[PASSED] Chemical Weapons Protocol

[Imperializt Russia]

Because it means that NS forces will have to change and modify their equipment.
I feel wholly confident in believing that the number of NS members capable of designing CRBN reconnaissance gear, MOPP and NBC filters can be counted on the fingers of less than one hand.

Hence it's either going to be powered by wankium batteries, or be a NATO-pattern system.

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

Briefly, we would endorse this. We would also rather like it if a clause was appended stating that nothing in this resolution may be used to prevent the WA from banning Chemical Weapons outright in due course, since that would be the preferred opinion of the Ausitorian Government; but perhaps that might be considered rather contentious?

[Araraukar]

Hence it's either going to be powered by wankium batteries, or be a NATO-pattern system.

Or, since it's touching on purely roleplayed conflicts in NS, the ignore cannon.

And, again, just because thing A happens certain way in real life, doesn't mean it happens always that way in NS too. Nothing that has an effect on something else, is undetectable, and considering how we have several PMT and FT nations around here, I doubt everyone is going to have to update their gear.

"Just because it happens this way in your nation, doesn't mean it happened that way in all nations." This really ought to be repeated in every single draft debate.

[Imperializt Russia]

Like I said in the last thread, if your response to some tactical chemical weapon exposure is the Ignore Cannon, you're probably a terrible roleplayer.

For the reason I bothered to bring it up earlier ITT, and why I've bothered to weigh in on any of the three threads on the topic, if it's going to go through, I want it to go through and be correct.

[Araraukar]

Like I said in the last thread, if your response to some tactical chemical weapon exposure is the Ignore Cannon, you're probably a terrible roleplayer.

OOC: Well, I roleplay Araraukar as being ultra-pacifist, so for me the whole issue with chemical weapons is unlikely to become acute in the first place, and if the country had no choice but to go to war, they wouldn't much care about human casualties - if anything, using humans as the "biological indicators".

As for the Novichok, without actual proof of its existence in real life, it's just as much a wankonite chemical weapon, one that goes through all known defences. In the multiverse of NationStates, there's bound to be one nation or another that has superior weapons and/or superior defences, you can't account for every single possibility, since literally only the players' imagination is the limit.

[Wheeled States of Bifid]

Member nations are permitted to utilize riot control agents freely without restriction,

It feels like this one is very vulnerable to abuse.

[Imperializt Russia]

Like I said in the last thread, if your response to some tactical chemical weapon exposure is the Ignore Cannon, you're probably a terrible roleplayer.

OOC: Well, I roleplay Araraukar as being ultra-pacifist, so for me the whole issue with chemical weapons is unlikely to become acute in the first place, and if the country had no choice but to go to war, they wouldn't much care about human casualties - if anything, using humans as the "biological indicators".

As for the Novichok, without actual proof of its existence in real life, it's just as much a wankonite chemical weapon, one that goes through all known defences. In the multiverse of NationStates, there's bound to be one nation or another that has superior weapons and/or superior defences, you can't account for every single possibility, since literally only the players' imagination is the limit.

However, Novichok isn't the fevered imaginings of an internet geek with a tinfoil hat, it's disclosures from Soviet-era academics and chemical programme chiefs.
So obviously, there's bias, but the claims aren't unfounded. Both sides developed and sometimes built crazier shit.

Supposedly, the reason that Novichok may be capable of defeating current defences is that its form is as an "ultra-fine powder" rather than a gas or aerosolised liquid.
Obviously, I don't know how this betters its capabilities, but meh.

It's a claim, it's corroborated by academics unrelated to the military, it's worth taking at near-face value.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

OOC: Well, I roleplay Araraukar as being ultra-pacifist, so for me the whole issue with chemical weapons is unlikely to become acute in the first place, and if the country had no choice but to go to war, they wouldn't much care about human casualties - if anything, using humans as the "biological indicators".

As for the Novichok, without actual proof of its existence in real life, it's just as much a wankonite chemical weapon, one that goes through all known defences. In the multiverse of NationStates, there's bound to be one nation or another that has superior weapons and/or superior defences, you can't account for every single possibility, since literally only the players' imagination is the limit.

However, Novichok isn't the fevered imaginings of an internet geek with a tinfoil hat, it's disclosures from Soviet-era academics and chemical programme chiefs.
So obviously, there's bias, but the claims aren't unfounded. Both sides developed and sometimes built crazier shit.

