[PASSED] Liberate Utopia

[Lustrous Lemurs]

Maybe we should concentrate on the actual resolution in question? I really can't see what I have done wrong. No one has been hurt by me installing a password. The only nations that actually were griefed was Monumental Liberty and Venomunous Vanguard. I can't really see that wishing to refound a region is detrimental to the region's inhabitants. Removing the pw just makes the situation more labile.

[Free Noldor States]

Password griefing is:

(a) “Password Grieving” as an invading technique, where an invader-in-disguise hides in a region long enough to accumulate a high level of regional influence, and then becomes delegate in the founderless region to immediately establish an invisible password, and begin emptying the region of those not affiliated with their invader organization,

So read posts yourself etc. etc.

And don't try and beat me with the 'Empire of Power' stick, I don't in any way endorse that. I would point out that its not griefing though, since Grub re-founded after the last natives died.

And just because you decided to universally define it as such, of course just in order to justify your own proposal, that means we all have to accept it as such? Defenders are capable and have done their own way of "Password Grieving" before, but no, of course at time it was completely fine to do it.

[Unibotian WASC Mission]

Hhhmm.. read Pages 1 and 2 of this thread before posting, buster.

[Ocean Pride]

Response to the request for cooperation by the Delegate from Alliance of Dictators:

Perhaps it would be better if you allowed me or Debenture or Acacallis to facilitate the refounding instead? After all, if you do really care about Utopia without any hidden agenda for your region then it shouldn't be the question of whether who refound it, but that the region is allow to have active and dedicated founder. One that I'm quite sure I can be and I'm quite sure that this solution would be accepted by every WA nations including defenders.

This can be easily done with the password already in place. If you and the Alliance of Dictators leave, I will refound it as a native of Utopia and ensure that it's return to activity. I will also never put password in place and that the region will remain open for all since I have no affiliation with your region.

Ocean Pride, Native of Utopia.

[Nordicus]

The commonly accepted definition of native is the one which was used before influence was introduced. You're one of the few people who don't accept the definition of that term - you mistakenly believe that being in a region automatically makes you a native of that region.

Haha, in that case you mistakenly believe that being in a region doesn't automatically make you a native of that region: just because somethings 'commonly accepted' does not make it correct. I say it's high-time, given that influence has been a feature for a while, that 'native' was reflected in the literal sense i.e. a nation currently within a region is native to it. How can you not be native to a region in which you currently reside? What is this insanity?!

So, by that logic, would the U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan be "native" Afghanistanis?

The 2nd of December 2009 The Alliance of Dictators took over the responsibility of the WA delegate of the region of Utopia. Our diligent and devoted servant, Lustrous Lemurs, become the region's new WA delegate.
Lustrous Lemurs did change the WFE, making it clear for everyone what's going on. More important, he took the necessary precautions to keep order in Utopia. This task had been vastly neglected by the previous WA delegate, Debenture. Debenture could have installed a regional password long time ago. Indeed he should have, but failed Utopia's residents by far. The only concern of Lustrous Lemurs is to keep Utopia safe from vile intrusions, thus taking his duty as a WA delegate seriously indeed.

Seriously, I don't care all that much that you guys get your jollies by invading other regions, but don't try to feed us this garbage of being the "good guys" when you perform a hostile takeover and lock the region down. It's childish to pretend you are anything but an aggressor in the situation.

The ability to 'grief' regions was a key factor in me signing-up to this game: so it doesn't necessarily drive people away!

Hmm, so you're comparing the number of players attracted by the ability to make other players miserable, and the number of players lost due to the antics of those same griefers? Gee, I wonder which side that scale leans towards?

[Reseda Island]

as someone who has invaded a region and beat the defenders while in the process, and has now retired from the war I find whats going on in Utopia to be entertaining given how much is being discussed about it

[Cinistra]

I have had puppets inside Utopia for about 1 year, and I can assure you that it has happened more in Utopia the last two weeks than in the last 1+ year. Utopia is experiencing a "revival" (of some sort) thanks to our raid there. Do we receive a friendly word for it? Nope. Just condemnation and sarcasms. Cruel, cruel NationStates .

