[Passed]: Ban on Ex Post Facto Laws

[Train Speak]

It appears that there are nations who prefer order over personal freedoms, and the ability to gain a free pass after an oversight in previous legislation.

Bringing material from General Sociology to the mix, I would like to point out that sometimes issues arise with cultural lag. Train Speak firmly holds the opinion that someone who does something unethical and/or harmful just because there isn't a law against his or her specific activity should still be punished for his or her wrong actions.

Train Speak will most likely support and vote for this resolution, though. I simply had to bring that up since it was my first thought reading it. Maybe Train Speak will just outlaw any advancement in technology to prevent any issues (:

[Vast RWING Conspiracy]

... then we must also determine that those who are punished according to the law valid at the time of punishment must carry out the remainder of their sentence even if the law that placed them in that situation is no longer valid.

What you're saying is, if someone commits an illegal act, and the law making it illegal is later repealed, they could still be required to serve the remainder of their sentence since the act actually was illegal when they committed it? Why wouldn't that still be the case? Now granted, most nation's legal systems would opt to release such persons in those circumstances, but that doesn't have anything to do with ex post facto laws.

David Watts
Ambassador
The Dominion of New Leicestershire

That is exactly my case. What I think should have been included in such a resolution is the guarantee that those punished while the law was active would be required to complete their sentence if said law were repealed. In its current form this resolution deals only with criminalizing acts after the fact, and does not adequately deal with decriminalizing acts after the fact. Amnesty laws are, in fact, a form of ex post facto law, and as such, I feel that any resolution banning ex post facto law must address both facets equally.

The resolution at vote, what it addresses currently, is extremely well written apart from section iii being ex post facto itself. It just doesn't cover enough.

[New Leicestershire]

What I think should have been included in such a resolution is the guarantee that those punished while the law was active would be required to complete their sentence if said law were repealed.

What you're talking about aren't ex post facto laws though. This resolution is limited to only dealing with ex post facto laws and I can see no reason to have included the issues you speak of in it.

If you feel those issues need to be addressed then I encourage you to write a resolution dealing with them.

David Watts
Ambassador
The Dominion of New Leicestershire

[Glen-Rhodes]

That is exactly my case. What I think should have been included in such a resolution is the guarantee that those punished while the law was active would be required to complete their sentence if said law were repealed. In its current form this resolution deals only with criminalizing acts after the fact, and does not adequately deal with decriminalizing acts after the fact. Amnesty laws are, in fact, a form of ex post facto law, and as such, I feel that any resolution banning ex post facto law must address both facets equally.

As the ambassador that first brought up the point of amnesty laws, I assure you that the resolution addresses them adequately by not addressing them at all. The definition of 'ex post facto' in this provision does not affect the legality of amnesty laws in member nations.

Dr. Bradford William Castro

Ambassador-at-Large,
Permanent Chief of Mission for World Assembly affairs,
the Commonwealth of Glen-Rhodes

[Vast RWING Conspiracy]

What I think should have been included in such a resolution is the guarantee that those punished while the law was active would be required to complete their sentence if said law were repealed.

What you're talking about aren't ex post facto laws though. This resolution is limited to only dealing with ex post facto laws and I can see no reason to have included the issues you speak of in it.

If you feel those issues need to be addressed then I encourage you to write a resolution dealing with them.

David Watts
Ambassador
The Dominion of New Leicestershire

I very much appreciate the lively debate created by this forum. It has certainly made me think more about the process of law than I have in a very long time. I am, however, still convinced of my position but will beleaguer the point no longer. My vote has been recorded, and I will, of course, follow all laws of the WA as required should the measure pass.

Again, respect to everyone here!

Founder and DA MAN of The Vast RWING Conspiracy

[Johz]

Let's say that, in an imaginary nation, a program of reform for the offender can be considered a punishment.
As such, if a citizen were to take a legal substance, and it were to later become illegal, he could be put into a program of reform. Would this counter your laws, or would our fantasy nation be able to find a loophole.
Johz accepts that this is really just nitpicking, but the complete disection of any law is very important.

[New Leicestershire]

As such, if a citizen were to take a legal substance, and it were to later become illegal, he could be put into a program of reform.

