NationStates

Posted: **Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:08 pm**

Commend Harmoneia
A resolution to recognize outstanding contribution by a nation or region.

Category: Commendation | Nominee: Harmoneia | Proposed by: Milograd

Description: The Security Council:

Believing that dedication and contribution to the success of communities is an act that fulfills the Security Council's goals of promoting international goodwill and peace, and that nations that achieve that aim are deserving of commendation,

Acknowledging that the nation of Harmoneia has a storied history of dedication and contribution to the region of Lazarus, that the region was the original region were new nations reformed after ceasing to exist, and that Harmoneia's efforts there include, but are by no means limited to:

Being a member of the regional community for over eight years at the time of this resolution's writing,
Serving as the region's WA Delegate five times, which is more than any other nation in Lazarene history,
Spearheading the efforts as WA Delegate in 2005 that led to Lazarus achieving regional forum activity records that stood until 2013, which is significant because it is an accomplishment that starkly contrasted the previous status quo of inactivity in Lazarus, and showed the potential for life in the "region of revival",
Serving as the community's administrator on all three of its historical forums, and thus being responsible for maintaining and preserving a core home to Lazarus' community,
Contributing to the preservation of Lazarus's 10-year history by maintaining the forums and recording information in descriptive accounts that detail the region's past,
Being a co-founding member state of the modern government of Lazarus, the People's Republic, which has been responsible for setting hitherto unseen levels of success for Lazarus in the fields of cultural, military, political, and legislative activity,

Realizing that Harmoneia's contributions and activities extend beyond Lazarus, and that Harmoneia created the region of Jethnea, a region that at one point had over 300 nations,

Noting that that Jethnea is a founding member of the Founderless Regions Alliance, which is an organization whose member states have been been previously commended by the Security Council for their activities in defense of the world's regions,

Appreciating Harmoneia's long career of defending regions against invasions, and the nation's service in organizations such as the Founderless Regions Alliance ("FRA"), the United Defenders League ("UDL"), and the Lazarene Liberation Army ("LLA"),

Affirming that the above stated actions constitute dedication and contribution to the success of communities both big and small in the world,

Hereby Commends Harmoneia.

Co-authored by Hobbesistan and Kazmr.

Posted: **Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:09 pm**

Aye! Harmoneia is one of the nicest and hard-working players to play the game. A great nominee for commendation. This should have been done a long time ago.

Posted: **Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:10 pm**

I am definitely supportive: Harm has been a great contributor to the UDL in the past and deserves this.

Posted: **Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:10 pm**

Well, I obviously support it.

Posted: **Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:13 pm**

I might have supported if if there was any chance of public discussion or debate here on the forums prior to submission ...

However, asking for international support where no international input was sought seems somewhat counterintuitive to me. Anyhow, I've voted against, accordingly.

Posted: **Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:16 pm**

Mousebumples wrote:I might have supported if if there was any chance of public discussion or debate here on the forums prior to submission ...

That's framing the debate away from the content of the resolution to something irrelevant to the content of the resolution, purely for political reasons I'm sure. Good work! :roll:

Posted: **Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:33 pm**

Unibot III wrote:
Mousebumples wrote:I might have supported if if there was any chance of public discussion or debate here on the forums prior to submission ...

That's framing the debate away from the content of the resolution to something irrelevant to the content of the resolution, purely for political reasons I'm sure. Good work!

If by "political reasons" you mean, a lack of interest in supporting those who don't even bother to post a cursory draft on the forums prior to posting - you're absolutely right!

From what I know of Milo, I like him as a person and a player. I've also offered feedback and suggestions to him in the thread he created for a GA proposal. Although, I do love how I've magically changed from being an evil AOer to now being an evil Euro-er ... or whatever you were trying to imply there. :palm:

Not everything is political "out to get you," or whatever, Unibot. Sometimes the grass really is green - even if you'd rather believe that what I'm saying isn't what I'm really thinking. If I had more time tonight, I'd go pull other votes that I've cast in a similar manner, but this my general MO ... and has been for as long as I've been a WAD, so ... for years.

Bottom line: No thread prior to submission? Mouse votes against.

If there had been a thread, then maybe you would have had some political arguments to make with regards to Euro's stance on the matter. But my vote in Euro was purely because of the lack of a thread.

Like I said originally: if the author of a given proposal can't be bothered to post and seek international input prior to submission of a proposal, why should I (or the rest of the international community) be bothered to support their proposal?

