[PASSED] Assisted Suicide Act

[Separatist Peoples]

...no. That isn't true.

Yes, yes it is. For instance, if you're an Australian you cannot travel to say Brazil, Vietnam or the Ukraine and have sexual relations with a 12 year old because its legal in that country. You are still bound by Australian law whilst you travel overseas. It's the same theory that if your country does not recognize the crime that was committed in a foreign land, that person will not be extradited to face that crime.

EG, You cannot be tried for the same crime twice in the USA but you can in Italy. The USA does not recognize double jeopardy

OOC: Really? That's ridiculous...but I'll cede the point. Australian law isn't something I'm familiar with.

[The Punished]

Yes, yes it is. For instance, if you're an Australian you cannot travel to say Brazil, Vietnam or the Ukraine and have sexual relations with a 12 year old because its legal in that country. You are still bound by Australian law whilst you travel overseas. It's the same theory that if your country does not recognize the crime that was committed in a foreign land, that person will not be extradited to face that crime.

EG, You cannot be tried for the same crime twice in the USA but you can in Italy. The USA does not recognize double jeopardy

OOC: Really? That's ridiculous...but I'll cede the point. Australian law isn't something I'm familiar with.

OOC: Yep, I also believe that the UK has something similar. Did Gary Glitter not get done for the same thing? He could have settled for a 16yo in England (legal) but chose a 13yo in Vietnam(illegal)?

[Sierra Lyricalia]

OOC: Yep, I also believe that the UK has something similar. Did Gary Glitter not get done for the same thing? He could have settled for a 16yo in England (legal) but chose a 13yo in Vietnam(illegal)?

OOC: No, he was convicted of separate crimes in each jurisdiction:

Glitter's legal history instigated a fall from grace that the BBC described as "spectacular".[6] He was convicted three times for driving under the influence, which in 1987 saw him receive a ten-year driving ban and narrowly escape imprisonment.[6] The late 1990s saw Glitter's image become irreparably tarnished, following his 1997 arrest and 1999 conviction in the United Kingdom for possession of thousands of items of child pornography.[7] Later, Glitter faced criminal charges and deportation across several countries including Vietnam and Cambodia and the UK connected with actual and suspected child sexual abuse, after a Vietnamese court found him guilty of obscene acts with minors in 2006;[8] he had been living in Vietnam since deportation from Cambodia on suspected child sexual abuse charges in 2002. Glitter was deported from Vietnam back to Britain at the end of his sentence, where he was placed on the Sex Offenders' Register for life.
(link)

In other words, his previous convictions for child porn in the U.K. and his convictions for child sexual abuse that is illegal in all three of Cambodia, Vietnam, and the U.K. were what got him the lifetime sex offender registry. The U.K. didn't prosecute for actions taken in Southeast Asia; they simply treated him as a convicted felon (which he is).

I'd love to hear if anyone has a citation for a real occurrence of a nation asserting extraterritorial jurisdiction over its citizens. I don't doubt there are lots of sheriffs and DAs in the U.S. who'd love to lock up people returning from places like Amsterdam and Portugal for all the weed they smoked there; but I suspect it's not only a limited budget that keeps them from doing so. I don't know that any nation on IRL Earth is quite that intrusive.

[The Punished]

OOC: Yep, I also believe that the UK has something similar. Did Gary Glitter not get done for the same thing? He could have settled for a 16yo in England (legal) but chose a 13yo in Vietnam(illegal)?

OOC: No, he was convicted of separate crimes in each jurisdiction:

Glitter's legal history instigated a fall from grace that the BBC described as "spectacular".[6] He was convicted three times for driving under the influence, which in 1987 saw him receive a ten-year driving ban and narrowly escape imprisonment.[6] The late 1990s saw Glitter's image become irreparably tarnished, following his 1997 arrest and 1999 conviction in the United Kingdom for possession of thousands of items of child pornography.[7] Later, Glitter faced criminal charges and deportation across several countries including Vietnam and Cambodia and the UK connected with actual and suspected child sexual abuse, after a Vietnamese court found him guilty of obscene acts with minors in 2006;[8] he had been living in Vietnam since deportation from Cambodia on suspected child sexual abuse charges in 2002. Glitter was deported from Vietnam back to Britain at the end of his sentence, where he was placed on the Sex Offenders' Register for life.
(link)

In other words, his previous convictions for child porn in the U.K. and his convictions for child sexual abuse that is illegal in all three of Cambodia, Vietnam, and the U.K. were what got him the lifetime sex offender registry. The U.K. didn't prosecute for actions taken in Southeast Asia; they simply treated him as a convicted felon (which he is).