Well first, would this hypothetical citizen still be using the substance when he is placed in the "program of reform"? Or would he be placed in the program for something he did, say, as a teenager but is no longer doing?

David Watts
Ambassador
The Dominion of New Leicestershire

[Vast RWING Conspiracy]

As such, if a citizen were to take a legal substance, and it were to later become illegal, he could be put into a program of reform.

Well first, would this hypothetical citizen still be using the substance when he is placed in the "program of reform"? Or would he be placed in the program for something he did, say, as a teenager but is no longer doing?

David Watts
Ambassador
The Dominion of New Leicestershire

Also, if this substance is known to be habit forming, would this hypothetical citizen be require to quit "cold turkey" or would there be some sort of grand-fathering to allow weening off the substance once it is made illegal? At what level of addiction would the law allow gradual elimination of use; or would it allow grand-fathering at all? So many directions to take this one........I like it.

Founder and DA MAN of The Vast RWING Conspiracy

[Mousebumples]

Bringing material from General Sociology to the mix, I would like to point out that sometimes issues arise with cultural lag. Train Speak firmly holds the opinion that someone who does something unethical and/or harmful just because there isn't a law against his or her specific activity should still be punished for his or her wrong actions.

Again, it is hard to speak specifically to this (and my legal advisor is, naturally, out of the office for the day), but there are a number of potential legal categories into which something like this could qualify. I defer to those who have their legal advisors at the ready for more specific details, but medical professionals are often subject to ethics laws (or at least they can be pursued regarding negligent actions). Public indecency may be a pursuable crime for some unethical (or culturally harmful) actions.

To my understanding, many nations' laws are work a nice balance between being detailed enough to make clear what actions are illegal and general enough so as to not limit what similar sorts of infractions would be punished under the law. Certainly, your nation may have much more detailed laws - in which case, you may want to look into either amending or adding to those laws, should this proposal pass this legislative body.

Yours (again, without my legal advisor),

[Enn]

"Upon my governments' instructions, and to my own personal satisfaction, I shall now cast the vote of Bears Armed Mission for this piece of legislation."


Borrin o Redwood,
Chairbear, Bears Armed Mission at the World Assembly
for
The High Council of Clans,
The Confederated Clans of the Free Bears of Bears Armed.

Depending on exactly when Delegacy switches over, this should make things significantly easier in the International Democratic Union, since I'm casting Enn's vote FOR as well.

Stephanie Fulton,
WA Delegate for not much longer
WA Ambassador for Enn

[New Leicestershire]

The following is an account of a couple’s use of Amanita muscaria mushrooms in the neo-ritual context of sex, magick and religious role-playing. The effects are not fully described; as it is the unusual context the trip takes place in that needs to be explained.

My wife and I recently found some Amanita mushrooms while hiking. There was lots of the red variety (Amanita muscaria) as well as many ranging from yellow to orange (Amanita muscaria var Formosa). We gathered a fairly large amount of the red-capped variety only. We did some research and decided to heat them at 125 degrees (to decarboxylate the ibotenic acid into muscimole) until they dried. That night I tested a small amount while my wife was on standby. I felt almost no effects at all. 3 nights later I doubled the dose and felt slight but defiantly noticeable effects (inability to focus eyes, a slight difficulty speaking clearly and coherently, a vague sense of psychedelic energy just flirting under the surface). There was slight nausea.

3 nights after that I ingested a dose that was 3 times the size of the first night. This time I could actually say I was ‘intoxicated’. My vision was somewhat fuzzy and I felt ‘swirly’ i.e. my balance was off (but this was pleasant). I felt uncomfortably nauseous but a little marijuana took care of this and potentiated the Amanita. After sometime I felt relaxed and lethargic. Music seemed much more psychoactive than usual.

The next night my wife tried a dose double the size of my first test. She reported similar effects and intensity. One week later we both decided we were ready for the real experience. We are both into mysticism, magick, neo-paganism (we have an agnostic Jungian/pagan/chaos-magick attitude on the matter) and decided to work the Amanita experience into a neo-ritual framework. You can call it experimental psychological exercise if you like, or you can call it magick or religion; none of these models is completely correct or incorrect. We had a rough outline of the ritual activity we intended to conduct with room for improvisation upon the way the ‘spirit’ moved us. My wife took a good amount this time. After about an hour or so the bodily effects were in full effect. Besides blurry vision and limb lethargy, she had a very upset stomach. I prepared some cannabis for her and we shared a joint. Then I had her lay on the bed where I massaged her with some therapeutic scented oils.