Posted: **Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:36 pm**

Like I said originally: if the author of a given proposal can't be bothered to post and seek international input prior to submission of a proposal, why should I (or the rest of the international community) be bothered to support their proposal?

Because the proposal is good and the nominee is deserving?

This implies the point of a proposal is to be vetted publicly (in what is a political warzone). It's been vetted by a lot of capable SC writers. The point is to commend a good author, not draft it for weeks on end so a few Euroers can complain about how she's a member of the FRA.

Posted: **Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:13 pm**

Unibot III wrote:
Like I said originally: if the author of a given proposal can't be bothered to post and seek international input prior to submission of a proposal, why should I (or the rest of the international community) be bothered to support their proposal?

Because the proposal is good and the nominee is deserving?

This implies the point of a proposal is to be vetted publicly (in what is a political warzone). It's been vetted by a lot of capable SC writers. The point is to commend a good author, not draft it for weeks on end so a few Euroers can complain about how she's a member of the FRA.

I'm not speaking on behalf of Mouse, but when a resolution goes to vote without behind posted on the forums, I'm also inclined to lean against it. It's presumptuous of an author to assume that they don't need public vetting prior to proposing a resolution - this in itself is disrespectful towards the public. Even if there's an instance where a resolution is put to vote without first being posted on the forums and I had no objections, I would still feel like the author is dismissing the common forum user as useless or irrelevant, which is contrary to the entire system of posting on the forums in the first place. Plus, it sets a horrible precedent of authors submitting resolutions that they (or worse, a private group) deem ready to submit without input from a more open medium. Furthermore, nowhere did Mouse imply that the point of a proposal is to be vetted properly, and frankly, I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. She said that a proposal she be vetted by viewers on the forum, which doesn't mean that proposals exist for that very purpose.

So I'm glad that you think the resolution is good and the nominee is deserving, but you're not the great arbiter of what constitutes a good proposal, so don't go around claiming that this deviation from the established norm is justified because you've deemed it worthy. And don't mar the names or reputations of others with contrived political scandals in an effort to make your argument seem like it's coherent.

Posted: **Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:02 am**

I really like my interactions with Harm and have been a liaison to her region before. However, I am concerned at her inability to hold her region, Jethnea, which has flourished and died at least two times in the past, leaving her faithful residence completely in the lurch. I don't think boom and bust model employed by Harm is particularly representative of a commendeded nation and, despite her other achievements, I cannot vote for this. I will likely ABSTAIN from voting, although I am sure it will pass whatever I do. I'll be happy when it does.

Posted: **Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:13 am**

Sciongrad wrote:
Unibot III wrote:
Because the proposal is good and the nominee is deserving?

This implies the point of a proposal is to be vetted publicly (in what is a political warzone). It's been vetted by a lot of capable SC writers. The point is to commend a good author, not draft it for weeks on end so a few Euroers can complain about how she's a member of the FRA.

I'm not speaking on behalf of Mouse, but when a resolution goes to vote without behind posted on the forums, I'm also inclined to lean against it. It's presumptuous of an author to assume that they don't need public vetting prior to proposing a resolution - this in itself is disrespectful towards the public. Even if there's an instance where a resolution is put to vote without first being posted on the forums and I had no objections, I would still feel like the author is dismissing the common forum user as useless or irrelevant, which is contrary to the entire system of posting on the forums in the first place. Plus, it sets a horrible precedent of authors submitting resolutions that they (or worse, a private group) deem ready to submit without input from a more open medium. Furthermore, nowhere did Mouse imply that the point of a proposal is to be vetted properly, and frankly, I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. She said that a proposal she be vetted by viewers on the forum, which doesn't mean that proposals exist for that very purpose.

So I'm glad that you think the resolution is good and the nominee is deserving, but you're not the great arbiter of what constitutes a good proposal, so don't go around claiming that this deviation from the established norm is justified because you've deemed it worthy. And don't mar the names or reputations of others with contrived political scandals in an effort to make your argument seem like it's coherent.

The Security Council already has a strong precedent of not vetting publicly. I know I vetted several resolutions in private because everything is so politically sensitive and you're essentially losing the strategic advantage of surprise by drafting publicly.

Posted: **Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:25 am**

Unibot III wrote:
Sciongrad wrote:
I'm not speaking on behalf of Mouse, but when a resolution goes to vote without behind posted on the forums, I'm also inclined to lean against it. It's presumptuous of an author to assume that they don't need public vetting prior to proposing a resolution - this in itself is disrespectful towards the public. Even if there's an instance where a resolution is put to vote without first being posted on the forums and I had no objections, I would still feel like the author is dismissing the common forum user as useless or irrelevant, which is contrary to the entire system of posting on the forums in the first place. Plus, it sets a horrible precedent of authors submitting resolutions that they (or worse, a private group) deem ready to submit without input from a more open medium. Furthermore, nowhere did Mouse imply that the point of a proposal is to be vetted properly, and frankly, I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. She said that a proposal she be vetted by viewers on the forum, which doesn't mean that proposals exist for that very purpose.

