[PASSED] Liberate Utopia

[Unibotian WASC Mission]

I didn't report it to the mods, it never occurred to me to do so. Unfortunately the RMB has been wiped of their babbling on philosophy and Thomas More -- I think they're trying to act sophisticated. If I catch them doing to it again, I will report them.

Anyway, this proposal will reach the floor sooner than I had thought, as "Liberate The Jedi Council" was withdrawn from the floor.

[Charlotte Ryberg]

My honored ambassador now sees the liberation as justified. However, we are keeping an eye on the ongoing situation, which we see as being "far from stable".

[The Bruce]

Utopia was a small, stable, and active region that was around for years, before it was invaded and held as a password protected prize by invaders. It's one I'd like to see back on its feet again, before it gets refounded by the invaders as a permanent prize region (invaders are already beginning to bulk up in preparation for this passing as a resolution).

[Communicative Action]

Utopia was a small, stable, and active region that was around for years, before it was invaded and held as a password protected prize by invaders. It's one I'd like to see back on its feet again, before it gets refounded by the invaders as a permanent prize region (invaders are already beginning to bulk up in preparation for this passing as a resolution).

Utopia is still stable, Bruce. That's why we are there. We love order and stability. Leave everything to us, and Utopia will live happy ever after .
You should really trust your fellow man.

[Communicative Action]

61 minutes ago	Nikitin	Acallis can have the position of slave... oh yeah, i went there.
7 minutes ago	A Mighty Hyena	He may not even have that position! The only position he is fit to take is that of a corpse as he rolls down to his grave.
1 minute ago	Palinsylvania	acallis' favorite position involves grasstains on his knees. lemurs, sounds like you just described Plato's utopia pretty well. so the girly-men have democratia again?! i say let em have it and lets move on to something they wont expect

Wicked, they've now degraded themselves to mocking the remaining natives.

There is no such thing as a "native". Only nations with varying degree of regional influence. Please stop this babbling over "natives"!

[Kalibarr]

61 minutes ago	Nikitin	Acallis can have the position of slave... oh yeah, i went there.
7 minutes ago	A Mighty Hyena	He may not even have that position! The only position he is fit to take is that of a corpse as he rolls down to his grave.
1 minute ago	Palinsylvania	acallis' favorite position involves grasstains on his knees. lemurs, sounds like you just described Plato's utopia pretty well. so the girly-men have democratia again?! i say let em have it and lets move on to something they wont expect

Wicked, they've now degraded themselves to mocking the remaining natives.

There is no such thing as a "native". Only nations with varying degree of regional influence. Please stop this babbling over "natives"!

quiet correct, if you remember greifing rules no longer apply.

[Unibotian WASC Mission]

61 minutes ago	Nikitin	Acallis can have the position of slave... oh yeah, i went there.
7 minutes ago	A Mighty Hyena	He may not even have that position! The only position he is fit to take is that of a corpse as he rolls down to his grave.
1 minute ago	Palinsylvania	acallis' favorite position involves grasstains on his knees. lemurs, sounds like you just described Plato's utopia pretty well. so the girly-men have democratia again?! i say let em have it and lets move on to something they wont expect

Wicked, they've now degraded themselves to mocking the remaining natives.

There is no such thing as a "native". Only nations with varying degree of regional influence. Please stop this babbling over "natives"!

Apparently there is no such thing as "respect" in Utopia anymore, according to my previous quote.

[Lagaphroaig]

Well that goes both ways. The "natives" were given a fair deal, but only responded with spite, naming the raiders "cowards". I noticed you been shocked by the language of some raiders, but for respect to be given, it first must be shown. Both Ocean Pride (while present) and Acacallis has used inflammatory language. Funny though, when raiders reply in the same manner, flames are going high here on the forums.

[Acacallis]

Just posing to say that I hope to see this resolution pass. I don't want to see my region refounded by the Alliance of Dictators, who have already shown that they care nothing for anyone but themselves. Hopefully the passing of this resolution will eventually let Ocean Pride move back to Utopia and keep Debenture and I from getting kicked.