She never felt so much enjoyment from the sense of smell before, she said. She felt the scent as if it were a beautiful ‘atmosphere’ co-occupying our room. Music was very effective to hear and she could feel the sound as if it were currents of air moving in the room. After some time we realized she had no ill stomach effects. She told me she “felt the ritual coming on” and told me to leave her for a few minutes. I left the room while she prepared herself and told me I should prepare myself as well. I smoked a larger joint (I have a low tolerance for cannabis, so this immediately put me in an altered state) and I sat in meditation and did some breathing exercise. I felt like a worshipper in ecstatic prayer. She then called me back in the bedroom. She sat upon the bed wearing her black robe that she only wears in ritual. I crawled to her on my hands and knees, addressing her as the Goddess, professing my love, adoration and utter worship of her. She spoke softly and enigmatically as if she were the Goddess herself.

After some ritual flirting I was allowed to crawl right up to her feet. There I kissed and licked her toes and feet, then I made my way up her legs, lingering long and worshipfully. I was talking to her between kisses, confessing my sins, professing my worshipful love of here, and to my wife in whom she was incarnated. Finally I made it to her yoni. She parted her robe just enough for me to go down on her. There I pleased her as best as I could. She seemed to enjoy this much more than usual. After some time she announced it was time to bathe. I lit some candles in the bathroom. She entered and sat on the edge of the tub with her feet on the tub floor. She had me kneel and bow before her, between her legs. I repeated the same motions as before, only this time I was allowed to pleasure myself at the same time (I was naked and in the tub). I was close to orgasm but was not allowed to climax. When I got to her yoni she announced that it was time for me to show my utter worship of her divinity. With some word play, I professed that I would do anything for my Goddess and she unleashed her golden shower into my mouth.

Now, we had planned this before hand. This was something neither of us did, but had bashfully discussed in the past. Now it was happening. I felt that shock wave of adrenaline you get when you almost get in an accident. I felt the opposite emotions of disgust and adoration. I felt my body tense and tell me to stop letting this happen. I loved her utterly as my wife and worshipped her utterly as my Goddess, yet we are all brought up to believe that urine is ‘yucky’ and disgusting and unclean (not true if you are talking about urine right out of a healthy person’s body). With these opposite emotions swirling like yin/yang I simply gave in to it. She opened her robe further and upon her stomach was a sigil she had painted. (a sigil is a magickal symbol meant to be activated by looking at it when you are having some peak experience like orgasm, intense pain, blind rage, etc.) I stared at this while letting all the mixed emotions overtake me. I kept myself very close to climax, but did not allow it to actually happen. She petted my head like a Goddess adoring her worshipper. I could tell she really enjoyed my total submission and devotion.

As you may know, it has been said that the active ingredients of Amanita muscaria is passed into the urine and that drinking this urine can intoxicate the drinker. Well, I found this to certainly be true. I felt the effects come on, and we role played that this was because her status as the Goddess and that her divine power was inherent in any part of her, and that all of her was sacred, even her golden rain. I, as the worshipper, was in awe from the effects of her golden rain. By her divine grace I was granted the gift of being able to drink from her and enter into the nature of divinity myself. I felt effects stronger than my previous experiments and indeed the ritual context made the role-playing seem real. To us, you see, it WAS real, as real as any other illusion we all call “reality”. We made love and enjoyed the trip together as the Goddess and a human worshipper temporarily allowed access into heaven and divinity.

On one other occasion we repeated a similar ritual, only this time I ate the mushrooms and became the Great God Pan/Dionysus and she was my devoted worshipper. Even in my highly intoxicated state I knew we were just role-playing, but I actually felt like the wild horny god Pan/Dionysus. It seems that because the trip had a focus and was contained in a ritual frame, there was no confusion/fear. This had a slightly different spin on it because rather than a maternal gentle Goddess and her devoted human worshipper, I was the powerful (yet loving) God with Lust and sublimated wildness. Whereas the Goddess was gently dominating and I was eagerly submissive, the Great God was a little more domineering. Nothing extreme just subtly implied and asserted. Whereas the Goddess gently pets my head and speaks softly, the Great God gently yet firmly grips her hair and speaks lustfully and powerfully. The Goddess has her worshipper do her bidding because he so completely adores and worships her. The Great God has his worshipper do his bidding because she is in such awe of his power.