Supposedly, the reason that Novichok may be capable of defeating current defences is that its form is as an "ultra-fine powder" rather than a gas or aerosolised liquid.
Obviously, I don't know how this betters its capabilities, but meh.

It's a claim, it's corroborated by academics unrelated to the military, it's worth taking at near-face value.

And an ex-MVD Vityaz member corroborated two out of three claims listed on Wikipedia. Specifically the defeating NATO equipment and sensors claims. It's certainly not wankonite.

And this pretty much.

[Araraukar]

Both sides developed and sometimes built crazier shit.

Enter wankonite and unobtanium. As I said before, if only imagination is the limit, then it's one and same if it's real or not.

Supposedly, the reason that Novichok may be capable of defeating current defences is that its form is as an "ultra-fine powder" rather than a gas or aerosolised liquid. Obviously, I don't know how this betters its capabilities, but meh.

It would go through gas mask filtering systems, possibly even through seams of secure clothing, but for that latter you'd probably have to basically bathe in in. Mind you, ultra-fine powder that doesn't adhere to itself/get stuck to anything with the tiniest bit of static electricity is... well, on the wankonite limit, pretty much.

It's a claim, it's corroborated by academics unrelated to the military, it's worth taking at near-face value.

And an ex-MVD Vityaz member corroborated two out of three claims listed on Wikipedia. Specifically the defeating NATO equipment and sensors claims. It's certainly not wankonite.

One person writes that into Wikipedia and it's suddenly the über-truth? Would be interested in the "academics unrelated to the military", especially if we're talking about Cold War era Soviet Union, where pretty much everything to do with "useful" sciences was related to the military one way or another. I'm not disputing the claim that some chemical weapon called Novichok exists/existed, I'm disputing the claims of "it's near-impossible to stop with NATO/USA gear" and "that's why no-one in NationStates can have no problem stopping it".

And this pretty much.

Also this.

EDIT: We're threadjacking this thread, you guys realize this, right?

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

It's a claim, it's corroborated by academics unrelated to the military, it's worth taking at near-face value.

And an ex-MVD Vityaz member corroborated two out of three claims listed on Wikipedia. Specifically the defeating NATO equipment and sensors claims. It's certainly not wankonite.

One person writes that into Wikipedia and it's suddenly the über-truth? Would be interested in the "academics unrelated to the military", especially if we're talking about Cold War era Soviet Union, where pretty much everything to do with "useful" sciences was related to the military one way or another. I'm not disputing the claim that some chemical weapon called Novichok exists/existed, I'm disputing the claims of "it's near-impossible to stop with NATO/USA gear" and "that's why no-one in NationStates can have no problem stopping it".

And may I ask which court of law this is? I'm under no circumstances obliged to dignify you with an explanation for which you will not understand and may even break some country's real laws (people got thrown into Lefortovo mind you). But I'm going to be exceedingly nice now: NS-member with certain knowledge that makes him credible regarding his service record et cetera is making the second claim.

[Alqania]

Member nations are permitted to utilize riot control agents freely without restriction,

It feels like this one is very vulnerable to abuse.

"Our thoughts exactly", agreed Princess Christine. "The Queendom would suggest that 'riot control agents' would either be banned or taken out of this proposal."

[Separatist Peoples]

Member nations are permitted to utilize riot control agents freely without restriction,

It feels like this one is very vulnerable to abuse.

D'aww, but we were hoping we could use Tabun in our CS gas as a riot control agent!

For the purpose of the resolution, though, riot control agents are pretty securely defined.

[Araraukar]

And may I ask which court of law this is?

The same that allows your side of this debate call me a bad roleplayer when I invoke roleplay functions (such as not being tied to only what gear exists in real life), but allows you to state that one man's claims on Wikipedia are the truth and nothing but the truth and must thus be obeyed in all roleplay functions hereafter.

I'm under no circumstances obliged to dignify you with an explanation

Funny, I recall saying something very similar, and getting called ignorant for it.

But, since it seems we're degenerating the discussion onto a "sniping at one another" level, I think it's time to call this off, and see if we can't concentrate on the proposal at hand. Agreed?

[Wheeled States of Bifid]

It feels like this one is very vulnerable to abuse.