Apologies for not being able to participate in the discussion the next couple of days, but I'll be without 'net access during Christmas.

Edit: Your 'fair deal' was that we could either move out voluntarily or get kicked. That's no choice at all.

[Great Brutopia]

Well that goes both ways. The "natives" were given a fair deal, but only responded with spite, naming the raiders "cowards". I noticed you been shocked by the language of some raiders, but for respect to be given, it first must be shown. Both Ocean Pride (while present) and Acacallis has used inflammatory language. Funny though, when raiders reply in the same manner, flames are going high here on the forums.

The multitude of offensive telegrams recieved by the raiders and annoying spam posted on their regional messageboard are another example of anti-raider correctness. Not to mention the many condescending and abusive posts in the SC forum.

[Great Brutopia]

There is no such thing as a "native". Only nations with varying degree of regional influence. Please stop this babbling over "natives"!

Please cf. this link: http://www.nationstates.net/page=influence

Obsoleted Rules

As mentioned above, "Invasion Griefing" rules have been abolished. The forum rules sticky has been updated to reflect this, with the following old rules removed:

* Deleted: A distinction was drawn between "invaders" and "natives," and different rules applied to each.

That means we no longer have complicated rules dictating, for example, how many residents a Delegate can eject before the moderators consider it illegal "griefing." Delegates need not worry about whether they are allowed to eject, ban, or password-protect—instead, if the game lets you do them, they're legal.

Therefore no one in Utopia has been griefing, despite the claim in the resolution. There is no such thing as "password griefing". If Lustrous wants to pw the region he is not breaking any rules.

This resolution also contains a large quantity of blatant pro-defender bias, which is clearly undermining the once neutral position of the WA.

[San Perso]

...no one in Utopia has been griefing, despite the claim in the resolution. There is no such thing as "password griefing". If Lustrous wants to pw the region he is not breaking any rules. This resolution also contains a large quantity of blatant pro-defender bias, which is clearly undermining the once neutral position of the WA.

well said

[Norstal]

Look, the AoD and AoE is quite powerful. Passwording the regions they raid is therefore unreasonable. They CAN repel the defenders if they are committed enough. Just picture the AoE and the AoD as giant ogres beating up a midget, then locking themselves in a room, and continuing to beat up the midget. Its just really unnecessary.

This is one of the instance where liberation is just. I for one is voting yes.

[Nordicus]

Well that goes both ways. The "natives" were given a fair deal, but only responded with spite, naming the raiders "cowards". I noticed you been shocked by the language of some raiders, but for respect to be given, it first must be shown. Both Ocean Pride (while present) and Acacallis has used inflammatory language.

The multitude of offensive telegrams recieved by the raiders

Yeah, how about, you know, some proof? You see, the very big difference right now is that your group's childish little insult-fest got spotted by people, whereas no-one but you two have made any claims of inappropriate language on the part of the natives (at least not that I have seen). Given that you are only now saying this in response to your own group's insults coming to light, in makes it look like you are pulling out of your nether regions.

Therefore no one in Utopia has been griefing, despite the claim in the resolution. There is no such thing as "password griefing". If Lustrous wants to pw the region he is not breaking any rules.

Yes, he is not breaking the rules... which is why he is not banned. That does not in any way, shape, or form mean that the SC is not justified in liberating the region, and continuing that line of illogical argument just shows how baseless your claims are.

[Travancore-Cochin]

You should really trust your fellow man.

While that line is addressed to The Bruce, I can safely say that I won't be trusting a bunch of evil dictators to take good care of Utopia.

I vote FOR.

[The Magic Spirit]

Again a useless resolution my nation votes AGAINST:
1) It's impossible to enforce.
2) No one is stopping the original inhabitants from founding a new region
3) Out of principle, our region does not fight other people's wars.

[A mean old man]

1) It's impossible to enforce.

Disagree.