PS. There is no really go crying smiley here. Only sadface. A pity. DS.

[Unibotian WASC Mission]

I have had puppets inside Utopia for about 1 year, and I can assure you that it has happened more in Utopia the last two weeks than in the last 1+ year. Utopia is experiencing a "revival" (of some sort) thanks to our raid there. Do we receive a friendly word for it? Nope. Just condemnation and sarcasms. Cruel, cruel NationStates .

PS. There is no really go crying smiley here. Only sadface. A pity. DS.

Ahem.. we will see what kind of a "revival" this is when the region is held as a trophy.

A liberation is the only hope Utopia has for a "revival".

[Martyrdoom]

I have had puppets inside Utopia for about 1 year, and I can assure you that it has happened more in Utopia the last two weeks than in the last 1+ year. Utopia is experiencing a "revival" (of some sort) thanks to our raid there. Do we receive a friendly word for it? Nope. Just condemnation and sarcasms. Cruel, cruel NationStates .

PS. There is no really go crying smiley here. Only sadface. A pity. DS.

Ahem.. we will see what kind of a "revival" this is when the region is held as a trophy.

A liberation is the only hope Utopia has for a "revival".

Better bang it full of defenders then - murder the corpse!

[Reseda Island]

ive visited utopia a total of twice with two different nations, no one ever spoke.

[Lustrous Lemurs]

I have had puppets inside Utopia for about 1 year, and I can assure you that it has happened more in Utopia the last two weeks than in the last 1+ year. Utopia is experiencing a "revival" (of some sort) thanks to our raid there. Do we receive a friendly word for it? Nope. Just condemnation and sarcasms. Cruel, cruel NationStates .

PS. There is no really go crying smiley here. Only sadface. A pity. DS.

Ahem.. we will see what kind of a "revival" this is when the region is held as a trophy.

A liberation is the only hope Utopia has for a "revival".

What you call a "liberation" sir, is nothing else than hacking. A crime.
Passwords are installed in order to keep intruders out. Lustrous Lemurs is a "native" of Utopia.
Sir, you only post accusations, which has no basis in reality. Let's take the "trophy" claim of yours,
no proof exists that Utopia is in anyway a trophy region.

[Lagaphroaig]

Liberate Utopia

A resolution to strike down Delegate-imposed barriers to free entry in a region. My editing. Nothing in the text refers to "free entry". The same mistake as in "Liberate The Jedi Council". Shouldn't the text of resolutions have any connection with the objective of it?

[Great Brutopia]

"Password griefing"? Don't make me laugh. What about "defenders" who eject the residents of a region they have captured and use the WFE to advertise their own home region? Are they also "griefers"?

If the new management of Utopia wants to refound I can't see any reason why it shouldn't. Surely the residents can sort this issue out by themselves, as Lustrous Lemurs is trying to achieve with his negotiations. There isn't any need for the WA to intervene.

[Martyrdoom]

"Password griefing"? Don't make me laugh. What about "defenders" who eject the residents of a region they have captured and use the WFE to advertise their own home region? Are they also "griefers"?

If the new management of Utopia wants to refound I can't see any reason why it shouldn't. Surely the residents can sort this issue out by themselves, as Lustrous Lemurs is trying to achieve with his negotiations. There isn't any need for the WA to intervene.

Not to mention when the 'defending' of regions - and the securing of delegacies - 'randomly' coincides with certain votes taking place in the SC.

[Ananke]

"Password griefing"? Don't make me laugh. What about "defenders" who eject the residents of a region they have captured and use the WFE to advertise their own home region? Are they also "griefers"?

Would be nice with some examples instead of baseless accusations.

Btw. from what I can see both Acacallis and Ocean Pride have posted here about their opposition to Utopia being refounded by the Alliance of Dictators. Since Lustrous Lemurs is a member of The Alliance of Dictators and only gained the delegacy with the help of outside nations he's clearly an invader delegate and not someone internally elected.