D'aww, but we were hoping we could use Tabun in our CS gas as a riot control agent!

For the purpose of the resolution, though, riot control agents are pretty securely defined.

But even those agents can be dangerous if misused and #3 gives nations free rein to do just that.

[Chester Pearson]

I would appreciate the threadjack coming to an end...

Thanks.

[Separatist Peoples]

D'aww, but we were hoping we could use Tabun in our CS gas as a riot control agent!

For the purpose of the resolution, though, riot control agents are pretty securely defined.

But even those agents can be dangerous if misused and #3 gives nations free rein to do just that.

Which, to those of us who don't want to see chemical weapons restrictions, means that it is perfect as it stands. Besides, I believe the requirements to meet the "Riot control agent" in this proposal preclude serious abuse.

[Wheeled States of Bifid]

But even those agents can be dangerous if misused and #3 gives nations free rein to do just that.

Which, to those of us who don't want to see chemical weapons restrictions, means that it is perfect as it stands. Besides, I believe the requirements to meet the "Riot control agent" in this proposal preclude serious abuse.

How does telling nations they can use these agents "freely without restriction" not open it up to abuse?

[United Federation of Canada]

Which, to those of us who don't want to see chemical weapons restrictions, means that it is perfect as it stands. Besides, I believe the requirements to meet the "Riot control agent" in this proposal preclude serious abuse.

How does telling nations they can use these agents "freely without restriction" not open it up to abuse?

Riot control agents are non-lethal. Now before the argument comes up that someone might be allergic to CS gas or pepper spray, people all over are usually allegic to SOMETHING. For those people that just happen to be allergic to to a riot control agent, tough titties for them......

[Wheeled States of Bifid]

It doesn't require that someone have an allergy for them to be potentially lethal or injurious if used improperly.

[Separatist Peoples]

It doesn't require that someone have an allergy for them to be potentially lethal or injurious if used improperly.

There's a simple solution: don't riot. WA members have plenty of legally protected means of civil discourse. Riots are not one of them. So, any negative effects caused by the use of riot gas is expected, and the rioters understand this by putting themselves in a position where they are exposed to it. Its the same concept of bullets being bad for you, but we don't arrest cops who have to shoot a criminal to prevent a crime.

[Araraukar]

It doesn't require that someone have an allergy for them to be potentially lethal or injurious if used improperly.

If your nation isn't able to control the use of such chemicals right now, without any legislation in place, that's really a problem on your end, not the WA's. Going by the rational nation assumption, such chemicals, if their use is required, would be handled by personnel who know what the hell they're doing.

I mean, honestly, a regular fork (or chopsticks) can be potentially lethal or injurious if used improperly, and yet those still are allowed in most countries... *grumble*

[Wheeled States of Bifid]

It doesn't require that someone have an allergy for them to be potentially lethal or injurious if used improperly.

If your nation isn't able to control the use of such chemicals right now, without any legislation in place, that's really a problem on your end, not the WA's. Going by the rational nation assumption, such chemicals, if their use is required, would be handled by personnel who know what the hell they're doing.

I mean, honestly, a regular fork (or chopsticks) can be potentially lethal or injurious if used improperly, and yet those still are allowed in most countries... *grumble*

I'm not talking about being unable to use it properly, I'm talking about being unwilling to use it properly.

[Wheeled States of Bifid]

It doesn't require that someone have an allergy for them to be potentially lethal or injurious if used improperly.

There's a simple solution: don't riot. WA members have plenty of legally protected means of civil discourse. Riots are not one of them. So, any negative effects caused by the use of riot gas is expected, and the rioters understand this by putting themselves in a position where they are exposed to it. Its the same concept of bullets being bad for you, but we don't arrest cops who have to shoot a criminal to prevent a crime.

There's nothing in this proposal requiring there to be a riot for a nation to use these weapons. In fact as it's written a nation can use riot control agents however they want.

[Araraukar]

There's nothing in this proposal requiring there to be a riot for a nation to use these weapons. In fact as it's written a nation can use riot control agents however they want.

And without this resolution in place, there's exactly what controlling their use now?

[United Federation of Canada]

There's nothing in this proposal requiring there to be a riot for a nation to use these weapons. In fact as it's written a nation can use riot control agents however they want.

And without this resolution in place, there's exactly what controlling their use now?

Exactly.