[DEFEATED] Commend Blackbird

[Ananke II]

From talking to The Red Factions at the time it was my clear impression that destroying the forum was his own decision and not an order given to him from above, which considering the circumstances surrounding the outing of his cover seems credible to me.

[Mallorea and Riva]

See? Can't even make a statement without defenders swarming in on me.

The "cry me a river" part was figurative, not a request.

... I know?

From talking to The Red Factions at the time it was my clear impression that destroying the forum was his own decision and not an order given to him from above, which considering the circumstances surrounding the outing of his cover seems credible to me.

Which forum are you referring to? Invaders Army, DEN, TBH, what? We aren't dealing with one incident that is tangentially related to BB...

[Ananke II]

I'm commenting on the DEN forum, since I used to chat some with TRF during the period where he was involve in DEN.

[Unibot III]

Invaders Army, DEN, TBH, what? We aren't dealing with one incident that is tangentially related to BB...

"DEN" was the one where TRF's identity was revealed by Unistrut (ADN), Not "Invaders".

[The Bruce]

There were only two rogue players responsible for the RLA forum destroyer attacks, triggered by the volume of defamatory and obscene photoshopping of RL pictures of defenders, and neither of them were named Blackbird.

[Venico]

Yet people still seem to be ignoring the fact that almost his entire GP career was lying, manipulating, and subterfuge. None of which is commendable. >.>

[Via Vulpes]

Yet people still seem to be ignoring the fact that almost his entire GP career was lying, manipulating, and subterfuge. None of which is commendable. >.>

Who wasn't back then?

[Venico]

Who wasn't back then?

Yes but you don't commend people for that. Read my previous post, I'm not saying he should be shamed. But his actions don't warrant commendation.

[Darwinish Brentsylvania]

Brentsylvania gives this is stamp of approval. It was written out well too.

[Punk Daddy]

Ah, The Red Factions. From my recollection I don't believe BB was involved. I'm sure I spoke to him on the subject at the time or even years later.

That said, today's world could certainly use a BB or Unistrut.

If people don't want to vote for this over forum destruction, fine by me. BB did a lot of good for the game and even if he did this, I don't believe it outweighs the good.

Just my two dimes.

[Unibot III]

While I doubt BB would like the comparison to Unistrut, however, I agree. I also think commentators here have the wrong idea of who Blackbird was as a player... he wasn't this destroyer of worlds, bulldog type, so much as one of the stronger diplomat in the game.

He was one of the few players who maintained prolific careers in both the ADN and RLA -- and was regarded as one of the most influential players in 2005.

And BB also definitely played this game as a game for fun -- it couldn't be mentioned in the text, but he holds the strange distinction of being both ADN, RLA and an NPO Emperor (in CN ).

[Anur-Sanur]

Nice of you to mention Unistrut.

Both of them essentially came back after long retirements to do nothing more than whine about how much better it was in the old days.

Against.

[Ramaeus]

I've submitted this proposal.

Delegates, I thank you in advance for your approvals.

[North East Somerset]

Applauding Blackbird's abilities in the field of intelligence, participating in the downfall of several formerly great invader and imperialist powers by infiltrating their ranks

Why on earth are we applauding this? The downfall of any region, raider and defender alike, due to nefarious infiltration techniques is a great detriment to the game and it's players. It's disgraceful enough we are commending someone who sanctioned Forum destruction, never mind mentioning the downfall of regions as a positive thing.

creating one of the most powerful and respected intelligence organizations in history,

Respected? An interesting choice of words. I have more respect for the mud I wipe off my boots at the end of a day than I do for RLA Intel.

Recognizing Blackbird's role as Quaestor (Minister of Foreign Affairs) in The Meritocracy, one of the largest and most successful politically themed regions in history, wherein, they created the Alliance of Capitalists, Conservatives and Economic Libertarians (ACCEL), signed diplomatic agreements with several regions, and created the framework for Meritocratic foreign policy,

Blackbird did not have a role in The Meritocracy or ACCEL. Cortath did. So how can we recognise this? I was in ACCEL back in the days when BB/Cortath couldn't shut up shoving his duality crap down our throats, about how the two nations are totally separate. But now in a commendation we are treating the two the same? How very convenient! So basically we are commending the player now rather than the nation?

[Cormacville]

I'm literally appalled that we have a draft commending Blackbird for his role in the downfall of raider and imperialist regions. Whatever one's views on his role in the forum destruction incidents associated with the RLA, there is no question that this commendation is singling out his intelligence work -- overseeing the very department under which those destructive incidents were perpetrated, which certainly did result in the temporary downfall of those regions -- for commendation.

This is unacceptable. Absolutely not. Not when the Security Council condemned Unknown for the exact same thing, with the exact same level of complicity.

[Cerlon]

This should be an interesting proposal to watch. I figure it'll be hotly contested by both sides.

Blackbird did not have a role in The Meritocracy or ACCEL. Cortath did. So how can we recognise this? I was in ACCEL back in the days when BB/Cortath couldn't shut up shoving his duality crap down our throats, about how the two nations are totally separate. But now in a commendation we are treating the two the same? How very convenient! So basically we are commending the player now rather than the nation?

To be entirely fair, duality isn't what it used to be nor is the RP in mainstream GP, and the SC's backwards bastardization of IC/OOC lines for GP via R4 has made it all but pointless to re-engage this topic of debate. BB is retired and the proposal would be targeting him as a player, so, in terms of precedent, it wouldn't be an outlier in the SC book were it to mention his other personas.

[Ramaeus]

Blackbird did not have a role in The Meritocracy or ACCEL. Cortath did. So how can we recognise this? I was in ACCEL back in the days when BB/Cortath couldn't shut up shoving his duality crap down our throats, about how the two nations are totally separate. But now in a commendation we are treating the two the same? How very convenient! So basically we are commending the player now rather than the nation?