She worshipped me on her knees as I stood before her. She pleased me with her mouth. When the time came, she undressed and crawled before me to the bathroom. There she groveled and begged to be spared my divine wrath. I told her she could redeem herself by doing my bidding without question. I reached down and gripped her hair and told her to open her mouth. She pretended to resist. She shook her head and said “Oh my Lord, perhaps I can show you in some other way?” Once again I told her to open her mouth. With this I let fall my golden divine rain. She drank what she could and I showered her body with the rest. (We did not incorporate a sigil this time.) We bathed, made love, smoked a joint, and enjoyed our trip.

NOTE OF CAUTIONARY ADVISE – please do not try this act unless you are sure the urine is from a healthy person with which you are having a long-term monogamous relationship with!

Well that was a fascinating story. Simply fascinating. Thank you ambassador for your comments.

David Watts
Ambassador
The Dominion of New Leicestershire

[Mousebumples]

*snip*

Well that was a fascinating story. Simply fascinating. Thank you ambassador for your comments.

David Watts
Ambassador
The Dominion of New Leicestershire

Pretty sure it's spam. I reported it in moderation already - and if you look at the nation's post history, the only other post is the exact same post.

However, I must commend the honored ambassador from New Leicestershire for his prompt response to even such a random and unrelated comment in this debate thread.

[Krioval]

Goodness. And here I was expecting a dry recitation of the detrimental effects of ex post facto laws. I suppose nothing truly shocks me any more, though.

Ambassador Darvek-kan Tyvok
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

[New Leicestershire]

Would you like to join a new region that champions the rights of ALL its inhabitants? Where we ALL have a say in what goes on in administration from how the WA delegate votes to what topics to debate on the forums? Well I've just founded "Equality is Law" and I ask you to join the team. Gracias amigo.

Un Cordial Salude,

-King Vicente Saldana Guerrero de Compasivo Personas

I see.

Thank you ambassador. There are complimentary drinks and hors d'oeuvres at the rear of the chamber. Help yourself.

David Watts
Ambassador
The Dominion of New Leicestershire

[Sanctaria]

Would you like to join a new region that champions the rights of ALL its inhabitants? Where we ALL have a say in what goes on in administration from how the WA delegate votes to what topics to debate on the forums? Well I've just founded "Equality is Law" and I ask you to join the team. Gracias amigo.

Un Cordial Salude,

-King Vicente Saldana Guerrero de Compasivo Personas

I see.

Thank you ambassador. There are complimentary drinks and hors d'oeuvres at the rear of the chamber. Help yourself.

David Watts
Ambassador
The Dominion of New Leicestershire

I'm slightly disappointed with the Ambassador's post, as I am sure you are too Mr. Watts. Not nearly as entertaining as the previous Ambassador's intrusion and off topic remarks.

Yours etc.,

Yasminé Pontif
Minister for the World Assembly at the Department of Foreign Affairs
The Divine Republic of Sanctaria

[Quelesh]

If you wouldn't jail someone who committed an act which later had a law passed against that act, would you conversely free all people that were appropriately jailed under existing law if that law were to be repealed in, say, 20 years time?

Yes, we most certainly would and do. It would be terribly unjust, not to mention absurd, for us to continue to incarcerate people for acts that free citizens can now engage in legally.

What I think should have been included in such a resolution is the guarantee that those punished while the law was active would be required to complete their sentence if said law were repealed.

You mean that all WA member states should be required to continue incarcerating, or otherwise punishing, individuals for the full length of their original sentences, even if the acts for which they were imprisoned become legal? Our Emperor, may he be loved by the people forever, has unlimited power to pardon any individual for any crime. Your suggestion would prevent him from doing so, and is reprehensible to us.