[Martyrdoom]

"Password griefing"? Don't make me laugh. What about "defenders" who eject the residents of a region they have captured and use the WFE to advertise their own home region? Are they also "griefers"?

Would be nice with some examples instead of baseless accusations.

Btw. from what I can see both Acacallis and Ocean Pride have posted here about their opposition to Utopia being refounded by the Alliance of Dictators. Since Lustrous Lemurs is a member of The Alliance of Dictators and only gained the delegacy with the help of outside nations he's clearly an invader delegate and not someone internally elected.

I'll throw in the two that come easily to mind: Belgium and Feudal Japan. Their respective WFE's were just an exercise in mutual back-patting. Not too dissimilar from traditional raiders.

Besides the fact that the Alliance of Dictators might not be inclined to democratic processes, you said there has to be an internal election? Who says this has to be so? Although I suppose who gets the most endorsements kinda does the job and fits the design of an election...

[Ananke]

Ah, you guys are still sore that Macedon/Mencer didn't manage to kick everyone out of Belgium and turn it into a empty trophy region? Yes, it must be a shame to see that Belgium still have a thriving community of native Belgian/Dutch players.

As for Feudal Japan, that one, which I'm sure you're aware, got invaded and locked down by Groznia. Now it's back in the hands of the nations who founded the regions years ago.

[Martyrdoom]

Ah, you guys are still sore that Macedon/Mencer didn't manage to kick everyone out of Belgium and turn it into a empty trophy region? Yes, it must be a shame to see that Belgium still have a thriving community of native Belgian/Dutch players.

As for Feudal Japan, that one, which I'm sure you're aware, got invaded and locked down by Groznia. Now it's back in the hands of the nations who founded the regions years ago.

With due respect, that's a nice story. If I remember right (if!), was it confirmed from the 'horses mouth' that the intention was to indeed acquire an 'empty-trophy' - I thought the objective was to refound the region? Passwording a region to secure its refounding is a commonly accepted practice!

So, changing their WFE's from invader back-slapping to 'defender' back-slapping is a massive difference to those 'natives'? Plus, these regions were griefed to prevent/rectify the previous griefing. We'll just brush that under the carpet!

[Lustrous Lemurs]

"Password griefing"? Don't make me laugh. What about "defenders" who eject the residents of a region they have captured and use the WFE to advertise their own home region? Are they also "griefers"?

Would be nice with some examples instead of baseless accusations.

Btw. from what I can see both Acacallis and Ocean Pride have posted here about their opposition to Utopia being refounded by the Alliance of Dictators. Since Lustrous Lemurs is a member of The Alliance of Dictators and only gained the delegacy with the help of outside nations he's clearly an invader delegate and not someone internally elected.

Internally elected? No, I wasn't. Who says that the the only proper WA delegate is the ones that got elected. Governmental styles is up to the players. When defenders rush in, is their WA delegate
internal elected? No, they endorse one of their own, change the WFE, in order to use it as their private publicity stunt. You behave no different than us, despite your propaganda for the contrary.

I also ponder this: why bother to "liberate" the so-called "natives" of Utopia. I have resided there for some time, and it has, until now been highly inactive. There has been two WA delegates before me (while I was there). These were: Sir Lans and Debenture. Neither were "elected". Usually players endorse whom they want without prior elections. This was the case in Utopia. Now, Sir Lans did CTE, Debenture succeeding him, due to endorsement from 1 - one - nation, Chubby Little Elves. When Chubby Little Elves did CTE, Debenture lost his WA delegacy, as there was no one left with a WA membership. Later on, after we arrived, Ocean Pride did become a WA member, and endorsed Debenture. Before The Alliance of Dictators raided Utopia the newest post was 200 days old. So, do you really think that Utopia deserves it's liberation when the two previous WA delegates didn't bother to protect them. It's a surprise that Utopia wasn't raided earlier. They had it coming.

Also, the divide between "natives" and "outsiders" is artificial. There is only nations, and to discriminate nations' rights do to origin is in fact racist, and the basis of ethnic cleansing. That's the preferred method of "defenders", rush inside a region eject and ban nations according to their origin.