Mod ruling relevant to the topic at hand.

[SkyDip]

Blackbird did not have a role in The Meritocracy or ACCEL. Cortath did. So how can we recognise this? I was in ACCEL back in the days when BB/Cortath couldn't shut up shoving his duality crap down our throats, about how the two nations are totally separate. But now in a commendation we are treating the two the same? How very convenient! So basically we are commending the player now rather than the nation?

Mod ruling relevant to the topic at hand.

I don't see a rule violation there. Even if you can spread that thin logic to a point where calling BB's involvement in The Meritocracy is factually inaccurate, the mods generally don't delete proposals for factual inaccuracies. I see no issue.

[North East Somerset]

I don't know or suggest it likely there is a rule violation. I'm merely pointing out that BB spent his entire NS career insisting that his activities as Blackbird and his activities as Cortath were totally separated and unrelated, which was very convenient to him at the time, but yet now we are commending him as the player for both nations simultaneously and for their effect on Gameplay cumulatively. So when being the same player was a negative, it was denied that it was relevant, but now when it is a positive for this scenario we're quite happy to reap the benefits. The sheer hypocrisy of this arrangement makes me cringe but I suppose we shouldn't be surprised at what lengths the extremist defender community are prepared to go to, to "win". Forum and region destruction for instance.

[Unibot III]

I don't know or suggest it likely there is a rule violation. I'm merely pointing out that BB spent his entire NS career insisting that his activities as Blackbird and his activities as Cortath were totally separated and unrelated, which was very convenient to him at the time, but yet now we are commending him as the player for both nations simultaneously and for their effect on Gameplay cumulatively. So when being the same player was a negative, it was denied that it was relevant, but now when it is a positive for this scenario we're quite happy to reap the benefits. The sheer hypocrisy of this arrangement makes me cringe but I suppose we shouldn't be surprised at what lengths the extremist defender community are prepared to go to, to "win". Forum and region destruction for instance.

Um, sure. Moldavi insists his activities as Moldavi are separate from Pierconium or Gratius Maximus -- we would still condemn/commend them all as one. The Security Council has never exactly recognized game duality.

[Mallorea and Riva]

I don't know or suggest it likely there is a rule violation. I'm merely pointing out that BB spent his entire NS career insisting that his activities as Blackbird and his activities as Cortath were totally separated and unrelated, which was very convenient to him at the time, but yet now we are commending him as the player for both nations simultaneously and for their effect on Gameplay cumulatively. So when being the same player was a negative, it was denied that it was relevant, but now when it is a positive for this scenario we're quite happy to reap the benefits. The sheer hypocrisy of this arrangement makes me cringe but I suppose we shouldn't be surprised at what lengths the extremist defender community are prepared to go to, to "win". Forum and region destruction for instance.

Um, sure. Moldavi insists his activities as Moldavi are separate from Pierconium or Gratius Maximus -- we would still condemn/commend them all as one. The Security Council has never exactly recognized game duality.

Commendations are distinct from condemnations. If BB has insisted that his actions which are apparently worthy of praise are separate then we ought to recognize them as such. Furthermore he is a forum wrecker. That much is silly to dispute. If we are seriously considering commending someone who at the very least sat by bathed in incompetence as three separate forums were trashed then I'm not entirely sure what the bloody point is anymore.

[Ananke II]

Why on earth are we applauding this? The downfall of any region, raider and defender alike, due to nefarious infiltration techniques is a great detriment to the game and it's players. It's disgraceful enough we are commending someone who sanctioned Forum destruction, never mind mentioning the downfall of regions as a positive thing.

I disagree. Forum destruction aside I do think well done gameplay infiltrations, which work to undermine an org/region in various ways is worthy of respect. Even though I know I'll probably feel differently in the moment if it happened to a place I was involved in, I can still look back on some of the things my ingame opponents did during the years and respect the skill it took to pull it off.

[Unibot III]

The downfall of the AA is indisputably a good thing. >_>

[Mallorea and Riva]

Why on earth are we applauding this? The downfall of any region, raider and defender alike, due to nefarious infiltration techniques is a great detriment to the game and it's players. It's disgraceful enough we are commending someone who sanctioned Forum destruction, never mind mentioning the downfall of regions as a positive thing.

I disagree. Forum destruction aside...

Bolding mine. Yeah but let's not put the forum destruction aside.

The downfall of the AA is indisputably a good thing. >_>

I dispute it.

[Venico]

I disagree. Forum destruction aside I do think well done gameplay infiltrations, which work to undermine an org/region in various ways is worthy of respect. Even though I know I'll probably feel differently in the moment if it happened to a place I was involved in, I can still look back on some of the things my ingame opponents did during the years and respect the skill it took to pull it off.

Oh I absolutely agree. As a person who loves to run intelligence ops, his work is definitely worthy of respect. But if I were to tell you that we were commending someone because they lied, manipulated and worked systems under false guises, you'd tell me to cut back on the drugs. =P But if we say someone did it to a region that was raider, or in the name of natives everywhere! Then suddenly it becomes commendable.

I respect his actions and I think more defenders need to get off their asses and do something like what he did, but that doesn't mean we commend the actions.

Edit: Sorry I'm long winded sometimes and my post seemed incomplete. =P His actions are things that I expect to get condemned for such as the infiltration and sabotage of defender regions/organizations. Using underhanded tactics in order to slip past security systems. Lying to holy hell in order to continue a ruse. These are things I expect to get condemned for...just because you switch in the word raider for defender doesn't mean the actions suddenly become commendable.