[Charlotte Ryberg]

The honored ambassador to Charlotte Ryberg is currently for this resolution, considering the fact that I'd leave it to an open contest.

[Unibot]

Again a useless resolution my nation votes AGAINST:
1) It's impossible to enforce.
2) No one is stopping the original inhabitants from founding a new region
3) Out of principle, our region does not fight other people's wars.

I'd ask what you do find 'useful', but I get the feeling you've spammed other threads with that answer.

[Great Brutopia]

Yeah, how about, you know, some proof? You see, the very big difference right now is that your group's childish little insult-fest got spotted by people, whereas no-one but you two have made any claims of inappropriate language on the part of the natives (at least not that I have seen). Given that you are only now saying this in response to your own group's insults coming to light, in makes it look like you are pulling out of your nether regions.

While I cannot speak for other raiders, I'm not aware of a single insult posted by AoE members in the regions we have raided. I certainly never have done so and if someone did, I, as army leader, would reprimand the nation in question for doing so.
The Axis of Evil is only assisting our allies AoD in Utopia, we did not launch the invasion.

I don't know about the residents of Utopia sending offensive TGs, but I have recieved some pretty juvenile ones from other nations:

hahaha shiatty raider ur gonna get owned when the defenders kick u from this region

you guys are morons axis of evil what kind of crap is this?

and others I have already deleted, but you probably get the idea. Other raiders have complained about the same thing.

Therefore no one in Utopia has been griefing, despite the claim in the resolution. There is no such thing as "password griefing". If Lustrous wants to pw the region he is not breaking any rules.

Yes, he is not breaking the rules... which is why he is not banned. That does not in any way, shape, or form mean that the SC is not justified in liberating the region, and continuing that line of illogical argument just shows how baseless your claims are.

The resolution falsely claims that the raiders are griefing, an infrigement of NS rules, which they obviously aren't. If anything is an illogical argument, that claim is. Plus, I do not object to defenders trying to liberate regions, what fun would there be in invading if nobody tried to stop us?

[Unibot]

The resolution does not claim that raiders are infringing on the rules of NS. It merely defines password grieving, and states that the AoD is clearly using password grieving tactics (which makes sense as the definition of password grieving given in the resolution is based off of AoD's invasion of Utopia).

[Kalibarr]

This like all liberations is illegal becasue it assumes defenders will "liberate" a region and the rules clearly state that you can't create a WA police/military force, but by having the WA back up defenders it implies that there is a connection.

[Nordicus]

The resolution falsely claims that the raiders are griefing, an infrigement of NS rules, which they obviously aren't. If anything is an illogical argument, that claim is.

Re-read the legislation. At no point does it say that the griefing is against the rules. The rules change says that griefing is no longer a rules violation; it does not say that the term may never be used again.

Plus, I do not object to defenders trying to liberate regions, what fun would there be in invading if nobody tried to stop us?

And, by password-protecting the region so defenders cannot enter... that means you, and the rest of AoE and AoD, are doing exactly what you claim to not be fun, doesn't it? And if you don't object to it, then why are you fighting against it?

Edit:

This like all liberations is illegal becasue it assumes defenders will "liberate" a region and the rules clearly state that you can't create a WA police/military force, but by having the WA back up defenders it implies that there is a connection.

I don't even know where to start with this... how about the fact that neither the liberation category nor the proposal mention anything at all about a police or military force? Seriously, if you want to argue that liberations are illegal, that belongs in Technical, not SC.

[Unibotian WASC Mission]

Read again, Kalibarr, does it state anywhere that the SC "DEMANDS upon the liberation of Utopia, defenders must swarm Utopia to remove the invader forces" ? ... No, it states that the SC "CONCURS with the residents of Utopia that the continued suppression of the region by The Alliance of Dictators could only have awful consequences for Utopia".

That is a clear difference, which is legislatively important.

[Kalibarr]

Tell me you proposed this with intentions other than defenders swarming the region sometime to remove the AoD from power, this is my point in that we are starting to see defenders as the military arm of the World assembly.