I'd love to hear if anyone has a citation for a real occurrence of a nation asserting extraterritorial jurisdiction over its citizens. I don't doubt there are lots of sheriffs and DAs in the U.S. who'd love to lock up people returning from places like Amsterdam and Portugal for all the weed they smoked there; but I suspect it's not only a limited budget that keeps them from doing so. I don't know that any nation on IRL Earth is quite that intrusive.

OOC:

I wasn't to sure on the Glitter saga and I agree that many places will not chase a person for a crime that's really a misdemeanor. You'll never be extradited back to Singapore for instance for chewing gum.

I know Australians chase sex tourists with vigor and any travel agent that knows a passenger is going for sexual relations with minors, they need to report them to the Australian Federal Police

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/08/us/us ... rseas.html

[The Flood]

Yes, yes it is. For instance, if you're an Australian you cannot travel to say Brazil, Vietnam or the Ukraine and have sexual relations with a 12 year old because its legal in that country. You are still bound by Australian law whilst you travel overseas. It's the same theory that if your country does not recognize the crime that was committed in a foreign land, that person will not be extradited to face that crime.
EG, You cannot be tried for the same crime twice in the USA but you can in Italy. The USA does not recognize double jeopardy

OOC: Really? That's ridiculous...but I'll cede the point. Australian law isn't something I'm familiar with.

OOC: how is it ridiculous to convict a pedophile who had sex with a 12 year old, just because they did it in another country? They still committed pedophilia, and they must be punished for it, regardless of whether it was legal in that country.

[Damanucus]

I have read some of the debates about this resolution, and while I support the intention (as I have made abundantly clear previously), the concern that this resolution seeks to protect those who seek euthanasia but leaves family members and others involved vulnerable as "accomplices for murder" (as has been threatened by members of this Assembly) concerns me somewhat. All respect to the delegation from Christian Democrats, but unless the author can assure me that this prosecutory hounding will certainly not occur, I will sadly have to change my vote to an abstinence.

Stephanie Orman
Representative, Nomadic Peoples of Damanucus

[The Flood]

I have read some of the debates about this resolution, and while I support the intention (as I have made abundantly clear previously), the concern that this resolution seeks to protect those who seek euthanasia but leaves family members and others involved vulnerable as "accomplices for murder" (as has been threatened by members of this Assembly) concerns me somewhat. All respect to the delegation from Christian Democrats, but unless the author can assure me that this prosecutory hounding will certainly not occur, I will sadly have to change my vote to an abstinence.
Stephanie Orman
Representative, Nomadic Peoples of Damanucus

Ambassador, how can you support the protection of criminals, responsible for assisting in a murder? They deserve no protection, and must be punished for their heinous deeds.

[Separatist Peoples]

OOC: Really? That's ridiculous...but I'll cede the point. Australian law isn't something I'm familiar with.

OOC: how is it ridiculous to convict a pedophile who had sex with a 12 year old, just because they did it in another country? They still committed pedophilia, and they must be punished for it, regardless of whether it was legal in that country.

OOC: Because I believe in the importance of jurisdiction when it comes to apprehension. I believe, fervently so, that nobody should be detained for an action that was legal where it was committed. I don't particularly care if a pedophile had sex with a 12 year old. It wasn't illegal where it was committed, so no crime was committed at all.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

OOC: how is it ridiculous to convict a pedophile who had sex with a 12 year old, just because they did it in another country? They still committed pedophilia, and they must be punished for it, regardless of whether it was legal in that country.