[Ananke]

Uhm, you're arguing against something I never said, but don't let that stop you.

Internally elected = becoming delegate with the endorsements from nations who've been in the region a while (e.i. what I'd term native) and not by endorsements from people who've just moved to the region.

As for the activity in Utopia, some people prefer staying in a sleepy region. That doesn't give you as invaders any kind of moral right to disrupt their region and refound it over their objections.

In regards to your talk of ethnic cleansing and racism in regards to natives in game, way to go overboard there.

[Martyrdoom]

Uhm, you're arguing against something I never said, but don't let that stop you.

Internally elected = becoming delegate with the endorsements from nations who've been in the region a while (e.i. what I'd term native) and not by endorsements from people who've just moved to the region.

As for the activity in Utopia, some people prefer staying in a sleepy region. That doesn't give you as invaders any kind of moral right to disrupt their region and refound it over their objections.

In regards to your talk of ethnic cleansing and racism in regards to natives in game, way to go overboard there.

As I've stated in another SC thread:

(Taken from http://www.nationstates.net/page=influence)

Obsoleted Rules

As mentioned above, "Invasion Griefing" rules have been abolished. The forum rules sticky has been updated to reflect this, with the following old rules removed:

* Deleted: A distinction was drawn between "invaders" and "natives," and different rules applied to each.
* Deleted: "Invader Delegates" were prohibited from ejecting more than a certain number (usually 10%) of residents, and required to unban them immediately afterward.
* Deleted: If an "invader Delegate" password-protected the region, she was required to distribute that password to residents via telegram.
* Deleted: Delegates were prohibited from ejecting residents in order to re-Found a region.

These rules no longer apply.

[Lustrous Lemurs]

Uhm, you're arguing against something I never said, but don't let that stop you.

Internally elected = becoming delegate with the endorsements from nations who've been in the region a while (e.i. what I'd term native) and not by endorsements from people who've just moved to the region.

As for the activity in Utopia, some people prefer staying in a sleepy region. That doesn't give you as invaders any kind of moral right to disrupt their region and refound it over their objections.

In regards to your talk of ethnic cleansing and racism in regards to natives in game, way to go overboard there.

A the "right" term. I doesn't denounce their right to be docile. However, they haven't bother to save themselves. After all, there has been two previous delegates who could have pw protected Utopia long time ago. It doesn't take much activity to install a pw. I have stayed in Utopia for awhile, which give me as much right as the others to be a delegate. If you bother to read the FAQ, a WA delegate can use the powers given to him/her. I still question the term "native", which divides people according to origin, as grants rights accordingly. Nothing I would be proud of.

[Goobergunchia]

Martyrdoom, it's true that "native" is no longer a valid term for purposes of discussing the legality of an invasion. That doesn't mean it has lost all meaning. While you're welcome to hold this view yourself, I doubt you'd find much support for the idea that every nation in the game has equal rights to control over the region.

f you bother to read the FAQ, a WA delegate can use the powers given to him/her.

Emphasis added. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

EDIT: italics seem more obvious for emphasis in quotes than bold

[Martyrdoom]

Martyrdoom, it's true that "native" is no longer a valid term for purposes of discussing the legality of an invasion. That doesn't mean it has lost all meaning. While you're welcome to hold this view yourself, I doubt you'd find much support for the idea that every nation in the game has equal rights to control over the region.

But are we actually discussing the 'legality' of an invasion? To my mind, there's no such thing as an illegal invasion to begin with.

While I don't want to indulge the use of 'native' myself - I think 'nation' is fit for purpose - I would just define a native as a nation which currently resides in a given region.

As for those equal rights you speak of, isn't it already one WA-nation=one potential endorsement?

[Nordicus]

While I don't want to indulge the use of 'native' myself - I think 'nation' is fit for purpose - I would just define a native as a nation which currently resides in a given region.

And I reiterate, by that definition, wouldn't the U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan be considered "native" Afghanistanis? Your definition is patently absurd; you don't become a "native" by violently entering a region, you become an invader. That is as true here as it is in the real-world.