The resolution currently at vote does nothing to prevent member states from keeping people locked up after the acts for which they were imprisoned are legalized, and should your nation choose to commit such injustice, it is still free to. But we should not be required to.

[The Rich Port]

The Rich Port votes FOR this resolution, and adds that ex post facto laws are unfair because of the fact appeals systems exist, and therefore any other way of exonerating criminals is foolhardy and a violation of natural rights and facilitation of the perserverance of crime.

[Johz]

As such, if a citizen were to take a legal substance, and it were to later become illegal, he could be put into a program of reform.

Well first, would this hypothetical citizen still be using the substance when he is placed in the "program of reform"? Or would he be placed in the program for something he did, say, as a teenager but is no longer doing?

David Watts
Ambassador
The Dominion of New Leicestershire

I was thinking of someone who had been taking it in the fairly recent past, and who may or may not be taking it now. (but without any evidence)

[Poree]

The Representative from Johz must feel real strong about his point to have repeated it three times.

[Johz]

The Representative from Johz must feel real strong about his point to have repeated it three times.

My greatest apologies. The official Computor of Johz broke. Repeatedly. All my other posts have been deleted. Although the point still stands.

[New Leicestershire]

As such, if a citizen were to take a legal substance, and it were to later become illegal, he could be put into a program of reform.

Well first, would this hypothetical citizen still be using the substance when he is placed in the "program of reform"? Or would he be placed in the program for something he did, say, as a teenager but is no longer doing?

David Watts
Ambassador
The Dominion of New Leicestershire

I was thinking of someone who had been taking it in the fairly recent past, and who may or may not be taking it now. (but without any evidence)

Well if he is still taking it then he is in violation of the law as it currently exists and he could be forced into treatment. If he had taken it at some time in the past and was no longer doing so (or there was no evidence of continued use) then no, you couldn't force him into treatment. Why would you want to? He would be innocent of any wrongdoing. Of course if he has a relapse and begins taking it again he could be prosecuted at that point.

David Watts
Ambassador
The Dominion of New Leicestershire

[Johz]

If I remember rightly, I had a fairly legitimate, if unlikely point to argue, but I've forgotten. My nation agrees to the proposal generally, though, and we wish you the greatest of all gifts, that which is luck.

The ambassador for Johz

[i]Apologies for the double post if anyone noticed.[i]

[Giant Unionized Robots]

Being bored and having nothing better to do, a giant communist robot rips a hole in the roof of the General Assembly chamber and peers inside. Its booming metallic voice resonates through the hall.

GREETINGS.

I AM ORGANIZING UNIT 22.

I COME IN PEACE.

The giant communist robot begins grabbing at various ambassadors, who all luckily manage to evade its enormous mechanical hands. The robot knocks over the podium, sending David Watts scurrying for cover behind a bronze statue of Patrick T. Olembe.

my minibar is always ready to be of assistance.

THERE IS LIQUOR HERE.

I WILL SEIZE IT IN THE NAME OF THE WORKERS AND PEASANTS.

I AM ORGANIZING UNIT 22.

The giant communist robot grabs Sen Sulla's minibar and hoists it into the air. Using the tip of its gigantic finger, the robot flips open the doors of the minibar and begins poking around inside.

[The Asylum Manager]

The Ambassador for Asylum Manager is casting its vote FOR this resolution, following suit to his Regional Delegate.

[The Rich Port]

Being bored and having nothing better to do, a giant communist robot rips a hole in the roof of the General Assembly chamber and peers inside. Its booming metallic voice resonates through the hall.

GREETINGS.

I AM ORGANIZING UNIT 22.

I COME IN PEACE.

The giant communist robot begins grabbing at various ambassadors, who all luckily manage to evade its enormous mechanical hands. The robot knocks over the podium, sending David Watts scurrying for cover behind a bronze statue of Patrick T. Olembe.

my minibar is always ready to be of assistance.

THERE IS LIQUOR HERE.

I WILL SEIZE IT IN THE NAME OF THE WORKERS AND PEASANTS.

I AM ORGANIZING UNIT 22.

The giant communist robot grabs Sen Sulla's minibar and hoists it into the air. Using the tip of its gigantic finger, the robot flips open the doors of the minibar and begins poking around inside.

LOL?