So I'm glad that you think the resolution is good and the nominee is deserving, but you're not the great arbiter of what constitutes a good proposal, so don't go around claiming that this deviation from the established norm is justified because you've deemed it worthy. And don't mar the names or reputations of others with contrived political scandals in an effort to make your argument seem like it's coherent.

The Security Council already has a strong precedent of not vetting publicly. I know I vetted several resolutions in private because everything is so politically sensitive and you're essentially losing the strategic advantage of surprise by drafting publicly.

Most of the early SC resolution were vetted semi-privately by those on http://s1.zetaboards.com/The_Security_Council/index/ afaik?

Posted: **Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:52 am**

We're going to side with Mousebumples on this one, although for slightly different reasons. At least if it is vetted here, the full information is available as to why the nation is being commended/condemned. We're sure Harmoneia is probably worthy of commendation (you put Condemn in the OP, by the way), but you can only fit so much in a proposal, given the character limit.

For that reason we are abstaining for now

Posted: **Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:54 am**

the region of Lazarus, that the region was the original region were new nations reformed after ceasing to exist,

OOC: Looks too much like metagaming for me.

EDIT: also, should be "where" rather than "were".

I can see the sense in drafting Liberations offsite without threads here, but don't see any reason why that's a good idea for Commendations and Condemnations too.

Posted: **Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:24 am**

"Were" is an unfortunate oversight, but otherwise there are no typos or consequential grammar errors in the resolution (though we had a debate about whether or not a nation is "new" if it is reformed. We ended up saying "new" to comply with R4 because a nation that ceases to exist ceases to be a nation when it exists, and is thus new when it is created again. Saying "old" would more so suggest that the player is old, rather than the nation.).

"Metagamy" awkardness is essentially forced upon us by R4, but "sinker region" would've been no better. Not identifying Lazarus' special qualities would be equally, if not more so, problematic though.

Posted: **Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:24 am**

Milograd wrote:Metagamy" awkardness is essentially forced upon us by R4, but "sinker region" would've been no better. Not identifying Lazarus' special qualities would be equally, if not more so, problematic though.

OOC: The thing is, if one of my nations has an identified place in a particular region (especially if that's shown on a regional map) but I inadvertently let it CTE temporarily, the whole process of "rebirth" in Lazarus/Balder/Osiris and subsequent transfer back to its old location via a fleet of black helicopters is only OOC because IC the nation -- although it might briefly have gone incommunicado -- actually remained in its "historical" location all along... and thus, to me at least, any mention of nations being "reborn" elsewhere than in their old regions (unless a migration was actually RPed) looks like a 'meta-gaming' reference to the game's OOC mechanics.

Posted: **Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:30 am**

I think before we examine what the proposal actually says, let's first note who posted this: MILOGRAD! The one who threatened to destroy The South Pacific 8 months ago; for the SC to approve something written by such a tyrant is a travesty of international proportions and an injustice to all who suffered under his illegitimate rule(and even BEFORE TSP, he's already been condemned twice...think about that).

Posted: **Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:59 am**

I don't understand how we're commending someone allegedly primarily for their contributions to the activity and community of Lazarus, when the record of that region is one of inactivity and irrelevance over vast swathes of the 2005-2013 period which is under question. Furthermore, Harmoneia disappeared for significant periods of this time anyway - it's not like she was around regularly for even most of the period. I don't see how anyone can commend Harmoneia for her efforts towards creating an active or vibrant community of Lazarus when that region has performed so badly in those departments. And it's not a matter of it being because its a sinker - cause we've seen more forum activity in the past 2 years from for instance Balder, than the past 7 in Lazarus. Will the author also be commending Rach? I think not.

The truth is we're not commending her for her service to Lazarus - cause we'd have done that years ago if that was worthy of commendation. We're commending her for handing Lazarus to Milograd when she got the chance to, a few months ago. Which interestingly despite not being mentioned in the text, is probably the most significant thing she has ever done anyway.

