

[Vrolondia]

First, my own opinion on this:

Personally, I feel like anything that promotes Nazi Ideals or culture is wrong; but maybe that's just me, because I'm German and grew up being called a Nazi. Or maybe it's the Judaism that makes up 1/8th of my biology? Who can say.

Do you feel big and strong promoting an ideology of hate knowing people can't do anything about it?

Next, my opinion on the Resolution:

It's a dead region with 5 people, but who cares; anything to stick a rock in their boots.

[Acadienne]

I'm not too sure why SkyDip has the opinion that anything not authored by him is a waste of time - is there some hurry to label all the good/bad guys, some sort of time limit when the rosettes expire perhaps?

Can you point me to where I said that? I seem to have forgotten. Your continual strawmen are getting more and more amusing.

So are you saying that this Liberation is NOT a waste of the SC's time then?

[Quilavaland]

The Security Council,

Recognizing that Liberal Haven is a peaceful region with a native community which has not engaged in any act of aggression against any other region;

Condemning the multi-regional force which has invaded and occupied Liberal Haven;

Observing that the occupying force has barred free entry to Liberal Haven for the purpose of purging its native community and taking permanent control of the region;

Noting that the invasion and occupation of Liberal Haven has been motivated by the reprehensible and hateful ideology espoused by the occupying force, which deserves no recognition by name from this Security Council;

Asserting that it is the responsibility of the Security Council to remove the barriers preventing liberation of Liberal Haven and to do everything in its power to thwart the occupying force:

Hereby Liberates Liberal Haven.

My apologies to Applebania for submitting this so quickly, but Liberations run on a ticking clock and I didn't think this could afford to wait. This hopefully addresses the concerns in regard to giving RWU attention in the Security Council, at least to a degree: They will no longer get the name of their organization, nor any of its member regions, nor even their lead on the books of the Security Council.

To those who claim there are no natives or the native community is so small that the region is irrelevant: 1) See Liberate Christmas. 2) We don't know how many natives there actually are, but the bottom line is that RWU has no legitimate claim to the region and if there is even one legitimate native, that native has the right to stay in his or her region and not have it dismissed as irrelevant by those who want to bury their heads in the sand and wish Nazis away really hard.

Being a pacifist nation I'm for this.

[Volanowsh]

Riddle me this Brother. What makes this raid different than any other? I understand that these are Nazis (or at least people roleplaying them), but why should the SC care specifically about Nazis refounding an irrelevant region vs. another raider group? This isn't RL where they have committed genocide and oppressed millions of people. In NS they have been rather...annoying? But nothing so reprehensible that the SC should stop them at every turn.

I'm not trying to say "We shouldn't care." I just want you and resolution to tell me why we SHOULD care.

Raiders have an in-game ideology behind their in-game actions. Nazi invaders are acting on an insidious real life ideology and using in-game actions to promote and advance that ideology. That's the difference.

And so one can argue that the people my region, The Black Riders, in real life have come across this novel called The Lord of the Rings, and decided to spew the hate of this Lord Sauron and his Nazgul (The Black Riders) and force it down the regions of NationStates.

Oh please. You just made this proposal because you can't differentiate between real-life Nazis and in-game Nazi themed regions. I mean if they have posted "Heil Hitler" and Swastikas all over the WFE, went to insult Jews and Black People and whomever else, then especially targeting them would make sense. But they have done no such thing.

As a raider I am against all liberations, no exceptions. But I am especially against liberating a region that people are biased against, not because of what the region does, but what the people associate with it in real life.

[Coraxion]

My main concerns are related to practical actions after this Liberation goes almost inevitable through. Are there then people willing attack against that occupation, during update? And if so, then what for? Are there people online waiting if nazis try refound that region after WA-SC Liberation? Otherwise there are no single point to liberate anything on the paper.

Organized military gameplay is only way to change anything there, for what ever reasons and by what ever motives.

Must remind that before I started push my Cimmerian Mammoth Bone Catapults all around the defenseless native fields, I had already extensive experience in fighting endless border wars against nazis and fascists (real and RPing) in this game. Even taking that old moralistic approach to things I still tend to think that Liberations are useless if they are not integrated as a part to real in-game activity following such liberations. No clear signals indicate that there would someone organising such action. Antifa-Forces are tied to other ongoing operations and D-side of R/D plays petty bureaucrats on the Forums. Imperialists doesn't bother and Purists' R-Side doesn't care. RPers propably just click FOR in WA following wisdom of Most vocal members of The Security Council.

And everyone can be so Liberal that they can found Liberal Haven II, Continuation of Liberal Haven, The Liberal Haven, Haven of Liberals etc. and few never heard Liberal Natives can move to A Liberal Haven and endorse delegate there as such region is perfect target for NS-SS among all other raiding organisations. Most transcendent and idealistic liberals can create Liberal Heaven for their escapist needs to evade evils of The Multiverse. Of course, only as long as they are liberals enought to keep their founder alive.

[SkyDip]

Can you point me to where I said that? I seem to have forgotten. Your continual strawmen are getting more and more amusing.

So are you saying that this Liberation is NOT a waste of the SC's time then?

Don't change the subject. Point to where I've ever said everything that doesn't have my name is a waste of time. You won't be able, and your assertion in that respect is completely baseless.

[Acadienne]

So are you saying that this Liberation is NOT a waste of the SC's time then?

Don't change the subject. Point to where I've ever said everything that doesn't have my name is a waste of time. You won't be able, and your assertion in that respect is completely baseless.

As you have asked

My whole issue with this proposal is that this region is of no consequence to anyone outside it. Therefore, why should the WA, a much larger body, concern itself with your problems?

I stand corrected, you never uttered "waste of time" but the implication in your above post is clear. In order to consider the proposal the WA would have to spend some rime on it.

So, in the interests of clarity, would you care to state whether this particular resolution is, or is not, in your opinion. a waste of the SC/WA's time?

[Kitsco]

We can not turn effectively target individual regions that succumb to invaders, The matter is clearly a regional matter, the security council should focus on more pressing issues. I vote Against, May your regional politics have the best of luck resolving the problem.

[Acadienne]

We can not turn effectively target individual regions that succumb to invaders, The matter is clearly a regional matter, the security council should focus on more pressing issues. I vote Against, May your regional politics have the best of luck resolving the problem.

What pressing issues are more important than defending the rights of a violated region?

Seriously, I would like to know what are the priorities of the Security Council that override the liberties of regions?

[Equality and Liberty]

Seriously, I would like to know what are the priorities of the Security Council that override the liberties of regions?

Hmm, maybe allowing the delegate to have the liberty to do what they want? Raiding is allowed by the side rules, you know that right, because you bragged to me about knowing so much about NS and being in it since 2008. Good for you. Now, is your region under attack? No, so why do you care so much about liberating these random regions?

[Kitsco]

We can not turn effectively target individual regions that succumb to invaders, The matter is clearly a regional matter, the security council should focus on more pressing issues. I vote Against, May your regional politics have the best of luck resolving the problem.

What pressing issues are more important than defending the rights of a violated region?

Seriously, I would like to know what are the priorities of the Security Council that override the liberties of regions?

A region is it's own political power, if they elected a regional delegate, that is now kicking out the natives, barring the region and so forth, it is part of a new political process that they and only they can resolve, They have to work out their own political problems, and the defense and preservation of their region is also up to them decide. Why should a power shift in one region effect multiple regions? multiple nations? It is not a worldly matter, it is solely a regional concern that they have to fix for themselves.