OOC: Because I believe in the importance of jurisdiction when it comes to apprehension. I believe, fervently so, that nobody should be detained for an action that was legal where it was committed. I don't particularly care if a pedophile had sex with a 12 year old. It wasn't illegal where it was committed, so no crime was committed at all.

OOC: Don't overcommit to rhetoric. I'm pretty sure sex with 12-year-olds is illegal everywhere you could conceivably go. It's just way easier to do in some places than in others. It's also way the hell more repugnant than assisting someone to commit suicide.

I'm not sure I'd object to any police agency arresting and charging pedophiles, jurisdiction or no jurisdiction, as long as they actually have probable cause to do so (obviously extradition is preferable if the nation in question would prosecute); whereas for actions that are actually legal (to say nothing of way the hell less immoral, if not outright universally ethical) in the foreign nation in question, this is massive and alarming overreach.

[Separatist Peoples]

OOC: Because I believe in the importance of jurisdiction when it comes to apprehension. I believe, fervently so, that nobody should be detained for an action that was legal where it was committed. I don't particularly care if a pedophile had sex with a 12 year old. It wasn't illegal where it was committed, so no crime was committed at all.

OOC: Don't overcommit to rhetoric. I'm pretty sure sex with 12-year-olds is illegal everywhere you could conceivably go. It's just way easier to do in some places than in others. It's also way the hell more repugnant than assisting someone to commit suicide.

I'm not sure I'd object to any police agency arresting and charging pedophiles, jurisdiction or no jurisdiction, as long as they actually have probable cause to do so (obviously extradition is preferable if the nation in question would prosecute); whereas for actions that are actually legal (to say nothing of way the hell less immoral, if not outright universally ethical) in the foreign nation in question, this is massive and alarming overreach.

OOC: So long as it wasn't illegal where it happened, no crime was committed. Only an extremely arrogant individual would claim that their nation's laws are inherently superior and ought to recognize no jurisdiction. However, this is an issue that belongs in General, or, at least in the Extrajudicial Jurisdiction thread, where I'd be happy to continue the debate. While this is tangentially linked, we're drifting into thread-jacking.

[Christian Democrats]

I'm sorry I missed most of the debate, but I want to thank everybody who voted in favor of this blocker resolution.

[Christian Democrats]

And there is already a repeal proposal.

Repeal "Assisted Suicide Act"
Category: Repeal
Resolution: GA#285
Proposed by: Buchi Land

Suicide is a big mistake. It will ruin any chance for someone to do something with their lives. We should spend more time trying to cure them instead of killing them like some kind of sick cow.

[Auralia]

Congrats, CD.

[Christian Democrats]

Congrats, CD.

Thanks.

[Christian Democrats]

I have read some of the debates about this resolution, and while I support the intention (as I have made abundantly clear previously), the concern that this resolution seeks to protect those who seek euthanasia but leaves family members and others involved vulnerable as "accomplices for murder" (as has been threatened by members of this Assembly) concerns me somewhat. All respect to the delegation from Christian Democrats, but unless the author can assure me that this prosecutory hounding will certainly not occur, I will sadly have to change my vote to an abstinence.

Stephanie Orman
Representative, Nomadic Peoples of Damanucus

It didn't occur to me until this debate that there are two ways to read this resolution.

Minimalist interpretation: Only patients themselves are free to travel to foreign countries to undergo assisted suicide.

Maximalist interpretation: The phrase "subject to the normal migration and travel laws" extends freedom of travel to family members.

If any of you are trying to figure out my "original intent" when writing the resolution, I did not have one.

[Defwa]

I have read some of the debates about this resolution, and while I support the intention (as I have made abundantly clear previously), the concern that this resolution seeks to protect those who seek euthanasia but leaves family members and others involved vulnerable as "accomplices for murder" (as has been threatened by members of this Assembly) concerns me somewhat. All respect to the delegation from Christian Democrats, but unless the author can assure me that this prosecutory hounding will certainly not occur, I will sadly have to change my vote to an abstinence.

Stephanie Orman
Representative, Nomadic Peoples of Damanucus

Defwa also has this concern and once again offers asylum to ensure that this gap does not cause issue.