Now, Milograd may actually have the skill and intuition to make something substantial of Lazarus. Qualities which Jethnea's dismal performance as a region shows that Harmoneia clearly lacks. There are countless other uncommended defenders who have built up better regions than Jethnea, or contributed more to central defender institutions like FRA/UDL. And also defenders who have served with merit in GCRs. Admittedly not many have done all of these things, but I would say better to have done one thing with merit than several with insignificance.

Such a record of image conscious trophy chasing above actual substance probably places one in a strong position for a Commendation though, so I guess it is inevitable. However, it is just ironic that the real breakthrough in Harmoneia's journey to Saintdom, has come from doing something in such exact contradiction to her supposed past of "promoting international goodwill and peace", ie. the Lazarus Purges.

Posted: **Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:48 am**

We have decided to vote against this motion.

The author of this resolution should have thought about what he was actually proposing. The title on the proposal itself reads, "Condemn Harmoneia", but the motion the resolution is attempting to make is a commendation. This, along with a substantial amount of awkward grammar errors throughout the resolution, has led us to believe the author is of no credit whatsoever.

Posted: **Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:54 am**

Despite a controversial author, the Sovan delegation finds this to be a well written piece of a nation deserving of a commendation. We vote AYE.

Posted: **Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:00 am**

North East Somerset wrote:-snip-

Someone's a little mad that he and his buddies got kicked out...

Posted: **Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:06 am**

We don't understand why we're commending merely one nation through this.

In this world, we're meant to be kind and help our fellow nations/regions, and if you need to get commemorated for merely helping a fellow nation/region, then that's pretty sad that you can't just live with feeling like a good nation.

I do agree that nations need to be commemorated by their community, but this is the world (and also what you have regions for), and the security council, forum, and resolutions are meant to be a world observance, rather than a place for one or a few nations to get a nod from. This, in our mind, is a waste of the Security Council's time.

Nay.

Posted: **Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:35 pm**

Harm is great, for.

Posted: **Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:50 pm**

North East Somerset wrote:I don't understand how we're commending someone allegedly primarily for their contributions to the activity and community of Lazarus, when the record of that region is one of inactivity and irrelevance over vast swathes of the 2005-2013 period which is under question. Furthermore, Harmoneia disappeared for significant periods of this time anyway - it's not like she was around regularly for even most of the period. I don't see how anyone can commend Harmoneia for her efforts towards creating an active or vibrant community of Lazarus when that region has performed so badly in those departments. And it's not a matter of it being because its a sinker - cause we've seen more forum activity in the past 2 years from for instance Balder, than the past 7 in Lazarus. Will the author also be commending Rach? I think not.

The truth is we're not commending her for her service to Lazarus - cause we'd have done that years ago if that was worthy of commendation. We're commending her for handing Lazarus to Milograd when she got the chance to, a few months ago. Which interestingly despite not being mentioned in the text, is probably the most significant thing she has ever done anyway.

Now, Milograd may actually have the skill and intuition to make something substantial of Lazarus. Qualities which Jethnea's dismal performance as a region shows that Harmoneia clearly lacks. There are countless other uncommended defenders who have built up better regions than Jethnea, or contributed more to central defender institutions like FRA/UDL. And also defenders who have served with merit in GCRs. Admittedly not many have done all of these things, but I would say better to have done one thing with merit than several with insignificance.

Such a record of image conscious trophy chasing above actual substance probably places one in a strong position for a Commendation though, so I guess it is inevitable. However, it is just ironic that the real breakthrough in Harmoneia's journey to Saintdom, has come from doing something in such exact contradiction to her supposed past of "promoting international goodwill and peace", ie. the Lazarus Purges.

Context: North East Somerset was banned from Lazarus with Harmoneia's support, because it was discovered he subverted Lazarus for the purposes of colonizing Lazarus. He's a bitter loser.

Posted: **Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:36 pm**

North East Somerset was banned from Lazarus with Harmoneia's support, because it was discovered he subverted Lazarus for the purposes of colonizing Lazarus. He's a bitter loser.

Ha, what nonsense. "Discovered" by whom? And on what basis I have "subverted" Lazarus? That's not a context, it's just hilariously bad propaganda. :lol:

I'm not a bitter loser. I'm perfectly happy to see Lazarus thrive under new ownership and with a sense of purpose it clearly lacked beforehand. I just think it's pathetic you just can't let go of the moral high ground and admit the truth. It was a baseless purge of harmless imperialists who had been part of the region for many years, and their removal enabled the installation of a defender dictatorship - which is the only reason you support it. End of story.

NationStates

[PASSED] Commend Harmoneia

[PASSED] Commend Harmoneia

Look at who the author is!